Suggestions From A Female Gamer

[child_of_air]

I'm not sure if Paradox wants to or cares about attracting female players at all, but I'm going to assume that they do. (Who doesn't want to increase their fan base?) I frequent some reddit forums and other communities for the game, and most of the other female gamers that I've been talking to agree with me about some things that we would like to see changed. I'm sure that quite a few male gamers would also get on board with these changes too, given that they would make the game more dynamic and add depth.

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Edited to add- Since writing this I think points #2 and #3 are more important. However, I think point #1 is still a very intriguing idea and I would love to see it implemented.

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing the player of events at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often gave them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

3. Spouses, and the player's relationships with them, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming expansion and I really love the game. I just think it should be expanded upon a bit to include more interesting interactions when the realm is at peace, as it sometimes is. There is a huge emphasis on family and dynasty, but that exact same family interaction falls a bit short. Thanks so much for reading this and thank you for your hard work.

 

[TempestM]

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners

Should sons be able too?

2 and 3 they'll probably plan to fill out only with dlcs eventually, like in CK2 with Horse Lords (i think) they added event with a daughter killing her husband (once that was her brother lol) and running away with some mercenary captain

 

[mjohnson85]

Can you cite plentiful examples for #1? Having read a significant amount of time period specific history, I don't remember this being a thing, outside of maybe rare examples and certain locations.

 

[Drazer]

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners.

I never heard of that either.

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances.

3. Spouses, both male and female, are also pretty empty.

That is a problem with all characters in the game. I don't usually remember the names of my rivals, family members, vassals, etc. Most of time, I usually only care about alliances and genetic traits when searching for a marriage for my character or his family.

I don't think adding more events is the solution to this problem. This is a game about dynasties, I don't want to get an event about a grand child being born if that is not important to dynasty survival.

In my opinion, there's a better solution to this problem: What if game relationships have traits like Darkest Dungeon 2? 1) Maybe I have an abusive relationship with my wife, she will give me tons of stress; 2)perhaps my heir has a huge inferiority complex in relation to me and that's something that I have to fix in other to make him a better adult; 3) perhaps my daughter is revolted against me, because I forced her to marry an old fool. Maybe she starts to manipulate her husband against me.

In that case, you see that relationships become something serious that I have to pay attention to during the game and not just flavor text.

 

[Drstrangelove5]

Medieval Marriage: Noblewomen vs. Peasants

Noble Women: Noble children were often betrothed in infancy. A Princeton professor, Lawrence Stone, stated these betrothals were contracts “by which children were bartered like cattle” (Searle). Th…

legioilynx.com

I've found many sources that agree with the one I linked. According to this article the following is clear:

1) for Noble Women: "Not only did a woman have no choice of whom she married, but once married she came under her husband’s control and she was not allowed to divorce him." Noble women were typically betrothed as minors and forced to marry if there was a betrothal contract.

2) for Peasant Women: "When a peasant woman did reach an appropriate age for courtship, she would most likely court a young man from the same village and would do so publicly." Peasant women were often unmarried until an adult, and were given more freedom to find and choose a husband.

So, the two groups had distinctly different experiences.

Historically, noble females (during the middle ages) didn't have free choice, while peasant females did. Since the females in the game mostly are from nobility, the game has it "mostly" right. On the other hand, it might make it more historical if at least some adult peasants (male or female) could make an independent choice, perhaps based upon their own traits and circumstance, perhaps also including their own opinions, preferences, and desires.

 

[DukeLeto42]

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of either children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Please change this, if you change anything!

Consent was certainly framed as a necessity for marriage, but this is where things get complicated. We today would frame "consent" as, well, consensual - individuals should be free from external pressures to conform and "play their part." For medieval marriages, this was not the case, and there were many ways to leverage social and familial pressures to drive someone to say "yes," and a strong culture of dynastic politics children were steeped in from birth in which marriages were political arrangements more than anything. This of course does not mean that rulers were blind to the fact that both prospective partners were going to have their own opinions, and that a reasonably acceptable match was important both to keep strife out of the ruling family and to ensure a, uh, "productive" union.

Mechanically, and without a massive change to the game's systems, this could be addressed in part by having marriage selection not just take into account traits. A preview of their respective opinions in the marriage selection screen, with very clear indicators on how this will effect the marriage and its prospects (will this improve the chance of having kids? Harm it? Are they going to try to stab each other as soon as possible?) could help the marriage process feel more like a process in which the prospective partners at least have a voice.

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing them of things at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello, would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often game them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

This is an excellent idea, making family networks feel like an important part of the game and showing how family members use their positions as power brokers and could either support or undermine their spouse.

3. Spouses, both male and female, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

In line with what I put forward above, making your direct family's relationships much more present and influential is an excellent idea, and again would make choosing partners that are actually amenable to each other so much more important.

 

[plansburn]

I like the idea of some combination of traits leading to people choosing to elope or flee the court if married or betrothed to someone they dislike or even hate.

 

[Blodhevn]

Medieval Marriage: Noblewomen vs. Peasants

Noble Women: Noble children were often betrothed in infancy. A Princeton professor, Lawrence Stone, stated these betrothals were contracts “by which children were bartered like cattle” (Searle). Th…

legioilynx.com

I've found many sources that agree with the one I linked. According to this article the following is clear:

1) for Noble Women: "Not only did a woman have no choice of whom she married, but once married she came under her husband’s control and she was not allowed to divorce him." Noble women were typically betrothed as minors and forced to marry if there was a betrothal contract.

2) for Peasant Women: "When a peasant woman did reach an appropriate age for courtship, she would most likely court a young man from the same village and would do so publicly." Peasant women were often unmarried until an adult, and were given more freedom to find and choose a husband.

So, the two groups had distinctly different experiences.

Historically, noble females (during the middle ages) didn't have free choice, while peasant females did. Since the females in the game mostly are from nobility, the game has it "mostly" right. On the other hand, it might make it more historical if at least some adult peasants (male or female) could make an independent choice, perhaps based upon their own traits and circumstance, perhaps also including their own opinions, preferences, and desires.

The pleasants do have a choice, until they are courtiers. Guest, wanderers etc make their own deals.

 

[Drstrangelove5]

The peasants do have a choice, until they are courtiers. Guest, wanderers etc make their own deals.

Ahh... good catch.

 

[tilly]

hm. its already sort of been covered, but one of the issues is that it really did suck to be a woman in the middle ages. this did under no circumstances stop certain women from speaking out or trying to fight back, let me be clear - women were never really as a whole demurely cutting about accepting everything like thats just the way it is, but the systems of the game at present arent deep or complex enough to properly model the way women in history made efforts to rebel against the hand they were dealt

one of the most obvious ways to give women more life would be a regency mechanic with, uh, a little more depth than what ck2 has on offer. concerns about female rulership meant that in a lot of places, women were straight up just not allowed to hold land. the game is actually kinder about this than the reality of the situation, where women would typically only be able to manage their inheritence by proxy via their husbands, but i dont think that should be changed at all, that would suck for female players. there are, of course, well known counter-examples like matilda of tuscany, but you do need to understand these are atypical and usually they had to fight tooth and nail for it, its genuinely hard to overstate what a feat it was that these women actually managed to be begrudgingly accepted as direct rulers of their own property. concerns about female authority were so severe that even convents were viewed with a sort of nervous skepticism, and the only way women were allowed to actually take the cloth was by having them be technically subservient to the abbot of a nearby monastery - which is wild considering how many princesses got nun'd whenever there was any difficulty at all with arranging a marriage for them

the exception to all this was when husbands died before their children came of age, women would be expected to administer whatever their sons stood to inherit until they were old enough to do it themselves (usually while also continuing the duties expected of them as woman of the house). wild bc it clearly displays women are perfectly capable of administering a realm but when has a little thing like obvious contradictions ever stopped old timey dudes from being terrible. there are a few examples of particularly power-hungry or otherwise ambitious women simply refusing to step down as regent, or taking the opportunity to go buckwild for all the time they had. the merovingian queens, though before the games timeframe, are a great example of this - strong ladies, a lot of big personalities, really do seem like characters from your games of thronesies. go open up the wikipedia page for, like, brunhilda of austrasia and youll see what i mean. theres also the infamous example of isabella of france, mother of king edward II of england, who is probably regarded unfairly (historiography has a lot of, ah, established narratives regarding women that you cant really trust), but shes a hell of a character anyway

this is kind of an aside but in ireland, like many other places, women were fully just not allowed to hold any land or property, so the only way a women could hold authority and climb the rungs of society was by marrying up, so to speak. thats how you get situations like brian boru dying in battle against his stepson sigtrygg silkbeard in the battle of clontarf - his wife, gormlaith, was a perfect example of the kind of woman with ambition you get in ireland. the understanding and acceptance of women gaining power or authority through marriage led to a sort of tradition of, like, if your brother died and you inherited his lands, youd go ahead and marry his widow so she could inherit those lands by proxy, and this actually forms the basis for a lot of anti-irish sentiment both in antiquity and later during the anglo-norman invasions (in-laws were seen in earlier catholic doctrine as being as related as blood relatives, so its easy to paint the irish as barbarians if theyre openly doing an incest). in this sense, the suggestions about marriage DO work in some contexts, and the game would be better for modeling some sort of agency into their unlanded women, but again, i dont think the core systems are robust enough at this time to actually manage any of that with good nuance

anyway, long post, but what im basically saying is yeah it sure would be nice if the game could properly model female autonomy in the middle ages. also homie above me sucks (edit: nvm hes dead now rip in piss lil guy)

 

[DebbieElla]

Thread cleaned up.

Let's make this very clear: sexism (etc) will get you permanently banned from the forum. We do not tolerate that here.

 

[child_of_air]

Should sons be able too?

2 and 3 they'll probably plan to fill out only with dlcs eventually, like in CK2 with Horse Lords (i think) they added event with a daughter killing her husband (once that was her brother lol) and running away with some mercenary captain

Yes, I think so. It's just that female children vs. male children when the males are heirs is just so different. Sons have more roles available to them since they typically become the rulers, and daughters do not. I guess that's why I pointed it out, but yes. Marriage refusal for all, or rebellion due to bad matches for all!

 

[child_of_air]

hm. its already sort of been covered, but one of the issues is that it really did suck to be a woman in the middle ages. this did under no circumstances stop certain women from speaking out or trying to fight back, let me be clear - women were never really as a whole demurely cutting about accepting everything like thats just the way it is, but the systems of the game at present arent deep or complex enough to properly model the way women in history made efforts to rebel against the hand they were dealt

one of the most obvious ways to give women more life would be a regency mechanic with, uh, a little more depth than what ck2 has on offer. concerns about female rulership meant that in a lot of places, women were straight up just not allowed to hold land. the game is actually kinder about this than the reality of the situation, where women would typically only be able to manage their inheritence by proxy via their husbands, but i dont think that should be changed at all, that would suck for female players. there are, of course, well known counter-examples like matilda of tuscany, but you do need to understand these are atypical and usually they had to fight tooth and nail for it, its genuinely hard to overstate what a feat it was that these women actually managed to be begrudgingly accepted as direct rulers of their own property. concerns about female authority were so severe that even convents were viewed with a sort of nervous skepticism, and the only way women were allowed to actually take the cloth was by having them be technically subservient to the abbot of a nearby monastery - which is wild considering how many princesses got nun'd whenever there was any difficulty at all with arranging a marriage for them

the exception to all this was when husbands died before their children came of age, women would be expected to administer whatever their sons stood to inherit until they were old enough to do it themselves (usually while also continuing the duties expected of them as woman of the house). wild bc it clearly displays women are perfectly capable of administering a realm but when has a little thing like obvious contradictions ever stopped old timey dudes from being terrible. there are a few examples of particularly power-hungry or otherwise ambitious women simply refusing to step down as regent, or taking the opportunity to go buckwild for all the time they had. the merovingian queens, though before the games timeframe, are a great example of this - strong ladies, a lot of big personalities, really do seem like characters from your games of thronesies. go open up the wikipedia page for, like, brunhilda of austrasia and youll see what i mean. theres also the infamous example of isabella of france, mother of king edward II of england, who is probably regarded unfairly (historiography has a lot of, ah, established narratives regarding women that you cant really trust), but shes a hell of a character anyway

this is kind of an aside but in ireland, like many other places, women were fully just not allowed to hold any land or property, so the only way a women could hold authority and climb the rungs of society was by marrying up, so to speak. thats how you get situations like brian boru dying in battle against his stepson sigtrygg silkbeard in the battle of clontarf - his wife, gormlaith, was a perfect example of the kind of woman with ambition you get in ireland. the understanding and acceptance of women gaining power or authority through marriage led to a sort of tradition of, like, if your brother died and you inherited his lands, youd go ahead and marry his widow so she could inherit those lands by proxy, and this actually forms the basis for a lot of anti-irish sentiment both in antiquity and later during the anglo-norman invasions (in-laws were seen in earlier catholic doctrine as being as related as blood relatives, so its easy to paint the irish as barbarians if theyre openly doing an incest). in this sense, the suggestions about marriage DO work in some contexts, and the game would be better for modeling some sort of agency into their unlanded women, but again, i dont think the core systems are robust enough at this time to actually manage any of that with good nuance

anyway, long post, but what im basically saying is yeah it sure would be nice if the game could properly model female autonomy in the middle ages. also homie above me sucks (edit: nvm hes dead now rip in piss lil guy)

It really depends on where you are talking about. There are plenty of instances in Europe where women were rulers in their own right. I've studied a lot of them in depth, and although it didn't happen often, it did happen all throughout history again and again. Especially in England, Spain, Scotland, and sometimes in France and Germany and even Russia. Some great rulers were women and we still continue to talk about them and make movies about them today. The Tudor era was actually a time when there were quite a few women in positions of extreme power. I'm not just talking about Kingdoms, but Duchies and Counties as well. Eleanor of Aquitaine was famous for being an excellent ruler of her own Duchy, and her sons couldn't compare with the kind of power she wielded there. She was a very formidable woman.

In any case, I can think of two cases off the top of my head where women refused marriages. Mostly it was due to religion (Christian women didn't want to or refused to be married to Muslim men) and in some cases they wanted to be nuns instead of get married. It was rare but I still think children should be given that option. Or at least, the player and the AI should suffer the consequences of marrying their children poorly. The AI is just horrible at it and that really needs to be reformed.

How many times have we seen 18 year old boys marry 50 year old women?! And vice versa? It's pretty absurd and most of those matches would never be made in real life. Most Kings aren't going to marry their daughters to an old man that has one foot in the grave because that alliance won't last and her children won't be heirs if he already has them. It did happen, but not as frequently as it does in the game.

 

[child_of_air]

Consent was certainly framed as a necessity for marriage, but this is where things get complicated. We today would frame "consent" as, well, consensual - individuals should be free from external pressures to conform and "play their part." For medieval marriages, this was not the case, and there were many ways to leverage social and familial pressures to drive someone to say "yes," and a strong culture of dynastic politics children were steeped in from birth in which marriages were political arrangements more than anything. This of course does not mean that rulers were blind to the fact that both prospective partners were going to have their own opinions, and that a reasonably acceptable match was important both to keep strife out of the ruling family and to ensure a, uh, "productive" union.

Mechanically, and without a massive change to the game's systems, this could be addressed in part by having marriage selection not just take into account traits. A preview of their respective opinions in the marriage selection screen, with very clear indicators on how this will effect the marriage and its prospects (will this improve the chance of having kids? Harm it? Are they going to try to stab each other as soon as possible?) could help the marriage process feel more like a process in which the prospective partners at least have a voice.


This is an excellent idea, making family networks feel like an important part of the game and showing how family members use their positions as power brokers and could either support or undermine their spouse.


In line with what I put forward above, making your direct family's relationships much more present and influential is an excellent idea, and again would make choosing partners that are actually amenable to each other so much more important.

Agreed. I have read a few cases where the woman refused to marry someone that wasn't of her religion- I am pretty sure it was someone that didn't want to marry Saladin actually. I've also ready of cases where the woman wanted to be a nun instead of get married and of course the church backed her up in that. But yeah, you're right on both counts. You could pressure and force if you wanted, but I think that should come with consequences in the game as it sometimes did in real life.

The AI needs to make more realistic decisions when it comes to marriage. As I was explaining to another user- the amount of young men paired with women that are no longer fertile is pretty absurd. And the amount of young girls paired with men that already have heirs and have one foot in the grave is also absurd! Kings wouldn't typically pair their daughters up with such old men (50 and up) because they wanted the alliances to last. And they also wanted their own grandchildren to be the heirs. I mean, it did happen, but not to the extent I see it in the game. Most Kings aren't going to waste their chances at making a good alliance if they only have one or two daughters either. Last night I saw a 14 year old engaged to a man in his 60s, and he died before they even got married! That kind of thing is silly and shouldn't be happening as often as it does.

 

[Chatoustikmou]

Usually, when you try to marry a daughter to a character of a different religion, doesn't the recipient refuse the marriage themselves anyway on religious grounds?

Other than that, although I'm making Mostly Mechanical Mods, and something like this would likely require a lot more flavor and events to be done justice than what I'm used to, I'd be willing to collaborate on a mod that implements your vision on the subject. Hit me up if you're up for it!

 

[plansburn]

Or at least, the player and the AI should suffer the consequences of marrying their children poorly. The AI is just horrible at it and that really needs to be reformed.

Yeah, sometimes it bugs the hell out of me when there's nothing to gain from a marriage but the AI does it anyways. Far too many bad matches. Of course on the other hand I'll have a child with great traits, beauty and skill but they'll turn their nose up at it even when its entirely to their advantage. I have to resort to subterfuge sometimes to get subpar marriages.

 

[Trunting]

I have not specifically read about the topic of marriage in the medieval era, but also I have never heard, that a child (be it son or daughter) was asked, if they wanted to marry someone.

But I also believe, that its obvious that many people were unhappy with their chosen marriage partner and I'm glad, that this topic has been brought up.

I therefore suggest the following:

There should be an independent stat of attractiveness, ranging from 0-100, which is only computed when a marriage is about to happen. This stat is based on factors like age, traits and power (but this last one would depend on the traits of the other person).

Now if you plan to marry say your young daughter to a 70 year old ruler, the daughter would most likely don't like this.

There could be several outcomes based on traits:

- father/mother I dont like to marry this guy (you as the ruler could decide what to do)
- Im ambitious so I will marry for money
- The person tries to flee with their secret lover
- etc.

I would make all of this trait based, but pay attention that it never crosses a certain threshold ("You will marry Tyrell!" should be the maximum of force you are allowed to use).

As per marriage events, I could imagine, that a value is computed, which shows the happiness of characters with their marriage and which would influence decisions such as to take lovers etc.

Those would be my ideas regarding the ops thread.

 

[Bshepp]

I would like to see daughters be able to have more of a role. Marriage alliances are nice but i can't be the only one who gets lots of daughters and thinks I'd rather use them in my own realm than have 7 Marriage alliances.

 

[child_of_air]

I would like to see daughters be able to have more of a role. Marriage alliances are nice but i can't be the only one who gets lots of daughters and thinks I'd rather use them in my own realm than have 7 Marriage alliances.

You most certainly aren't, that's why I posted this. A lot of people feel this way, and the lack of depth with children in general make for a dull family life.

 

[Trunting]

Mayheps all of this could be done in a DLC called Family, Friends and Foes, which would serve as a flavour pack and also include deepened rivalries and friendships.