[Submod] Norse Heritage Overhaul - and other tweaks for HIP (Updated: 4 June 2021 for Frosty3)

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Erilaz

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Ok, But like a simple % for levies boost those goverments
Maybe you could. If you really want to, feel free to give it a go. :)
 

Erilaz

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NoCreativity

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Have the Scots characters not been added to the history files yet? Whenever I go to the 11th Century and onwards bookmarks, the south of Scotland is noculture/noreligion.
 

Erilaz

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Have the Scots characters not been added to the history files yet? Whenever I go to the 11th Century and onwards bookmarks, the south of Scotland is noculture/noreligion.
The Scots culture is fully fleshed out. This issue is caused by a conflicting mod. Do you have any mod (other than HIP and NHO) that edits 00_cultures.txt?

You can also post your list of mods, so I can check.
 
Last edited:

G.Strategos

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@Erilaz
I've checked the new helmets and they're compatible with HIP'S CPR but not with BLG's compatible version, since the frames are all over the place.
Will you give it a shot when you're not busy?

Cheers.
 

Erilaz

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NoCreativity

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The Scots culture is fully fleshed out. This issue is caused by a conflicting mod. Do you have any mod (other than HIP and NHO) that edits 00_cultures.txt?

You can also post your list of mods, so I can check.
Would Better Balkans and Carpathians cause this? It's the only other culture mod I use.
 

G.Strategos

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Erilaz

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Would Better Balkans and Carpathians cause this? It's the only other culture mod I use.
Yes, our two submods are unfortunately incompatible.

Oh, I must have missed it. Sorry about that.
No worries mate. Besides, I don't think the helmets fit very well into the style of BLG from what I've seen. EDIT: BLG-compatible version now available.
 
Last edited:

nmpolo

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I'm not sure, but if one would prefer to use the liege levies exclusively for later administrations, that's possible. The issue would be balance since a liege with CTA would be able to raise a lot more troops than someone with only liege levies.

Personally I don't see a reason to change it though, it's only relevant for very late game, if at all, and it would cause too many issues.
I was wondering whether it would be better to turn off CTA if starting with later bookmarks. I like playing the HYW bookmark in England and it seems, from what I've read, that it would be more historically accurate to play without the CTA submod activated in this situation. I was just curious whether you agreed or if I was mistaken. I think CTA is awesome but more appropriate for earlier bookmarks.
 

Erilaz

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I was wondering whether it would be better to turn off CTA if starting with later bookmarks. I like playing the HYW bookmark in England and it seems, from what I've read, that it would be more historically accurate to play without the CTA submod activated in this situation. I was just curious whether you agreed or if I was mistaken. I think CTA is awesome but more appropriate for earlier bookmarks.
I'm not sure which approach is most appropriate for later bookmarks, but yes, I think it's best to go either or - since mixing the two systems is problematic at best.
 

Erilaz

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I'm seriously contemplating making a new set of Russian melting pots with new naming lists and overhaul of the history files. If anyone has an opinion or suggestions for this, I'd be very grateful.

Things like which areas that should be affected by the first melting pot and which shouldn't, for example, is still on the table.

From my point of view (which admittedly in this case is mostly based on linguistics, and a limited historical knowledge of the areas) it would make more sense to have something like a three-step melting pot:

1. Pre-Rus Eastern Slavs (excluding Christian name elements) - one big or alternatively split up in some way that I can't be the judge of currently...
2. Early Rus (including a minority of Norse name elements) - possibly only spreading to areas directly under Norse/Early Rus rule.
3. Christian Russians (Excluding Scandinavian and older name elements, but including Christian ones) - triggered when Christianity spreads, and melts from both of the above.

Pre-Rus (Slověnĭskŭ?) --> Early Rus (Rusĭ/Rusinŭ) --> Russian (Rusĭskŭ/Rusĭskyi).

(The ĭ/ъ and ŭ/ь can also be dropped, at least in the later names).

Here's a really good source of information (with links to primary sources etc.):
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/early-rusĭ-names.302029/

Also, it was discussed in this thread.

Rusĭ (pl.) and Rusinŭ (sg.) are nouns, so probably Early Rus as an adjective should be Rusĭskŭ while later Russians Ruskyi/Rusĭskyi (Рускъı/Рускыи/Русьскыи)
 

Erilaz

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Delnar_Ersike

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The pre-Norse Rus' and Norse underling Rus' setup takes place long before most primary sources about the Rus', so it's kind of hard to judge how accurate they would be from my perspective (remember, plenty of Rus' who weren't under Greek rite rulers still converted to Greek rite Christianity, e.g. the Rusyns).

However, such a melting pot would still fail to recreate the variety within Rus' even after they Christianized. The best example of this pertains to a lot of archeological evidence showing that groups of Rus' in North and Northwest were both extremely literate (when the rest of East Slavdom very likely wasn't) and had a dialect that has certain, odd features that perplexed linguists for quite a while. This group's epicenter was in Novgorod, but the birch bark letters written in its dialect have been found in dig sites much further away as well. While a lot of linguists in the past put "Old Novgorod" as a dead-end offshoot from Old East Slavic because they didn't know where else to put it, from what I have read about it, it very likely emerged in parallel with other, regional variants of Old East Slavic, and its unique features are explained by cross-pollination with nearby Finno-Ugric languages that have since become extinct (Volga-Finns). BTW, those birch bark letters really are quite interesting to read and to look at. There are even some letters that seem to have been written by children, and one of them seem to have been made by a child practicing their spelling (and it even has a little stick figure in the corner, probably made by that same child).

To know where to make splits for the rest of East Slavdom, it may also be advantageous to look at what mistakes certain authors made when writing contemporary texts. Aside from those birch bark letters, the only surviving texts in East Slavic that we have are either written in Old Church Slavonic or heavily influenced by Old Church Slavonic. In a lot of cases, authors tried to adhere to Old Church Slavonic as much as possible because it was seen as such a prestigious language, but they'd also often make systematic mistakes betraying the specific regional variant of East Slavic that they spoke. Honestly though, I'm only mentioning this because there really isn't much else off of which to go.
 

Erilaz

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The pre-Norse Rus' and Norse underling Rus' setup takes place long before most primary sources about the Rus', so it's kind of hard to judge how accurate they would be from my perspective (remember, plenty of Rus' who weren't under Greek rite rulers still converted to Greek rite Christianity, e.g. the Rusyns).

However, such a melting pot would still fail to recreate the variety within Rus' even after they Christianized. The best example of this pertains to a lot of archeological evidence showing that groups of Rus' in North and Northwest were both extremely literate (when the rest of East Slavdom very likely wasn't) and had a dialect that has certain, odd features that perplexed linguists for quite a while. This group's epicenter was in Novgorod, but the birch bark letters written in its dialect have been found in dig sites much further away as well. While a lot of linguists in the past put "Old Novgorod" as a dead-end offshoot from Old East Slavic because they didn't know where else to put it, from what I have read about it, it very likely emerged in parallel with other, regional variants of Old East Slavic, and its unique features are explained by cross-pollination with nearby Finno-Ugric languages that have since become extinct (Volga-Finns). BTW, those birch bark letters really are quite interesting to read and to look at. There are even some letters that seem to have been written by children, and one of them seem to have been made by a child practicing their spelling (and it even has a little stick figure in the corner, probably made by that same child).

To know where to make splits for the rest of East Slavdom, it may also be advantageous to look at what mistakes certain authors made when writing contemporary texts. Aside from those birch bark letters, the only surviving texts in East Slavic that we have are either written in Old Church Slavonic or heavily influenced by Old Church Slavonic. In a lot of cases, authors tried to adhere to Old Church Slavonic as much as possible because it was seen as such a prestigious language, but they'd also often make systematic mistakes betraying the specific regional variant of East Slavic that they spoke. Honestly though, I'm only mentioning this because there really isn't much else off of which to go.

Thank you! It is very interesting stuff, but so hard for a Westerner to access.

I'm already quite far with a couple of basic melting pots, then I'll see how it goes. The first one is top-down (Norse rulers assimilating) while the second is bottom up (East Slavic provinces that are christianized). I'll post some pictures here when I've gotten a little bit further.


EDIT: For now, here are the WIP naming lists:

Code:
    protorussian = {
        graphical_cultures = { easternslavicgfx easterngfx }
        color = { 0.3 0.4 0.2 }
        male_names = {
            Bryachislav_Bretislaus
            Dobrynya_Dobrynia
            Gleb Izyaslav_Iziaslav
            Leb_Leo
            Mistislav_Mstislav Putyata_Putiata Radoslav Rodislav
            Rostislav Stanislav_Stanislav Sudislav
            Svyatopulk_Svatopluk Svyatoslav_Sviatoslav Vyacheslav_Viacheslav
            Volodimer_Vladimir Volodislav_Vladislav Voislav Volodar Vseslav Vsevolod Vyshata Vysheslav Yaropulk_Yaropolk
            Yaroslav_Jaroslav
        }
        female_names = {
            Baleslava_Boleslava Dubrava_Dobrava
            Dobrogneva_Dobronega Dobroslava
            Gorislava Gradislava
            Gremislava Liubava Lyudimila_Liudmila Lyudomila_Liudmila
            Pereduslava_Pereyaslava Preduslava_Pereyaslava Premislava_Premyslava Pribyslava_Pribislava
            Rostislava Sbyslava Svyatoslava_Sviatoslava
            Vysheslava_Vseslava Vyacheslava_Viacheslava Yaroslava Zvenislava
        }
        from_dynasty_suffix = "isku"
        male_patronym = "ichi"
        female_patronym = "icha"
        prefix = no
        # Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grf_name_chance = 50
        mat_grf_name_chance = 40
        father_name_chance = 0
        # Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mother_name_chance = 0
        modifier = russian_culture_modifier
        count_titles_hidden = yes
    }
   
    rusi = {
        graphical_cultures = { norsegfx easternslavicgfx }
        color = { 0.1 0.4 0.4 }
        male_names = {
            Akun_Hakon Arufast_Arne Askolid_Eskil Asmud_Asmund Bern_Beorn Bryachislav_Bretislaus
            Diru_Dyre Furusten_Torsten Dobrynya_Dobrynia
            Igor_Ingvar Ivor_Ivar Grim_Grim Gudu_Gudmund Gudu_Godfrey Gleb Izyaslav_Iziaslav
            Libiar_Leif Leb_Leo
            Olig_Helge Roguvolod_Ragnvald Mistislav_Mstislav Putyata_Putiata Radoslav Rodislav
            Rurik_Rurik Rulav_Rolf Rostislav Stanislav_Stanislav Sudislav
            Shcheku_Sigurd Shikhubern_Sigbjorn Sineus_Sten Sludy_Skule Sven_Sven Turd_Tord Turukotil_Torkel Turubern_Torbjörn Oleb_Olaf Svyatopulk_Svatopluk Svyatoslav_Sviatoslav Vyacheslav_Viacheslav
            Volodimer_Vladimir Volodislav_Vladislav Voislav Volodar Vseslav Vsevolod Vyshata Vysheslav Yaropulk_Yaropolk
            Yaroslav_Jaroslav
        }
        female_names = {
            Baleslava_Boleslava Dubrava_Dobrava
            Dobrogneva_Dobronega Dobroslava
            Gorislava Gradislava
            Malufred_Malmfrid Malusha Gremislava Liubava Lyudimila_Liudmila Lyudomila_Liudmila
            Oliga_Helga Olikha_Helga Rognedi_Ragnhild Pereduslava_Pereyaslava Preduslava_Pereyaslava Premislava_Premyslava Pribyslava_Pribislava
            Rostislava Sbyslava Svyatoslava_Sviatoslava
            Vysheslava_Vseslava Vyacheslava_Viacheslava Yaroslava Zvenislava
        }
        parent = norse
        from_dynasty_suffix = "isku"
        male_patronym = "ovichi"
        female_patronym = "ovicha"
        prefix = no
        # Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grf_name_chance = 50
        mat_grf_name_chance = 40
        father_name_chance = 0
        # Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mother_name_chance = 0
        modifier = russian_culture_modifier
        count_titles_hidden = yes
        allow_looting = yes
        seafarer = yes
    }
   
    russian = {
        graphical_cultures = { easternslavicgfx easterngfx }
        color = { 0.2 0.4 0.1 }
        male_names = {
            Afanasiy_Athanasius Alexandr_Alexander Alexei_Alexis Andrei_Andrew Boris_Boris Briachislav_Bretislaus
            Daniil_Daniel Davyd_David Demid Dmitriy_Demetrius Dobrynia_Dobrynia Fedot_Theodat Feodor_Theodore
            Gavriil_Gabriel Gleb Grigoriy_Gregory Iakov_Jacob Igor_Ingvar Iliya Ivan_John Iziaslav_Iziaslav
            Kirill_Cyril Konstantin_Constantine Koz'ma_Cosma Lev_Leo Matfei_Matthew Mikhail_Michael Mitrofan
            Oleg_Helge Mstislav_Mstislav Nikita Pavel_Paul Putiata_Putiata Radoslav Rodislav Roman_Roman
            Rostislav Ruslan Simeon_Simon Stanislav_Stanislav Stepan_Stephen Sudislav Svetozar
            Sviatopolk_Svatopluk Sviatoslav_Sviatoslav Terentiy_Terence Trifon Vasiliy_Basil Vasilko Viacheslav
            Vladimir_Vladimir Vladislav_Vladislav Voislav Volodar Vseslav Vsevolod Vyshata Vysheslav Yaropolk_Yaropolk
            Yaroslav_Jaroslav Yefimiy Yelisey Yemelyan_Emil Yeremey Yevstafiy Yuriy_George
        }
        female_names = {
            Agafya_Agatha Agrafena Alexandra_Alexandra Anastasia_Anastasia Anna_Anna Boleslava_Boleslava Darya Dobrava_Dobrava
            Dobronega_Dobronega Dobroslava Yefimia_Euphemia Yefrosinia_Euphrosyne Yekaterina_Catherine Yelizaveta_Elisabeth
            Yevdokia_Eudocia Yevpraxia Feodora_Theodora Feodosia_Theodosia Fevronia Gorislava Gradislava
            Gremislava Irina_Irene Xenia Liubava Liudmila_Liudmila Malusha Maria_Maria Marina_Marina
            Olena_Helen Olga_Helga Pereyaslava_Pereyaslava Praskovya Praxida Prebrana Predslava_Pereyaslava Premyslava_Premyslava Pribislava_Pribislava
            Rostislava Sbyslava Sofia_Sophia Sviatoslava_Sviatoslava Tatyana Ulita Ulyana Varvara Vasilisa Veleslava
            Verkhoslava Vseslava_Vseslava Viacheslava_Viacheslava Yaroslava Zabava Zvenislava
        }
        parent = rusi
        from_dynasty_suffix = "skyi"
        male_patronym = "ovich"
        female_patronym = "ovna"
        prefix = no
        # Chance of male children being named after their paternal or maternal grandfather, or their father. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grf_name_chance = 50
        mat_grf_name_chance = 40
        father_name_chance = 0
        # Chance of female children being named after their paternal or maternal grandmother, or their mother. Sum must not exceed 100.
        pat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mat_grm_name_chance = 30
        mother_name_chance = 0
        modifier = russian_culture_modifier
        count_titles_hidden = yes
    }
 

ShinsukeNakamura

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@Erilaz is your goal to make Protorussian to be Russian without Norse influence, or are you aiming for more archaic version, something between Proto-Slavic and Old Russian?
 

Erilaz

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@Erilaz is your goal to make Protorussian to be Russian without Norse influence, or are you aiming for more archaic version, something between Proto-Slavic and Old Russian?

"Proto-Russian" (for lack of a better term) is supposed to represent all the various East Slavic tribes before the Norse influence, and before the Christian influence. In-game it's called "Slovenisku" (since the diacritics don't work in-game). The "Rusi" (Rusisku) culture represents the Norse-derived/influenced nobility (it should not spread much to provinces). And then lastly the regular Russian (Ruskyi) represents the Christianized Russians.

The language of the first is indeed some compromise between early Old East Slavic and later development (e.g. I decided to remove the ŭ/ь at the end of personal names, also to accommodate better for patronyms and derived dynasty names).
 

Erilaz

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WIP province setup.

Ruskyi spread mostly follows Christian spread (except some border areas).

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Delnar_Ersike

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Keep in mind that the East Slavs living in the Kingdom of Hungary (who would later be labelled with the name "Rusyns") became Orthodox the same way their East Slavic neighbors living on the other side of the Carpathian mountains did. If your melting pot is meant to represent Christianized Rus', then those Rus' should also become "russian" culture.

Note that there is a reason I keep referring to this group as Rus' or East Slavs (or Old East Slavic when I talk about language), not Russian or Old Russian or Proto-Russian, and I advise you to try to do the same. People who have "russian" culture in CK2 should not be thought of as being tied to Russian language or culture in any direct sense (both of which arguably only really started emerging as their own, distinct entity around the 15th century). They were Rus', they were all Rus', even though Rus'-dom itself definitely was not the monolith that having just one "final" East Slavic culture would imply. The only reason it is even called "russian" in SWMH's game files is to maintain maximum compatibility with vanilla CK2.

If you're going off of the Old Novgorod birch bark letters, one thing you could think about is how this difference in not only language, but also lifestyle (i.e. widespread literacy, a focus on urban culture) and politics (only Novgorod and Pskov adopted republican structures based on their veches, even if veches were present in a lot of other places across Slavdom) came about. One idea could be that this was caused by greater Norse influence in those areas (Norse themselves also having similar, widespread literacy), but then that wouldn't explain why this didn't develop in Kiev. Whatever cultures you choose to represent with your melting pot system, it might not be a bad idea to have something set up to be able to reproduce whatever intra-Rus' split with which you'll want to end up in the 1200's and beyond.