[Submod] Norse Heritage Overhaul - and other tweaks for HIP (Updated: 16 September 2020 for Frosty3)

[Submod] Norse Heritage Overhaul - and other tweaks for HIP (Updated: 16 September 2020 for Frosty3)

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ogarrr

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Just checking that you knew about the Norse culture missing the following lines:

Code:
male_patronym = "sson"
        female_patronym = "sdottir"
        prefix = no # The patronym is added as a suffix
I personally add this to the Norman culture as well:

Code:
male_patronym = "Fitz"
        prefix = yes
 

theKing1988

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Well the loss of provinces in Scotland and Ireland doesn't have much to with following the direction the Vanilla DLC's dictates as it does with the fact that we've been a bit excuberant with the number of provinces added in the past, down through the various overhauls that have been done and as we near the end of our overhaul of the map, SWMH is starting to feel the strain of the total number of provinces added (Whoever is suggesting to expand vanilla to include East Asia is crazy, have them come talk to us).

We've found ourselves wanting to go back and re-check earlier overhauls we've done to make sure we've not added unnecessary dead-weight or we've not added something that isn't particularly historical (we're just human too, with everyday lives, so mistakes do happen. And our internal debate culture and way of doing overhauls have become a lot more standardized since i joined the team) And no region goes free from this double check that we've been doing. Africa to give you an example have born the biggest brunt of our cuts. 3 times as many provinces have been cut from Africa than from Europe.

And it turned out the more we digged into Ireland and the more we digged into Scotland the more subdivisions we found that was anachronisms based more on 17th-21st Century Irish subdivisions than it was on Medieval Irish subdivisions, with very incomplete or copy-pasted title histories (which is usually not a good sign of the period relevance of a split off from a neighbouring province.) Also the province number that Ireland used to have was disproportionate to that of the neighbouring Kingdoms. It gave Ireland a military and economic basis in the game that didn't match at all with medieval reality and resulted in not just frequent occurences of a United AI Ireland, but in a United AI Ireland making steady inroads into Wales and other parts of Britain.

I'm not telling you what direction you should take for the submod, i would never dream of doing that because that is of course completely up to you. If you want to continue with our old setup, then you have our full support for that. I'm just clearing up a little misunderstanding you seem to have about the current direction that me and my partners in crime is leading SWMH down towards.
 
Last edited:

Erilaz

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Just checking that you knew about the Norse culture missing the following lines:

Code:
male_patronym = "sson"
        female_patronym = "sdottir"
        prefix = no # The patronym is added as a suffix
I personally add this to the Norman culture as well:

Code:
male_patronym = "Fitz"
        prefix = yes
Yes, and it's a decision I've consciously made, though I have yet to decide on it finally. My reasoning is that the patronyms would virtually all be distorted (which I'm sure is that case for many other patronyms in other cultures of the game). What we see in game is jarring grammatical errors that we have no means to correct with the current system. The Norse names are all (or at least should be standardized to) using the nominative, for example: Ragnarr, Haraldr, Þοrkell, Hákon, Óláfr, Sigurðr etc. You can't simply put a standard suffix on them since they depend on various grammatical rules to form a genitive that is used for the patronym: Ragnars, Haralds, Þοrkels, Hákonar, Óláfs, Sigurðar, etc. With the current system we simply have the suffix put behind the nominative (because we assume that all names have a genitive ending in s): Ragnarrsson, Haraldrsson, Þοrkellsson, Hákonsson, Óláfrsson, Sigurðrsson - these should be correctly: Ragnarsson, Haraldsson, Þοrkelsson, Hákonarson, Óláfsson, Sigurðarson. So, in lack of any other solution I decided to leave them out for the Norse characters (but keep them in for the more modern Scandinavian names since they follow the template of an s-genitive with the loss of the nominative -l/-r indicator). As I said, there are other cultures that suffer similar problems with this simplified system, for example the (Gall)-Goídel who have a complicated genitive system where, for example, the nominative Ímar becomes genitive hÍmair, etc.

Well the loss of provinces in Scotland and Ireland doesn't have much to with following the direction the Vanilla DLC's dictates as it does with the fact that we've been a bit excuberant with the number of provinces added in the past, down through the various overhauls that have been done and as we near the end of our overhaul of the map, SWMH is starting to feel the strain of the total number of provinces added (Whoever is suggesting to expand vanilla to include East Asia is crazy, have them come talk to us).

We've found ourselves wanting to go back and re-check earlier overhauls we've done to make sure we've not added unnecessary dead-weight or we've not added something that isn't particularly historical (we're just human too, with everyday lives, so mistakes do happen. And our internal debate culture and way of doing overhauls have become a lot more standardized since i joined the team) And no region goes free from this double check that we've been doing. Africa to give you an example have born the biggest brunt of our cuts. 3 times as many provinces have been cut from Africa than from Europe.

And it turned out the more we digged into Ireland and the more we digged into Scotland the more subdivisions we found that was anachronisms based more on 17th-21st Century Irish subdivisions than it was on Medieval Irish subdivisions, with very incomplete or copy-pasted title histories (which is usually not a good sign of the period relevance of a split off from a neighbouring province.) Also the province number that Ireland used to have was disproportionate to that of the neighbouring Kingdoms. It gave Ireland a military and economic basis in the game that didn't match at all with medieval reality and resulted in not just frequent occurences of a United AI Ireland, but in a United AI Ireland making steady inroads into Wales and other parts of Britain.

I'm not telling you what direction you should take for the submod, i would never dream of doing that because that is of course completely up to you. If you want to continue with our old setup, then you have our full support for that. I'm just clearing up a little misunderstanding you seem to have about the current direction that me and my partners in crime is leading SWMH down towards.
I understand your reasoning completely, and my critique above has mostly been directed at Paradox' chosen direction (and loss of European focus); I hope you will never venture into their folly if they decide to expand even further east: it is simply not possible with the current engine. I still, however, maintain that the major eastern expansion was unnecessary, and that I personally prefer the main part of the limited amount of provinces to be invested in Europe; I find it unlikely that you would have cut away provinces (rather than just lowered the amount of possible holdings) if it weren't for the fact that these provinces were needed elsewhere; it might be true that Ireland has had a disproportionate amount of provinces, but having gotten used to that, and as it's one of my favourite areas, it is very hard to be reconciled with the bland post-HL Ireland (it bears a resemblance to going from the glorious SWMH map back to Vanilla, even if that is far from the case).
 

ogarrr

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Yes, and it's a decision I've consciously made.
Your reasoning seems sound, I suppose it's a chose between anachronistic names (Harald instead of Haraldr etc) or the issue you just described. You may want to consider adding the Norsegael name stuff from the new edition as well:

Code:
        male_names = {
            Ímar_Ivar Asgaill_Kettil Corcadail_Torkel Coitir_Ottar Ciomhair Shitrig_Sigtrygg Leòid Armhlaibh_Olaf Goraidh_Godfried Ìomhar_Ivar Ragnaill_Reginald Somhairle_Samuel Tormod_Tormod Torcuil_Torkel Gofraid_Godfried Magnús_Magnus Ingjald_Ingjald Thorstein_Torsten Causantín_Constantine Lagmann Amlaíb_Olaf
            Aralt_Harold Somerled Donnchadh_Duncan Dúnchad_Duncan Eóghan_Eugene Dubgall Máire Eysteinn Somairle_Samuel Escoib Grimur_Grim Blacaire Albdan Arailt_Harold Alexander_Alexander Archibald_Archibald Artúr_Arthur Malcolm Muiredach_Murdoch Bróen Dúngal Einar_Einar
            Róen Seoán_John Seán_John Túathal Ualtar_Walter Uillam_William Éamonn_Edmund Énri_Henry Demmán Crimthann Báetán Iacob_Jacob Eógan_Eugene Colmán Artgal Art Cináed Cathalán_Cataldo Matudán Lochlann Lorcán Arnmod_Arnmod Áedán Éicnechán Óengus_Angus Ólchobar
        }
Researching the Norse-Gaels has been pretty interesting. Considering changing their localisation to "Austmann" to accomodate what they called themselves (they called celts Vestmenn).

I've also added the following names into the Norse culture:
Hroðbjartr_Robert Hroðgar_Roger Rikulfr_Richard Vilhjalmr_William

Mainly because the Norman leader "William longsword" was more likely called Vilhjalmr Langaspjót.
 
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Erilaz

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Oh, I didn't know that the Norse-Gael names were revised. Looks pretty good. I've yet to start the character name overhaul I had in mind; it seems they weeded out the mix of Norse and Gaelic/Gaelicized names.

Using Austmaðr for the Norse-Gael might be an option, but then we'd have to use the non-Gaelicized character names as well, I think. I personally prefer to use the Gaelicized Norse names since they streamline the culture that would also use proper Gaelic names at times, and I also just think they're quite cool.
 

ogarrr

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They'v revised the names for Italians and Normans as well. No longer will you get Ragnarr as a family name in Norman families, that name for example turns into Rayner.
 

Erilaz

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I see. I'll take a look at it when I get that far.

Now I've just been revisiting the problem of the Scottish division, and, after some further reading, I must say I'm quite torn about how it should be done; I might have to reconsider my current approach...
 

Erilaz

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So, I made another play-test from 867 to 1000, and here's the resulting .gif


I've also decided to rename the Highland Scots "Albanach" rather than Gáidheal. In light of the play-test, I've made a few tweaks to the Scottish melting-pot.
 

The Guru

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Interesting...I love to play Norse, so the mod is pretty appealing... sadly, I don't play with VIET events ( I hate those piss and fart jokes) so I guess it's not compatible...
 

Urzhail64

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I'd like an update too. Especially for Geats like me - naturally. :p
 

Erilaz

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Interesting...I love to play Norse, so the mod is pretty appealing... sadly, I don't play with VIET events ( I hate those piss and fart jokes) so I guess it's not compatible...
Surely the amount of positive additions outweigh the useless ones. I can see how some of the events are childish and needless, but one can just ignore them. Then again, from what I've read, and from what I've found in the VIET files, the mod is quite outdated and full of compatibility-breaking dangers. I might disable VIET in the future, but I can't be bothered now to be honest. If you want to try out my submod nonetheless, you can (as is recommend anyway) use the "full version" that includes everything you need - and then you'll just have to live with/ignore the events you dislike for now.

So this is still only for ck2 2.3.6? Any chance for update?
As I've stated several times, I have no current plans to port the submod to a newer version of CK2/HIP.

Looking forward to an update! Keep up the good work, Erilaz.
I'd like an update too. Especially for Geats like me - naturally. :p
Thank you for your interest and support! The latest changes are so minor that they hardly warrant a patch. I'm currently considering what to start working on next; if you have any suggestions, please tell me (have a look at the "planned features" and tell me what you're most interested in seeing, for example).
 

Mundane

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Thank you for your interest and support! The latest changes are so minor that they hardly warrant a patch. I'm currently considering what to start working on next; if you have any suggestions, please tell me (have a look at the "planned features" and tell me what you're most interested in seeing, for example).
Work on the localization! Specifically the Anglo-Scandinavian cultures that may form, and one culture that is severely lacking (Cumbri).
 

Erilaz

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You mean the province name localisation or just localisation in general (titles, names, etc.)? The Cumbri might be difficult since I have no prior knowledge of the language/dialect, but I'll check into it and see if I can improve upon the current state of things; only thing I personally noted as jarring was the use of the "Gall-Gaidheal" title for Galloway in the 867 start (and the Cumbrian rulers often end up holding that as the primary title after Scotland takes Strathclyde).
 

Mundane

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Localization in general. However, concerning the Cumbri you should try and expand provincial names before anything else.

EDIT: Do work on the stuff you know more about first! More Anglo combination besides the Cumbri, since you don't know much about them.
 
Last edited:

nilotic

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Will be checking this out as for me the norse are the most interesting to play. Thanks for the effort of creating this mod.
 

Erilaz

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I've been working on the mod again, and have made significant progress. A lot of work has been done on personal names (including the history files), as well as tweaks in other areas.

A new release will be due soon.
 
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