ways to buff ottoman

[Kewlkhat]

in my games he never gets egypt, Mesopotamia, Hungary, etc. like they did historically

so i have proposals for ways to buff ottomans.

1. ai ottomans should get cores on mamluks in the mission tree. historically they take all mamluk one war, maybe even give this to player, but maybe it op (but ottoman probs should be op as noob nation)
2. make the missions give them substantial temporary (around 50 years) core cost, aggressive expansion, and over extension reductions, so the ai is more likely to expand faster
3. make the missions also give them more temporary significant combat and siege bonuses (right now they have discipline and 33% siege from the age ability, i think they should get some siege ability before conquering Constantinople
4. increase their starting development, or make their mission give a good amount of free development


edit: rather then free cores on mamluks, instead i think the missions should give them an 'enforce personal union' cob on mamluks, and then the mission for doing this allows them to instantly inherit them

 

[Sidolowka]

All the arbitrary buffs in the world won't fix the Ottomans, because the AI is too [badword] to understand that sieging Corfu with 50k in their Albania/Venice war isn't that great of an idea.

And yes, the Ottomans just got dismantled this way by Albania/Venice/the Mamluks in my last Savoy campaign.

Instead of throwing random bandaid patches at them, make the AI more hostile and risk-taking. Giving the Ottomans free cores on the entirety of the Mamluks would only serve to buff the player, since you could then vassalise the Ottomans for reconquest CB over the entire Middle East.

Considering how it took two (difficult) sieges to take Constantinople, I'd say that taking it should be the trigger that does give the Ottomans their siege ability, instead of prematurely buffing them. Move the 33% siege ability from its age ability to a 50 year modifier for any Turkish nation that fells the City of the World's Desire.

This way the Ottomans won't have their super sieges cock-blocked 15 years into its usage by the reformation spawning in 1480, while also giving flavour to a resurgent Rum.

And if you really think the Ottomans need a dev buff, rework Anatolia, which would also have the effect of touching on the minor Beyliks, which are one of the last nations in Europe to have zero flavour. Karaman and co. are basically just free dev for the Ottomans in the AI's hands anyways.

 

[Blk82]

The issue isn't so much bad AI decision-making, but the AI death-spiraling from the cost of easy wars due to the mercenary re-work. Before 1.30, the Ottoman AI would often blob well into Ethiopia and extend into Southeast Asia, following the Mamluks. In 1.24, they would extend up the Urals and cut off Russia more often than not.

 

[Kewlkhat]

All the arbitrary buffs in the world won't fix the Ottomans, because the AI is too [badword] to understand that sieging Corfu with 50k in their Albania/Venice war isn't that great of an idea.

And yes, the Ottomans just got dismantled this way by Albania/Venice/the Mamluks in my last Savoy campaign.

Instead of throwing random bandaid patches at them, make the AI more hostile and risk-taking. Giving the Ottomans free cores on the entirety of the Mamluks would only serve to buff the player, since you could then vassalise the Ottomans for reconquest CB over the entire Middle East.

Considering how it took two (difficult) sieges to take Constantinople, I'd say that taking it should be the trigger that does give the Ottomans their siege ability, instead of prematurely buffing them. Move the 33% siege ability from its age ability to a 50 year modifier for any Turkish nation that fells the City of the World's Desire.

This way the Ottomans won't have their super sieges cock-blocked 15 years into its usage by the reformation spawning in 1480, while also giving flavour to a resurgent Rum.

And if you really think the Ottomans need a dev buff, rework Anatolia, which would also have the effect of touching on the minor Beyliks, which are one of the last nations in Europe to have zero flavour. Karaman and co. are basically just free dev for the Ottomans in the AI's hands anyways.

its not a 'random buff.' it is giving them cores on land they historically took. right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE for even A PLAYER to replicate the way the ottomans took mamluks (too much warscore for one war). giving ottomans cores on mamluks from missions will 1) make it so ai only needs to win 1 war on them (100%), and 2) incentivize the ai does it. when they have all the land, they will be much, much stronger and can use the land to go into other conquests they did. I NEVER see ottomans get any big whatsoever.

as for "player vassalize and then use cores," you can easily add event that if they get vassalized they lose the cores if they dont own the land.

 

[Sidolowka]

its not a 'random buff.' it is giving them cores on land they historically took. right now, it is IMPOSSIBLE for even A PLAYER to replicate the way the ottomans took mamluks (too much warscore for one war). giving ottomans cores on mamluks from missions will 1) make it so ai only needs to win 1 war on them (100%), and 2) incentivize the ai does it. when they have all the land, they will be much, much stronger and can use the land to go into other conquests they did. I NEVER see ottomans get any big whatsoever.

as for "player vassalize and then use cores," you can easily add event that if they get vassalized they lose the cores if they dont own the land.

I know fully well what happened in history.

Problem being it's impossible to emulate with EUIV's current mechanics. Reconquest only reduces province war score cost by 25%, meaning that the Ottomans will still require more than one war to fully annex the Mamluks.

What I'm saying is that the bigger problem is how incompetent the AI is. They'll throw their entire navy and a 30k stack on Cyprus instead of going for Cairo, because it simply doesn't understand that 'weakest war participant' does not always equal 'first priority war target'.

The AI debt spiral problem just accentuates this issue, while the merc glitches sometimes just straight up cripple the Ottomans.

I.E. Fix the AI so that it doesn't trip over its own shoelaces, then the Ottomans will go back to blobbing like they used to in previous patches.

Maybe even work on diplomatic attitudes so that the Ottomans don't kneecap themselves by allying AQ or by wasting a dip slot on Gazikumukh/Granada.

 

[Kewlkhat]

I know fully well what happened in history.

Problem being it's impossible to emulate with EUIV's current mechanics. Reconquest only reduces province war score cost by 25%, meaning that the Ottomans will still require more than one war to fully annex the Mamluks.

What I'm saying is that the bigger problem is how incompetent the AI is. They'll throw their entire navy and a 30k stack on Cyprus instead of going for Cairo, because it simply doesn't understand that 'weakest war participant' does not always equal 'first priority war target'.

The AI debt spiral problem just accentuates this issue, while the merc glitches sometimes just straight up cripple the Ottomans.

I.E. Fix the AI so that it doesn't trip over its own shoelaces, then the Ottomans will go back to blobbing like they used to in previous patches.

Maybe even work on diplomatic attitudes so that the Ottomans don't kneecap themselves by allying AQ or by wasting a dip slot on Gazikmukh/Granada.

i have nothing against fixing the ai. but 'make the ai better' 1. is something so obvious to devs, reason it hasnt happened yet is it is hard, 2) wouldnt fully solve the problem, since over extention and warscore cost prevent them taking so much land in one war.

maybe it would be better if they got an 'enforce personal union' cb on them, and then the mission for doing that allows them to inherit them instantly

 

[Entrone]

edit: rather then free cores on mamluks, instead i think the missions should give them an 'enforce personal union' cob on mamluks, and then the mission for doing this allows them to instantly inherit them

There is no need for adding Ottoman cores to Egyptian provinces unhistorically. It wasn't a reconquest, and even with reconquest cb you couldn't take it in 1 war. Neither there's need for unbalanced bonuses to solve a problem that plagues every other country aswell, the Ottomans just meet it more often.

What I'm saying is that the bigger problem is how incompetent the AI is. They'll throw their entire navy and a 30k stack on Cyprus instead of going for Cairo, because it simply doesn't understand that 'weakest war participant' does not always equal 'first priority war target'.

The AI debt spiral problem just accentuates this issue, while the merc glitches sometimes just straight up cripple the Ottomans.

I.E. Fix the AI so that it doesn't trip over its own shoelaces, then the Ottomans will go back to blobbing like they used to in previous patches.

Yes the AI should be improved further, and the devs I'm sure are working on it a lot.

Instead of throwing random bandaid patches at them, make the AI more hostile and risk-taking. Giving the Ottomans free cores on the entirety of the Mamluks would only serve to buff the player, since you could then vassalise the Ottomans for reconquest CB over the entire Middle East.

Considering how it took two (difficult) sieges to take Constantinople, I'd say that taking it should be the trigger that does give the Ottomans their siege ability, instead of prematurely buffing them. Move the 33% siege ability from its age ability to a 50 year modifier for any Turkish nation that fells the City of the World's Desire.

This way the Ottomans won't have their super sieges cock-blocked 15 years into its usage by the reformation spawning in 1480, while also giving flavour to a resurgent Rum.

Now this is how a smooth but effective improvement looks like.

And if you really think the Ottomans need a dev buff, rework Anatolia, which would also have the effect of touching on the minor Beyliks, which are one of the last nations in Europe to have zero flavour. Karaman and co. are basically just free dev for the Ottomans in the AI's hands anyways.

I don't think the Ottomans would need to be buffed more than a few provinces, but the rest of Anatolia, Balkans and the Caucasus surely does.


Regarding the defeat of the Mamluks, I think an event like the Burgundian Inheritance could be done: If certain conditions are met (for example a big decisive victory over the Mamluks by the Ottomans between 1500-1550) an event could fire that cedes most of the Mamluk lands to the Ottomans.

I think this would be the most appealing solution, since much like the Burgundian Inheritance it takes out a country that can't be conquered in 1 or 2 wars yet required to be conquered fast for the historical flow, and boosts one of the most important great powers in the timespan.

 

[Kewlkhat]

There is no need for adding Ottoman cores to Egyptian provinces unhistorically. It wasn't a reconquest, and even with reconquest cb you couldn't take it in 1 war. Neither there's need for unbalanced bonuses to solve a problem that plagues every other country aswell, the Ottomans just meet it more often.


Yes the AI should be improved further, and the devs I'm sure are working on it a lot.


Now this is how a smooth but effective improvement looks like.


I don't think the Ottomans would need to be buffed more than a few provinces, but the rest of Anatolia, Balkans and the Caucasus surely does.


Regarding the defeat of the Mamluks, I think an event like the Burgundian Inheritance could be done: If certain conditions are met (for example a big decisive victory over the Mamluks by the Ottomans between 1500-1550) an event could fire that cedes most of the Mamluk lands to the Ottomans.

I think this would be the most appealing solution, since much like the Burgundian Inheritance it takes out a country that can't be conquered in 1 or 2 wars yet required to be conquered fast for the historical flow, and boosts one of the most important great powers in the timespan.

wrong. it doesnt matter how smart you make the ai, they cant replicate historical conquests. not to mention, YOU DONT THINK THE DEVS WANT THE AI TO BE SMART? If i could magically make the ai smarter, i probably wouldnt make this suggestion. but it aint so easy to make ai smarter. so im giving real solutions instead of meaningless "I want this to be better!"

 

[Entrone]

wrong. it doesnt matter how smart you make the ai, they cant replicate historical conquests.

Did you even read my suggestion on the event? Through an event it could be possible to replicate the conquest.
Otherwise it is impossible doesen't matter what kind of CB you are using.

"I want this to be better!"

Actually this is exactly what you did. Your suggestion doesen't pay attention to anything else than your obsession that the Ottos are too weak. Guess what. they are not weak at all.
No, they don't need development buff.
No, they don't need more combat buffs.
No, they don't need unhistorical cores.
They just need their algorithms to be updated.

On the sidenote, there are many other conquests that can't be replicated in the game, some of them have even bigger impact, like the Spanish steamrolling the Americas in 100 years. Compared to that this is completely achieveable.

 

[Blk82]

wrong. it doesnt matter how smart you make the ai, they cant replicate historical conquests. not to mention, YOU DONT THINK THE DEVS WANT THE AI TO BE SMART? If i could magically make the ai smarter, i probably wouldnt make this suggestion. but it aint so easy to make ai smarter. so im giving real solutions instead of meaningless "I want this to be better!"

I would agree with you that "it needs to be about 20% cooler" is not a valid suggestion. However, the AI is actively worse in the recent patches, mainly due the devs messing with non-broken mechanics. Even just one version ago, the Ottomans were consistently defeating the Mamluks in the Near East. (Of course, the Mamluks would escape to Southeast Asia and the South Pacific and leave a Arabic Sunni Australia as their legacy, but that is another issue.)

 

[L0rd0fLight]

in my games he never gets egypt, Mesopotamia, Hungary, etc. like they did historically

so i have proposals for ways to buff ottomans.

1. ai ottomans should get cores on mamluks in the mission tree. historically they take all mamluk one war, maybe even give this to player, but maybe it op (but ottoman probs should be op as noob nation)
2. make the missions give them substantial temporary (around 50 years) core cost, aggressive expansion, and over extension reductions, so the ai is more likely to expand faster
3. make the missions also give them more temporary significant combat and siege bonuses (right now they have discipline and 33% siege from the age ability, i think they should get some siege ability before conquering Constantinople
4. increase their starting development, or make their mission give a good amount of free development


edit: rather then free cores on mamluks, instead i think the missions should give them an 'enforce personal union' cob on mamluks, and then the mission for doing this allows them to instantly inherit them

cores? If anything it should be a PU or subjugation CB and they should not be inherited, Egypt was practically its own kingdom within the Ottomans

 

[moscal]

Status Egypth in Turkish Empire wasnt simple "this land is my". This was a form of client sub-state. So "free cores" are extremal stupid.

 

[Dishwasher15]

Um the ottomans already have a ridiculous number of buffs. Good national ideas for the beginning. Free claims(last I remembered). A unit pip advantage. Janissaries. And whatever else that seem to make it so that even though I could beat them in earlier patches they seem nearly unstoppable now(my theory is stealth modifiers. For example I don't know how the ai keeps managing to get 3 star generals whenever they feel like it). I remember there was a developer game where it was like 5 human opponents against just the ottoman ai and they had to pull out non stop shenanigans to beat them. Like I vaguely remember a 20 year war or something. They need a substantial nerf I think. I wonder if there is some kind of ai hesitation to war with them too providing another buff. But I stated earlier that a nerf wouldn't happen because ottoman are like newbie island I suppose. I just have to remember not to attack them until like 1700 but I usually don't play that long. I remember that I had a recent war where I had 5 percent more discipline. There was a battle where they lost like 1000 troops and I lost like 20,000(I think I had a mil tech advantage too). Plus there seems to be some kind of manpower cheat too. The ottoman was at 0 manpower and their armies wouldn't decrease even with all of the conflict. The cheating was really bad and almost made me stop playing the game. I think if I remember I will just cover up the ottoman with a custom nation because they are a cheating nation as far as I'm concerned.

 

[StriderLS]

I didn't want to down vote but Ottomans doesn't really need a buff. All Ottomans got was direct or indirect nerfs since I began playing this game but they are still formidable if not the strongest beginning position.

Ottomans require a better AI. If only AI half decently uses the power in his hands, it's enough.

Edit:
@Op, requesting no new, unnecessary nerfs is one thing, demanding illogical and unnecessary buffs with a bad attitude is completely another thing. After reading rest of the thread I strongly disagree with your suggestions. Ottomans beginning position is fine as is.

@Dishwasher15,

I disagree. The myth of "Ottomans are undefeatable cheating mega buff ez tag" is plain wrong and not even funny anymore.

Ottomans slacken recruitment to get manpower, hiring mercenaries to continue war is not a cheat, it's something every nation can do....

Sorry but I simply can't be bothered to go on. I'm out.