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Might it be a possibility in option_b that Genoa cedes it anyway, but gets a core? That way it'll be easier to get it back for Genoa if they want it, but the OE will get the province either way unless they lose the war.
 
|AXiN| said:
Might it be a possibility in option_b that Genoa cedes it anyway, but gets a core? That way it'll be easier to get it back for Genoa if they want it, but the OE will get the province either way unless they lose the war.
Click to expand...
I rather not have a b option than handing out a core with no historical back-up. I'd like to get more peoples' opinions first, since I'm unsure of the best, most popular, way.
 
Norrefeldt said:
A suggestion:

Code: 
event = {
	id = 174xxx
	random = no
	country = GEN
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 465 data = -1 } #Kerch
		owned = { province = 357 data = TUR } #Thrace
		NOT = { cot = 465 }
		NOT = { 
			OR = {
				owned = { province = 464 data = -1 } #Kaffa
				owned = { province = 463 data = -1 } #Crimea
				owned = { province = 466 data = -1 } #Azov
				}
			}
	}

	date = { day = 5 month = january year = 1450 } #was lost 1475
	offset = 700
	deathdate = { day = 5 month = january year = 1820 }

	name = "Genoa lose its' colonies in the Black Sea"
	desc = " "
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "We cannot keep these outpost"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 465 }
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "It's worth fighting for"
		command = { type = war  which = TUR } 
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
	}
}
Click to expand...

My constructive comments on the Kerch cesion event :) :

- I agree with the trigger
- Why is the date 25 years before it happened? Historic date should be preferred.
- I am uncertain about option b = war. I don't care about a human player, but about 2 AI, where anything can happen, from Ottoman presence in Italy to Genoa taking control of Smyrna. So far we have been able to live without a Kerch cesion, so the alternative could be a more modest penalty to Genoa, perhaps stability and diplomatic (relations) and a long CB to OE unless Kerch is a core (I don't remember). After all Genoa never went to war with OE so it is very ahistoric.
- Perhaps there is a typo in the name description: shouldn't it be "Genoa loses its colonies in the Black Sea"?
 
Norrefeldt said:
I rather not have a b option than handing out a core with no historical back-up. I'd like to get more peoples' opinions first, since I'm unsure of the best, most popular, way.
Click to expand...
I for one like the secede province but get core solution (otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it earlier), since the player have to fight for the control and doesn't get penalized BB wise for it. For the AI it properly wont matter since an AI Genoa wont be able to defeat the OE. And that way we assure that the province if seceded regradless of which option the AI picks.
 
Fodoron said:
- I am uncertain about option b = war. I don't care about a human player, but about 2 AI, where anything can happen, from Ottoman presence in Italy to Genoa taking control of Smyrna. So far we have been able to live without a Kerch cesion, so the alternative could be a more modest penalty to Genoa, perhaps stability and diplomatic (relations) and a long CB to OE unless Kerch is a core (I don't remember). After all Genoa never went to war with OE so it is very ahistoric.
Click to expand...
Maybe two sets :
one "ai = yes" without b option
one "ai = no" with b option as it is


|AXiN| said:
Might it be a possibility in option_b that Genoa cedes it anyway, but gets a core? That way it'll be easier to get it back for Genoa if they want it, but the OE will get the province either way unless they lose the war.
Click to expand...
No, I agree with Norrefeldt's point of view.


Norrefeldt said:
That's also by I was reluctant to include it. IRL Abkhazia is rather far from Kerch, and would holding an area without important port be enough stop this from happening? I don't feel very strongly about this, and can change it.
Click to expand...
Not adding Abkhazia could be hardly understandable, just because the provinces are adjacent, even if Abkhazia is "far" from Kerch.


Norrefeldt said:
Added trigger that OE has to hold Thrace.
Click to expand...
OK.
Btw, could COT in Kerch disappear by event if ottomans don't hold Thrace?
=> Is it in Byzantium Fantasia?
 
Sute]{h said:
I for one like the secede province but get core solution (otherwise I wouldn't have suggested it earlier), since the player have to fight for the control and doesn't get penalized BB wise for it. For the AI it properly wont matter since an AI Genoa wont be able to defeat the OE. And that way we assure that the province if seceded regradless of which option the AI picks.
Click to expand...
And then another event to lose the core if it's ever retaken? While getting a core makes it possible to fight for it, it wouldn't be according to the concept of cores as we have now. I'm inclined to have no option b. After all a Genoa player should try to stop OE from closing down Kerch in the first place, after that it was a (historically) lost case to try to keep the Black Sea possessions. In the game it will be the same, after the COT is lost there's little reason to try to face the problems of keeping Kerch.

Fodoron said:
- Why is the date 25 years before it happened? Historic date should be preferred.
- I am uncertain about option b = war. I don't care about a human player, but about 2 AI, where anything can happen, from Ottoman presence in Italy to Genoa taking control of Smyrna. So far we have been able to live without a Kerch cesion, so the alternative could be a more modest penalty to Genoa, perhaps stability and diplomatic (relations) and a long CB to OE unless Kerch is a core (I don't remember). After all Genoa never went to war with OE so it is very ahistoric.
- Perhaps there is a typo in the name description: shouldn't it be "Genoa loses its colonies in the Black Sea"?
Click to expand...
You are right, it should be 1475 as start year. In some way A and B must be balanced, if we are to have two options. It was a typo.

YodaMaster said:
Not adding Abkhazia could be hardly understandable, just because the provinces are adjacent, even if Abkhazia is "far" from Kerch.

Btw, could COT in Kerch disappear by event if ottomans don't hold Thrace?
=> Is it in Byzantium Fantasia?
Click to expand...
No the distance arguement is too weak, but what about Abkhazia having no port?
Anyone can close down Kerch/open Thrace COT by owning the Bosporos provinces, not just OE.
 
Text:

After the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, it became increasingly difficult and to maintain the Genoese possessions in the Black Sea. The Bank of San Giorgio in Genoa was administrating the holdings since 1453, the most important strongholds were the two fortresses Cembalao and Sudak, and the city Kaffa. In 1475 a large Turkish fleet under Grand Vizier Keduk Akhmet Pasha arrived to conduct a naval landing and started to besiege Kaffa with Tatar aid. After five days Kaffa surrendered and 500 Genoese families were sent to Constantinople, many leaders manage to flee to Mangup, including the governor Antonietto da Cabella and the general Francisco Guasconcini.
 
Norrefeldt said:
In some way A and B must be balanced, if we are to have two options.
Click to expand...

I am unsure how option b balances the event. I am very reluctant to recommend forcing wars on the AI, as the results are unpredictable. You are thinking on giving the human player a tough choice so not to disfavor the stupid AI forced to cede Kerch. I look at it from the point of view that in 95% of the EU2 games Genoa and OE are played by AIs.

Except when I am playing the nation, I like to see the situation evolving more or less historically for the rest of the nations. The small percentage of games where the event imposed war between Genoa and the OE might lead to weird results, adds to the thousands of similar events everywhere. The cesion of Kerch might be a step in the right direction, but the war is a step in the wrong direction, as there was no war between them.

There were wars between OE and Venice over Euboea (Ionia), Crete and Cyprus, and yet in those cases, we do not impose wars on them, and it is my opinion that very wisely. The AI knows better when to go to war.

If Kerch is not ceded, it is not the end of the world. We have played the situation lots of times and Genoa usually loses Kerch anyway. A core, wether temporary or not, might still do the trick.
 
Good points. I think the development was to long gone 1475 to stop the inevitable. A player has two chances: stopping Ottoman control of the Bosporos or expand it's possessions north of a Black Sea. So it isn't totally deterministic. Added an event for OE, since a player wont get a message when Kerch is ceded to them, and I used it for populating Constantinople a bit more. More comments are welcome.

Other changes I had in mind:
  1. To give Theodoros an AI file, with GEN in the hit list (since they fought several wars 1419-75).
  2. Downgrade Alexis (1403-1443 from 779 to 557), he's the best monarch in Europe 1419 right now, yet I have read nothing about him, and nothing have been presented here.
  3. New CoA seem to be needed for Theodoros.
  4. If you start digging in genealogical sources, are there any fantasy monarchs? Otherwise we should get a few IMO.

Code: 
event = {
	id = 174022
	random = no
	country = GEN
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 465 data = -1 } #Kerch
		owned = { province = 357 data = TUR } #Thrace
		NOT = { cot = 465 }
		NOT = { 
			OR = {
				owned = { province = 464 data = -1 } #Kaffa
				owned = { province = 463 data = -1 } #Crimea
				owned = { province = 466 data = -1 } #Azov
				owned = { province = 469 data = -1 } #Abkhazia
				}
			}
	}

	date = { day = 5 month = january year = 1475 } 
	offset = 100
	deathdate = { day = 5 month = january year = 1820 }

	name = "Genoa loses its colonies in the Black Sea"
	desc = "After the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, it became increasingly difficult for Genoa to maintain its' possessions in the Black Sea. The Bank of San Giorgio in Genoa was administrating the holdings since 1453, the most important strongholds were the two fortresses Chembalo and Sudak, and the city Kaffa. In 1475 a large Turkish fleet under Grand Vizier Keduk Akhmet Pasha arrived to conduct a naval landing and started to besiege Kaffa with Tatar aid. After five days Kaffa surrendered and 500 Genoese families were sent to Constantinople, many leaders manage to flee to Mangup, including the governor Antonietto da Cabella and the general Francisco Guasconcini."
	style = 2

	action_a = {
		name = "We cannot keep these outposts"
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 465 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = TUR value = 60 }
		command = { type = badboy value = -1 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 301009 } #OE event
	}
}



event = {
	id = 301009 #triggered by GEN174022
	random = no
	country = TUR
	name = "Conquest of Genoese strongholds"
	desc = "After the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans, it became increasingly difficult for Genoa to maintain its possessions in the Black Sea. The Bank of San Giorgio in Genoa was administrating the holdings since 1453, the most important strongholds were the two fortresses Chembalo and Sudak, and the city Kaffa. In 1475 a large Turkish fleet under Grand Vizier Keduk Akhmet Pasha arrived to conduct a naval landing and started to besiege Kaffa with Tatar aid. After five days Kaffa surrendered and 500 Genoese families were sent to Constantinople, many leaders manage to flee to Mangup, including the governor Antonietto da Cabella and the general Francisco Guasconcini."
 	style = 1
	action_a ={			
		name = "It is ours"
		command = { type = population which = 469 value = -2000 }
		command = { type = population which = 357 value = 2000 }
		command = { type = relation which = GEN value = -100 }		
	}
}
 
Last edited:
Very nice job.
One thing : Event 174022 name should be "Genoa loses its colonies in the Black Sea" instead of "Genoa loses its' colonies in the Black Sea" (quote to be suppressed)

EDIT (I was editing when Fodoron posted his following comment) : Just a suggestion : when I play, I don't want to read event files in order to discover things when they happen... (too bad, I know too much about Genoa now...)
Maybe should a Genoese human player have a warning when Thrace becomes ottoman and Kerch loses its COT in order to react before it's too late (ie. if he didn't expand in the area).
=> no need for a temporary CB. On the other hand, The CB could be exploited to take Smyrna (or whatever province more "valuable" than Kerch)
 
Last edited:
Sorry to be such a pain, but if option b is scraped (I am fine with that), I would give Genoa a CB for a couple of years. It is unlikely to result in a AI war but would give the human player the opportunity to recover Kerch by force if he feels like it (or take some other land in Greece in exchange, Kerch is awfully far for 1475 fleets). Otherwise many people might feel robbed by an event. After all, Genoa was internationally justified to recover her possessions, she was just incapable.
 
Thanks for your comments. It's not a pain at all! :) I think a temp CB is motivated, and they will still pay the full aggressive badboy for any province retaken. We could make a new event for Genoa if OE take Constantinople as you say, where the COT is removed (it's in the OE event right now), Casa di San Giorgio take control of Kerch and the text explains the difficult situation for these colonies. A better way to remove the COT as well. I'll fix the grammar, thanks.
 
Well should Genoa get BB points for retaking "their" possessions? Perhaps an event giving VP and a 2 point BB reduction for retaking Kerch after your event has triggered? Unlikely for an AI I know, but a player might do it.

Alternatively your current event could simply give a 1-2 point BB reduction. That way a player is "compensated" for his loss. Also is would be somewhat realistic that you are percieved as less warmongering if you accept the loss of a province without as much as a fight. Also had the province been lost in a war there would have been a one point BB reduction... which I don't think there is in the case of seceding a province.
 
The trigger is a bit problematic. As I noted earlier in the thread, Azov, "Kerch," and Kaffa were all held by Genoa, and all were seized by the OE in 1475.

Also, I don't know about the population in "Kerch" and Azov, but the majority of the population in Kaffa was Armenian.
 
chegitz guevara said:
The trigger is a bit problematic. As I noted earlier in the thread, Azov, "Kerch," and Kaffa were all held by Genoa, and all were seized by the OE in 1475.

Also, I don't know about the population in "Kerch" and Azov, but the majority of the population in Kaffa was Armenian.
Click to expand...
So, what do you suggest? Removing the possibility for Genoa to save their possessions by holding several provinces? Holding two provinces would mean holding vast larger areas, and manpower/wealth, than they did historically.

From googling the population seemed to be a mix of tatars, armenians, alan and gothic decendants and greeks. After Ottoman takeover they Christians became "Greek" and the muslims aligned themselves with the Tatars.
 
Here's a shieldset for Feodoro/Theodoro....

shield_feodoro.bmp

smallshield_feodoro.bmp

flag_feodoro.bmp
 
Nice work Birger (as always).

May I suggest something else based on that :

krym_o.gif


It's the Krym Republic modern one but :
"Griffin is the most often used symbol of the North of the territory by the Black Sea heraldic. It is known as the "emblem" of Khersones and Pantikapei, one can see its portrayal on the old seals, jewelry and buckles of that." (from www.heraldry.com.ua)

Note : Pantikapei is ancient Kerch (outside Theodoros territory)

The Griffin is also in russian Sevastopol (near ancient Chersonese) but this city is very recent (XVIIIth century) :

sevast_r.gif


or

sevastop.jpg


I admit I didn't find any real Theodoros heraldry (only archeological photos... and Mangup Kale - Feodoro is only ruins...). In this area, most ancient avalaible CoAs seem to start with russian period...

What do you think of the Griffin idea?

Maybe gold griffin on red background (=> very similar to Birger's work)
 
Yodamaster: If you go back to one of the first pages, BJ found a CoA of the last ruling family of Gothia, who emigrated to Russia. The set he posted is based on one of the devices on that.
 
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