Southeast asia additional considerations

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AirikrStrife

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It is fantastic that PDX finally are doing a SEA patch, the timing have been a bit impeccable to me, @Semi-Lobster and @fredrikslicer as we've been working on a suggestion on that exact topic, there are still details that I think we can present from our suggestion that would improve upon the work of @neondt .

Here is a draft of the map we finished
SEA.jpg



I will not go over the whole map as it was as there's no pint in that seeing nedont already made his map, instead I will be looking at some specific changes we hope he will consider.

First I want to discuss issues of balance:

Comparing ours map with nedont's one major difference is where we decided to focus provinces, we had much fewer provinces on cambodia and more in Dai Viet, which were a decision made from balance POV. Cambodia at the time is a collapsed state while Dai Viet, was in a phase of major growth. In 1500 the Dai Viet state would have approximately 8 million inhabitants, Cambodia just over 1 million(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_in_1500 )


Population does not necessary mean historical outcome or development, but looking at history, Dai Viet should have significantly higher development than Cambodia, or Lan Xang (it's insane that in current game Dai Viet have less development than those two states)


I'm also definitly in favor of the culture group suggestion @Shahanshah759
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...e-new-southeast-asian-culture-groups.1405880/ were presenting.


As part of representing Dai Viet's large growth as well as the kinh people's settlement of the south I had redesigned mahayana's religious mechanics to give give decreased development cost and cultural conversation cost. As Neondt stated that they won't rework buddhism, I'll not bother posting my overhaul suggestion but I still feel these modifiers should be available to dai viet.


Northern Indochina:

No one really knows what Lan Na is, it even lost it's own culture group in this update (sad). But it was a major power at the specific time of the euiv start date and would remain so for a century, unlike Lan Xang which had had it's golden age and in 1444 were in a state of collapse Lan Na should start as one of the major players in the region

To accomodate this we made the Lan Na area into 5 provinces (just like Neondt, but slightely different provinces) and then we looked into the actual sphere of influence of Lan Na at the time, which extended quite a bit larger than the modern thai borders (in general there is an issue that indochinese borders are trying to look to much like modern day borders, something the game has been moving away from in other cases, plz do in indochina aswell)

The main expansion phase of Lan Na was in the 1440's and 1450's so we might be a little bit preemptive on the exact reach of the Lan Na state:

We gave the mawkmai province to Lan Na, the history of the area is a bit obscure (like most of the shan) but it seems to have been within Lan Na influence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawkmai_State ) Mawkmai was founded in the 1700's and it seems a bit unclear who ruled the area before then, probably petty kingdoms but the reach of the Lan Na mandala extended well into southern shan, as this maps show:


SEA.gif

All maps showing lan na that you'll find searching for the state on google will show it extending further nroth than modern day thai borders

Also the province of Luang Namtha (name and province shape is anachronistic) was vassalized by Lan Na at the time ( https://web.archive.org/web/20120109064147/http://www.luangnamtha-tourism.org/lnt_info/history.htm )


Further as can be seen on the map I linked above, Lan Na includes Kengtung and stretches into modern day china into the area of the Keng Hung state (later called sibsongpanna, making the in game name anachronistic) which both were within the Lan Na mandala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kengtung_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Hung )


So in order to both buff the decidedly very strong Lan Na state to and to be more historically accurate, I suggest a new tag, Kentung, controlling the provinces of Kentung, Keng Hung (sibsongbanna) and Luang Namtha, starting as a vassal of Lan Na. (all territory marked by black circle)

SEA2.jpg



As Lan Na takes 2 provinces from shan states, we also decided to increase the number of provinces in the shan area in order to make sure each state has at least two provinces.

(In our original proposal we added more Karen provinces, since Neondt instead opted to make a lot of the Karen territory wasteland, something I'm sceptical, I will adapt my suggestion a little bit to that.



I will move the province of Yawghwe to the Mong Pai tag, and instead make a new province of Mong Mit for Hsipaw based on the historical shan state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongmit_State (I'm doing new markers on our map to make it easier to locate, Mong Mit is the big black '1')


Hsenwi also looses out on a province which had us make a Manglon province (combining the territory of Manglong and the wa states) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mang_Lon ('2')



Mong Mao also loses a provinces so we've added Mong Lem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mong_Lem ('3')



In summary our changes to the shan states are:


3 new provinces (Mong Mit, Mong Lem, Mang Lon)


1 new tag (Kengtung)


Some shuffling around of province ownership and Kengtung starts as a vassal of Lan Na. Having Kengtung as a vassal of Lan Na, is also fitting for the vassal strategy that we were aiming to improve through our reworked theravada buddhist mechanic and by having all mandala kingdom start with at least one vassal/tributary (well not cambodia but that's because they're collapsing)

As I said, I think that all mandala statesshould start with subject(s). Ava got it's tributaries, Ayuttahya got two, now lan na got one, cambodia doesn't cound as is collapsing, champa have the tay nguyen tribes (potentially) and dai viet is not a mandala. That leaves Lan Xang

Now Lan Xang is on the brink of collapse and spent most of the 1440's and 1450's in problematic civil wars, had an interegnum for a few years so having them as a strong and unified state is not an optimal get go to begin with.

Now the frontier area between lan xang and dai viet in the north were inhabited by tribes that were not part of Lan Xang, but variously tributaries/subjects of lan xang or dai viet or just independent. Muang Phuan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muang_Phuan and Sip Song Chau Tai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sip_Song_Chau_Tai constituted tribal chiefdoms in the area. To further extend on the mandala model of SEA I suggest that the existing tag of Muan Phuan starts as a vassal of lan xang owning the provinces of Xiangkhouang and sip song chau tai.

Edit: lol, I wrote lan na when I meant lan xang, corrected



I hope that Neondt will consider these additions to the Chinese frontier as they would help make the region more historical, better balanced and just more interesting with a more significant Lan Na.



Some other changes to Indochina:





Ligor is still represented as a malay sultanate then it really was a southern thai state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhon_Si_Thammarat_Kingdom )


Burma should be used as a dynamic country name for burmese countries managing to do the empire mission (taungoo already got one, hopefully neondt makes a mission tree for ava and prome as well).


The Bamar people in central burma, while having a succesion of different states usually called by the dynasty or capital had a strong sense of continuity from pagan to ava to toungoo to later dynasties, having a burmese tag achieve empire status should define that tag as the de facto burmese state, not just another dynasty.

Map error: champassak town is not in the upcoming champassak province, it is rather in the Attapeu province.


No Karen provinces are added, but I hope they consider adding a Karen tag (as the culture is currently tagless), the 18th century principality of Kantharawady lends itself to the job https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantarawadi





Then moving the focus to Northeast india, an area that is in desperate need to be looked at in order to solve some gross historical inaccuracies.
SEA.jpg


.First of the Kingdom of Tripura, a very interesting place which played a role in the region throughout the whole timeline, very underrated and in game represented as a 3 dev OPM....in the wrong province. The province designated tripura in game currently is the Lushai hills (modern day Mizoram state), the province called chakla is the actual tripura state and the province called sonargoan is actually chakla....


Article on the kingdom of tripura with maps http://bangalistan.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-history-of-tripura-its-present.html


So in summary:
Rename Sonargoan to Chakla and have a tripura core (ownership unchanged)
Rename Chakla to Tripura and have the province owned by tripura and be tripura's capital
Rename Tripura to Lushai (hills) ownership unchanged


We also wanted to split chittagong in two, having a province for the chittagong hills belonging to tripura, and were looking at adding another province to arakan, but the priority here is just to get the rid of the complete error in the current set up.




On a bit northward we have another case of anachronism, basically Assam starts in a set up more accurate for the 1520's-1530's. We added a bunch of provinces to better portray the area aswell as the actual historic set up. But the most important changes are that the Ahom kingdom were in the 15th century very small and would rather be an OPM with the Kamata kingdom (from the 16th century ruled by the koch dynasty) controlled the territory west of assam and Chutiya dominating in the east and north. We laso opened up more of arunachal pradesh, the tibetan Monpa province and a province for the Nishi people (could be part of Chutiya or start as tribal OPM). The case for the Nishi hillpeople are they are part of the region, frequently raiding the chutiya and later ahom while also paying tribute, represting the region as complete wasteland, is inaccurate.

In my map I mark Chutiya with black circle, Kamata with blue and Ahom with green

So in short:
Assam should be reduced to an OPM only controlling its capital, Chutiya (renamed sadiya) controls eastern and northern assam as well as a new province in Arunachal. Kamata (renamed koch) controls western assam


In the larger region of Assam we have also removed the meghalaya wasteland and instead have a two province kingdom of Jaintia, controlling the provinces of Khasi and Jaintia


Also I suggest renaming the kachar kingdom to the historically correct Dimasa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimasa_Kingdom








sea3.jpg


Going over to southwestern china the ethnic tusi's there have long been a pet project of Semi-lobster who wrote this text about the guangxi zhuang tusis

The far reaches of Guangxi represented the furthest reaches of the authority of the Ming Emperor, far away in Beijing the emperor delegated commandaries and military garrisons faded into shared and deferred authority. The regions of the south instead relied on "tusi" local rulers who swore vassalage to the Emperor, while maintaining their own Zhuang local rule. The Zhuang people are a Tai peoples who long resisted Chinese domination and can trace their history back to the Yue states of classical China. The Zhuang are generally regarded as the ancestor of all modern Tai peoples, who began migrating from the region into modern South East Asia in the 11th century. In exchange for soldiers, rice, or gold, tusi offered their loyalty to China and in exchange they would gain recognition as the legitimate rulers of their polities. The Ming had little choice, their bureaucrats and soldiers where not used to the climate and could not effectively maintain rule over the area. Attempts to centralize the area by the Ming often simply led to massive spikes in murder and banditry and the loss of income. Many times in Chinese history, tusi acted as feudal marches to China's borders.

In Guangxi local 'great families' emerged from the Tusi, through marriage, warfare or espionage, these families soon controlling multiple Tusi. One powerful family that emerged in the early 11th century was Nong Quanfu, citing constant harassment and attacks on the Zhuang people by Dai Viet and the Song established an independent Kingdom named Changsheng which was eventually crushed in 1039. Although captured and executed by the Vietnamese, his son Nong Zhigao, would have more success, once using his family's network to raise an army and ruled an independent Zhuang state from 1042-1055. The Nong clan's success led to distrust by the other Zhuang clans who refused to aid the Nong and eventually the Nong clan were once again defeated and fled south to what is now Laos and Thailand. From then on, the preeminent families were the Cen, Huang and Mo clans. While the holds of the Huang and Mo were impressive the Cen controlled the most, including their capital, Tianzhou. The martial prowess of the Zhuang were well appreciated by the Ming, an example of this was Lady Wa Shi of the Cen clan, who poisoned her own husband, ostensibly because he was going to start a rebellion against the Ming. Lady Wa Shi was appointed to regional commander of Guangxi and her soldiers were integral to defending the coast from wokou pirates, winning key battle in modern Shanghai and Suzhou and Jiaxing between 1555-1557.

The power of the Guangxi Zhuang tusi were so powerful and integral to China, that not even the transition to the Qing dynasty affected them until 1726 when the local Tusi were finally liquidated. The 18th century from that point on in Guangxi would be a constant low level insurgency against the Manchu with true direct rule never truly being achieved in the wild western reaches.

In 1521, several years after defeating an invading Zhuang army from neighbouring Sicheng Tusi led by his cousin, the young Cen Meng had solidified his rule of Tianzhou but, either his success in retaining his title or the resentment of being demoted (the Ming would bestow tusi rulers official Ming government titles, often with salaries based on rank). In 1521 Cen invased neighbouring Sicheng tusi and by 1525, had taken more than half of all Guangxi tusi for himself, poisoned officials, robbed and murdered civilians, and stopped paying tribute to the Ming. In 1526, the Ming mustered 100,000 troops (including native troops from neighbouring tusi) under governor Yao Mao while Cen commanded an equal number. A series of decisive Ming victories over the entrenched Zhuang brought the war to a swift end. Cen Meng was captured and executed while fleeing to Vietnam and his wife, Lady Wa Shi, was made regent.

The provinces would need to be abstractions to avoid too many small states, instead I propose a simpler solution, 2 states with 2 provinces each, Tianzhou and Siming in 1444:
Tianzhou would have black 1 and 2 (Wenshan, and the capital Tianzhou), Leader: Cen Shao (older, with a son, Cen Yong with a weak claim)
Siming would have black 3 and 4 (Nandan, and the capital Siming), Leader: Huang Gang (older, with a son, Huang Jun with a normal claim)


Besides zhuang tusi we've also added the Nakhi tusi in northern Yunnan combining the tusi's of Lijiang and Yongning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiefdom_of_Yongning (which also includes the later muli kingdom in tibet)

All the new tusi states follow the established pattern of being tributaries of ming at start

I think this is all from us now, might add up some detail later on but I hope Neondt have the opportunity to go over this and take the suggestion into consideration
 

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Shahanshah759

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This is very good! I'm glad you are on board with my culture suggestions. :)

I'd like to also draw your attention to another of my suggestions relating to Ayutthaya's mandala that suggests a few new tags to represent the kingdom's semi-autonomous vassals (like Ligor/Nakhon Si Thammarat): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/releasable-tags-in-thailand.1405460/

Would this be compatible with your suggestion to add vassal tags in the Shan and Lao region?
 

Someone Borrowed

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I think, during the part about vassals and the mandala system after going over your changes to the Shan states, you start talking about Lan Na, but I think you meant to talk about Lan Xiang? Specifically, you talked about how "Lan Na" went through a series of civil wars and interregnums during this period, and then suggested something along the lines of breaking the northeastern part of Laos away from "Lan Na".

I think that's probably the best that could be done for Lan Xiang anyway, I think it'll still be a strong unified state since EUIV doesn't model dynastic secession and internal strife well enough in my opinion without special disasters or mechanics to have it pose a serious threat to a country even if it's supposed to be declining (i.e. Mali or Majapahit).
 
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AirikrStrife

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This is very good! I'm glad you are on board with my culture suggestions. :)

I'd like to also draw your attention to another of my suggestions relating to Ayutthaya's mandala that suggests a few new tags to represent the kingdom's semi-autonomous vassals (like Ligor/Nakhon Si Thammarat): https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/releasable-tags-in-thailand.1405460/

Would this be compatible with your suggestion to add vassal tags in the Shan and Lao region?

I see it as possibilities, more tagsis good in the region but ayuttahya don't need more vassals (two is enough) what really would need more tags is cmabodia, and really anything to nerf cambodia be good but we couldn't find much, ha tien was independent for some time later on, there were some autonomous ocmmunities in the south, the state seems to have been pretty fractured with low central authority but without any outright break away states or the like
 
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Aramenian

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I would like to see the playable country of Tianzhou. I'm on yes.
You both did a great job with this information. I hope that at least some of the proposed changes will come into the game.
 
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JKiller96

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Another great suggestion. Good to see the research done by you three.
 
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Someone Borrowed

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Thoughts:

Most of it is pretty great, I'm no expert on SEA so I don't have much to say in the way of historical accuracy.

There's couple of suggestions that's unclear though:

In the Laos section, you described your proposed changes as, "As well the northeastern areas of Laos were still at the time more or less independent tribes, Muang Phuang, sip song chau tai, so since the tag already exists I suggest having control over aformentioned provinces, Xiangkhouang and Sip song chau tai[.]"

Do you mean you want to make Muang Phuang independent and having control over Muang Phuang, Sip Song Chau Tai, and Xiangkhouang? Or would they be a vassal to Lan Xiang?

Regarding the Tusi, you suggested, "Tianzhou would have black 1 and 2 (Wenshan, and the capital Tianzhou), Leader: Cen Shao (older, with a son, Cen Yong with a weak claim)
"Siming would have black 3 and 4 (Nandan, and the capital Siming), Leader: Huang Gang (older, with a son, Huang Jun with a normal claim)
"Besides zhuang tusi we've also added the Nakhi tusi in northern Yunnan combining the tusi's of Lijiang and Yongning[.]"

Would these be independent? Or tributaries of Ming? Or would they be marches? How would they be affected by a dynasty change in China? How would the "Introduce Gaituguiliu" Celestial reform affect them?

(Personal thoughts: If they're marches, it would take up Ming's diplomatic slots, which would be great for keeping Ming from allying with other countries. However, I think Ming should be de-incentivised from annexing them somehow, since the AI tends to just annex its starting vassals ASAP (like what usually happens to Ligor and Sukothai currently).)

A few other things:

I noticed you added a new province to Prome, could you talk about that?

Why do you think Cambodia is still too strong?

Would there be something in place to represent the Cham's conversion to Islam and migration into Cambodia?
 
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AirikrStrife

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Thoughts:

Most of it is pretty great, I'm no expert on SEA so I don't have much to say in the way of historical accuracy.

There's couple of suggestions that's unclear though:

In the Laos section, you described your proposed changes as, "As well the northeastern areas of Laos were still at the time more or less independent tribes, Muang Phuang, sip song chau tai, so since the tag already exists I suggest having control over aformentioned provinces, Xiangkhouang and Sip song chau tai[.]"

Do you mean you want to make Muang Phuang independent and having control over Muang Phuang, Sip Song Chau Tai, and Xiangkhouang? Or would they be a vassal to Lan Xiang?

Regarding the Tusi, you suggested, "Tianzhou would have black 1 and 2 (Wenshan, and the capital Tianzhou), Leader: Cen Shao (older, with a son, Cen Yong with a weak claim)
"Siming would have black 3 and 4 (Nandan, and the capital Siming), Leader: Huang Gang (older, with a son, Huang Jun with a normal claim)
"Besides zhuang tusi we've also added the Nakhi tusi in northern Yunnan combining the tusi's of Lijiang and Yongning[.]"

Would these be independent? Or tributaries of Ming? Or would they be marches? How would they be affected by a dynasty change in China? How would the "Introduce Gaituguiliu" Celestial reform affect them?

(Personal thoughts: If they're marches, it would take up Ming's diplomatic slots, which would be great for keeping Ming from allying with other countries. However, I think Ming should be de-incentivised from annexing them somehow, since the AI tends to just annex its starting vassals ASAP (like what usually happens to Ligor and Sukothai currently).)

A few other things:

I noticed you added a new province to Prome, could you talk about that?

Why do you think Cambodia is still too strong?

Would there be something in place to represent the Cham's conversion to Islam and migration into Cambodia?


Thank you for pointing this out, I have clarified some of those points.


To the question on cambodia, cambodia entered what's known as the cambodian dark ages in 1431 in which the cambodian state were very weak, having them with equal development to the other major powers in indochina with no detriments and good NI makes them for a powerplayer in the region from the get go, something they weren't


For the conversation of cham to islam: no, we have made no plans facilitating that, the propagate religion feature inroduced in dharma (I think it was) is supposed to cover the move of islam into SEA, although it hasn't been a very successful mechanic in doing that.
 
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To the question on cambodia, cambodia entered what's known as the cambodian dark ages in 1431 in which the cambodian state were very weak, having them with equal development to the other major powers in indochina with no detriments and good NI makes them for a powerplayer in the region from the get go, something they weren't
My personal viewpoint is that while Cambodia right now in the EUIV start is significantly more powerful than it should be if it was to be historically represented in a snapshot of the state of the world in 1444, it's weak enough in my opinion as the years go on. Yes the state is stronger, but its enemies are much more militaristic. Ayutthaya even starts with a core I think. Regardless, especially if Vietnam is buffed, I think Cambodia's enemies would be able to swallow it arguably faster than they did in real life.

Although, if Lan Na is buffed, then I don't know how that might affect Ayutthaya's ability to wage war on Cambodia. To say nothing of what might happen with an expansionist Malacca/Majapahit/Brunei.
 

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It's at pretty much the same power balance as the other SEA countries (in current patch), the only buff ayutthaya got is it's vassals. Ayutthaya got no bonuses to military strength in NI's and only mil idea they got at all is boost to manpower and mercenary maintenance

Khmer have 10% morale as their first idea and later on 5% discipline. I think it's fine that a restored khmer empire have strong starting ideas but they should be in a state of collapse, they should be the byzantine empire of SEA but as of now there's nothing putting them in a weaker positions from ther neighbours except possibly their religious unity at start, which fun fact also gives them an easy possibility to convert to hinduism which is a superior religion to buddhism with stronger modifiers
 
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Nice work guys! Your map design of Guangxi in particular is really nice, and as you suggested, Ming should probably have some Tusi vassals in the area centered around Tianzhou; the Cen clan was very influential and I’m pretty sure the current Changsheng tag is meant to represent them in some way.
 

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It's at pretty much the same power balance as the other SEA countries (in current patch), the only buff ayutthaya got is it's vassals. Ayutthaya got no bonuses to military strength in NI's and only mil idea they got at all is boost to manpower and mercenary maintenance

Khmer have 10% morale as their first idea and later on 5% discipline. I think it's fine that a restored khmer empire have strong starting ideas but they should be in a state of collapse, they should be the byzantine empire of SEA but as of now there's nothing putting them in a weaker positions from ther neighbours except possibly their religious unity at start, which fun fact also gives them an easy possibility to convert to hinduism which is a superior religion to buddhism with stronger modifiers
Hm in my experience Ayutthaya always seems to be top dog in SEA, but that might be confirmation bias. I agree that Khmer should probably be weaker.

Come to think of it it seems to be in the same boat as Majapahit, except Khmer still has powerful neighbors. But I guess that's an issue inherent in EUIV's base design (internal factors leading to a nation's decline not being represented without special mechanics) and not reliably fixed. Maybe Khmer's estates could start off very powerful (<15% crownland), or its neighbors (Lan Xiang?) get cores on Khmer provinces. Alternatively, "Invade Cambodia" missions granting permanent claims?

I think one possible method is to change the "mandala" government reform to grant penalties for having no vassals. Perhaps this would only apply to independent countries above a development threshold, and increase unrest and decrease legitimacy, prestige, power projection, and estate loyalty? Or, it could be a disaster that spawns pretender/noble/maybe peasant rebels. The way I see it is nobles become upset at the country's weakness as a sign of illegitimacy and try to seize power for themselves, spawning pretender or noble rebels. If average devastation is high enough, then peasant rebels might spawn too in response to the anarchy gripping the country, I'm not sure.
 
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Shahanshah759

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Hm in my experience Ayutthaya always seems to be top dog in SEA, but that might be confirmation bias. I agree that Khmer should probably be weaker.

Come to think of it it seems to be in the same boat as Majapahit, except Khmer still has powerful neighbors. But I guess that's an issue inherent in EUIV's base design (internal factors leading to a nation's decline not being represented without special mechanics) and not reliably fixed. Maybe Khmer's estates could start off very powerful (<15% crownland), or its neighbors (Lan Xiang?) get cores on Khmer provinces. Alternatively, "Invade Cambodia" missions granting permanent claims?

I think one possible method is to change the "mandala" government reform to grant penalties for having no vassals. Perhaps this would only apply to independent countries above a development threshold, and increase unrest and decrease legitimacy, prestige, power projection, and estate loyalty? Or, it could be a disaster that spawns pretender/noble/maybe peasant rebels. The way I see it is nobles become upset at the country's weakness as a sign of illegitimacy and try to seize power for themselves, spawning pretender or noble rebels. If average devastation is high enough, then peasant rebels might spawn too in response to the anarchy gripping the country, I'm not sure.

I like your thoughts on the mandala government system; it should definitely be fleshed out with some new mechanics and your suggestions make a lot of sense. In my experience, it's Lan Xang who tends to blob pretty aggressively killing Khmer and Dai Viet (they're already trying to fix this with the new mountain range between Laos and Vietnam. If they start without vassals, your suggestions to the mandala mechanics could hinder their expansion.
 
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I like your thoughts on the mandala government system; it should definitely be fleshed out with some new mechanics and your suggestions make a lot of sense. In my experience, it's Lan Xang who tends to blob pretty aggressively killing Khmer and Dai Viet (they're already trying to fix this with the new mountain range between Laos and Vietnam. If they start without vassals, your suggestions to the mandala mechanics could hinder their expansion.
I think that contradicts a bit with AirikrStrife's idea to add Muang Phuang as a vassal of Lan Xang at the 1444 start though. A compromise solution would be to make the mandala penalties for not having vassals instead scale exponentially with average vassal liberty desire. In this case then Muang Phuang would start with high liberty desire.

So at 50% the penalties are pretty light, but as liberty desire rises the penalties get suddenly harsher and harsher, and then is doubled if no vassals. To keep force vassalization from being a death sentence, I think there's two workarounds. First is the penalty itself could be multiplied by 0.5 or 0.25 if a truce exists between any vassal and the overlord. Alternatively, if a truce exists between the overlord and a vassal, that vassal's liberty desire contribution to the average liberty desire (which is used to scale penalties) would be multiplied by 0.5 or 0.25.

I know this means once you have a bunch of vassals having one or two with high liberty desire wouldn't really affect the overall stability of the country and could be exploited to avoid the penalty (maybe with a bunch of loyal OPM vassals and a large new vassal), but you're still giving up dip slots so I think it could be balanced.

I'm just a bit worried how this would be justified with the mandala government reform. I'm no expert, and what I know is just the polity is defined by its center and its borders are vague, especially administratively. So if someone could clarify what a vassal represents under a mandala system, I'd be very grateful.

(I am aware this screws Ava over.)
 

Shahanshah759

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I think that contradicts a bit with AirikrStrife's idea to add Muang Phuang as a vassal of Lan Xang at the 1444 start though. A compromise solution would be to make the mandala penalties for not having vassals instead scale exponentially with average vassal liberty desire. In this case then Muang Phuang would start with high liberty desire.

So at 50% the penalties are pretty light, but as liberty desire rises the penalties get suddenly harsher and harsher, and then is doubled if no vassals. To keep force vassalization from being a death sentence, I think there's two workarounds. First is the penalty itself could be multiplied by 0.5 or 0.25 if a truce exists between any vassal and the overlord. Alternatively, if a truce exists between the overlord and a vassal, that vassal's liberty desire contribution to the average liberty desire (which is used to scale penalties) would be multiplied by 0.5 or 0.25.

I know this means once you have a bunch of vassals having one or two with high liberty desire wouldn't really affect the overall stability of the country and could be exploited to avoid the penalty (maybe with a bunch of loyal OPM vassals and a large new vassal), but you're still giving up dip slots so I think it could be balanced.

I'm just a bit worried how this would be justified with the mandala government reform. I'm no expert, and what I know is just the polity is defined by its center and its borders are vague, especially administratively. So if someone could clarify what a vassal represents under a mandala system, I'd be very grateful.

(I am aware this screws Ava over.)

To the best of my knowledge, a mandala is a Hindu/Buddhist model of government where areas controlled by provincial governors and tributaries are seen as part of the "state" even though there is little to no direct control from the centre. Mandalas' "borders" could expand and contract based on the military power and internal cohesion of the centre (usually a single, large capital city and the surrounding crownlands) as this determined a monarch's ability to expand their influence. What is tricky is that some mandalas had more tributary states than it did semi-autonomous provinces ("mueang," in the context of mainland SEA), others vice-versa. Maybe we should look at one example (like Ayutthaya) and try to model mechanics based on that? Ideally vassals and tributaries would both play a role (if you consider vassals as representing muaeng). The devs might already have something in the works considering that @neondt said "A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities."
 

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So in order to both buff the decidedly very strong Lan Na state to and to be more historically accurate, I suggest a new tag, Kentung, controlling the provinces of Kentung, Keng Hung (sibsongbanna) and Luang Namtha, starting as a vassal of Lan Na. (all territory marked by black circle)

I just want to reiterate this point. Even if no new provinces are added in the Burma-Yunnan frontier, Sibsongbanna province should not be in the same kingdom as Dehong province and should rather be part of an independent tag that is a tributary of Lan Na (I suggest Keng Hung but this suggestion has it included in Kengtung, which is also acceptable). While Mong Mao was a rebellious Ming tusi by 1444, the Sibsongbanna/Keng Hung area fell into Lan Na control in the early 1400s.
 
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To the best of my knowledge, a mandala is a Hindu/Buddhist model of government where areas controlled by provincial governors and tributaries are seen as part of the "state" even though there is little to no direct control from the centre. Mandalas' "borders" could expand and contract based on the military power and internal cohesion of the centre (usually a single, large capital city and the surrounding crownlands) as this determined a monarch's ability to expand their influence. What is tricky is that some mandalas had more tributary states than it did semi-autonomous provinces ("mueang," in the context of mainland SEA), others vice-versa. Maybe we should look at one example (like Ayutthaya) and try to model mechanics based on that? Ideally vassals and tributaries would both play a role (if you consider vassals as representing muaeng). The devs might already have something in the works considering that @neondt said "A design goal for Mainland SEA nations in the 1.31 update is to emphasize vassal play and the development of capital super-cities."
Hmm I see, then I'm not sure what "canon" rationale there would be for giving penalties for disloyal or no vassals. At most prestige loss I guess, but not unrest or a disaster. Penalties for low autonomy sounds more plausible honestly.
Then moving the focus to Northeast india, an area that is in desperate need to be looked at in order to solve some gross historical inaccuracies.

On a bit northward we have another case of anachronism, basically Assam starts in a set up more accurate for the 1520's-1530's. We added a bunch of provinces to better portray the area aswell as the actual historic set up. But the most important changes are that the Ahom kingdom were in the 15th century very small and would rather be an OPM with the Kamata kingdom (from the 16th century ruled by the koch dynasty) controlled the territory west of assam and Chutiya dominating in the east and north. We laso opened up more of arunachal pradesh, the tibetan Monpa province and a province for the Nishi people (could be part of Chutiya or start as tribal OPM). The case for the Nishi hillpeople are they are part of the region, frequently raiding the chutiya and later ahom while also paying tribute, represting the region as complete wasteland, is inaccurate.

In my map I mark Chutiya with black circle, Kamata with blue and Ahom with green

So in short:
Assam should be reduced to an OPM only controlling its capital, Chutiya (renamed sadiya) controls eastern and northern assam as well as a new province in Arunachal. Kamata (renamed koch) controls western assam


In the larger region of Assam we have also removed the meghalaya wasteland and instead have a two province kingdom of Jaintia, controlling the provinces of Khasi and Jaintia
I just remembered this from my Assam campaign, to me it's more of a balance issue than a historical issue because I have basically zero knowledge of Assamese history, but anyway: there needs to be a center of trade in Assam.

This is more of an issue with the Burma trade node itself though, as it has only one center of trade, a level II center of trade in Ava. Aside from the fact that the trade node itself needs at least a smattering of level I centers of trade and maybe also can transfer trade to Siam, there's a specific Assam-oriented issue: it encourages expansion into Burma to get more trade power, since it's just seize as many provinces as you can instead of only the strategic ones.

For the Burmese states, or the Shan states, that's fine, but for Assam it doesn't make much sense. I know the Bengal trade node is much richer and a more logical target of expansion to maximize profits, but it's also stupidly hard to get a high share of trade power (as whoever's dominant in the Coromandel trade node *cough cough* Vijayanagar *cough* gets like 20% and so does Malacca trade powers) and an Assamese player with only partial control of Bengal would shift instead to Burmese conquest to try to reroute Burmese trade to Bengal.

Okay the more I talk the less it seems like it encourages unreasonable expansion into Burma, but yeah, still doesn't seem balanced to me why Assam has no centers of trade and entire Burma trade node has only one center of trade.
 

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I just want to reiterate this point. Even if no new provinces are added in the Burma-Yunnan frontier, Sibsongbanna province should not be in the same kingdom as Dehong province and should rather be part of an independent tag that is a tributary of Lan Na (I suggest Keng Hung but this suggestion has it included in Kengtung, which is also acceptable). While Mong Mao was a rebellious Ming tusi by 1444, the Sibsongbanna/Keng Hung area fell into Lan Na control in the early 1400s.
Yeah absolutely. Sipsongpanna was its own independent Shan state and it definitely shouldn’t be a part of Mong Mao. Realistically Mong Mao shouldn’t be as small as it is in the first place, as it pretty much encompassed all of Mong Yang and Mong Kawng until the state was partitioned by Ming. Why exactly the devs thought Mong Mao was a two province minor stretching across modern Dehong and Xishuangbanna is beyond my understanding honestly.
 

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Hi I'm Semi-Lobster, the guy responsible for the map! Thanks for everybody's comments! Sorry I haven't commented until now on this thread, i've been tied up with work but I'm eager to get back into the saddle with this. I want to reiterate that @AirikrStrife and I have been working on this project for a few months, long before anybody knew that Paradox would be making a South East Asia update so that's why some of our choices for provinces are different. The map we made make emphasis on EXTERNAL national borders and the geographic realities of the provinces. As a Cambodian-Canadian it's great to see so many new provinces for Cambodia but.... in reality Cambodia was in very bad shape during the 1400s, Cambodia's 'Dark Age' (although it will be really fun to rebuild the old Empire now!) meanwhile Vietnam received very few new provinces even though Dai Viet arguably was one of the most powerful states in the region. Dai Viet's biggest development was the intense agricultural programs that led to a population boom from an estimated 1.8 million in 1417 to 5.6 million by 1539. (Routledge Handbook of Southeast Asian History). There are some other decisions related to culture that I also deeply disagree with from Paradox's map but I'l go into detail on that later. We focused on mainland South East Asia as there are already several excellent map suggestions for the islands of South East Asia and ignored modern borders that had nothing to do historical borders.

Because of Paradox's SURPRISE announcement we decided to get the suggestion out quicker so I will be making posts that will go into more detail for the provinces. First off, most importantly, rather than a bunch of numbers, here are the names of the provinces. I'm not an expert on colours but I hope this makes sense!


Deep Pink, North Tenassarim:
1. Mergui
2. Phetchaburi
3. Ratchaburi
4. Mergui

Burgundy, Central Thailand:
1. Ayutthaya
2. Chanthaburi
3. Nakhon Nayok
4. Thonburi
5. Kanchanaburi

Hot Pink, Sukhothai:
1. Sukhothai
2. Phitsanulok
3. Phra Bang
4. Tak

Reddish Purple, Lan Na:
1. Chiang Mai
2. Chiang Rai
3. Phayao
4. Nan
5. Mueang Phichai

Green, Cambodia:
1. Chaktomuk
2. Oudong
3. Angkor
4. Battambang
5. Phnom Krâvanh

Bright Green, Mekong:
1. Prey Nokor
2. Prey Russey
3. Teuk Khmao
4. Banteay Meas

Forest Green, Mondulkiri:
1. Stung Treng
2. Kratie
3. Jarai
4. Don
5. Dak Lak

Light Green, Champa:
1. Panduranga
2. Kauthara
3. Vijaya
4. Indrapura

Dark Green, Tonkin:
1. Thanh Hóa
2. Nghệ An
3. Hà Tĩnh
4. Đồng Hới
5. Huế

Neon Green, Sông Hông:
1. Tuyên Quang
2. Cao Bằng
3. Đông Kin
4. Hải Phòng
5. An Nam Giang

Black, Outer Guangxi:
1. Wenshan
2. Tianzhou
3. Nandan
4. Siming

Pink, Inner Guangxi:
1. Liuzhou
2. Guilin
3. Nanning
4. Ngchow

Dark Blue, Luang Prabang:
1. Muang Phuan
2. Houaphanh
3. Sipsong Chau Tai
4. Luang Prabang
5. Muang Sing

Deep Blue, Vientiane:
1. Vientiane
2. Sikhottabong
3. Nong Khai
4. Savanh Nakhone

Dark Purple, Khorat:
1. Nongbua Lamphu
2. Chaiyaphum
3. Roi Et
4. Khorat

Darker Pruple, Champasak:
1. Surin
2. Khukhan
3. Champasak
4. Attapeu

Powder Blue, Transalween:
1. Kengtung
2. Chiang Hung
3. Mong Lem
4. Mang Lon
5. Mong Mao

Dull Blue, Northern Shan:
1. Hsenwi
2. Hsipaw
3. Mong Mit

Seafoam Green, Southern Shan:
1. Yawnghwe
2. Mong Kung
3. Mong Nai
4. Mong Pai
5. Mawkmai

Deep Purple, Karreni:
1. Kantarawadi
2. Mae Yuam
3. Payathonzu

Yellow Green, Lower Burma:
1. Moulmein
2. Martaban
3. Pegu
4. Dagon
5. Panthein

Dull Green, Central Burma:
1. Taungu
2. Tharrawaddy
3. Prome
4. Salin
5. Yamethin

Yellow, Upper Burma:
1. Pagan
2. Ava
3. Sagaing
4. Tabayin
5. Taugaung

Electric Blue, Kachin:
1. Mong Yang
2. Wanmaw
3. Mong Kawng
4. Hukawng
5. Hkmati Long

Orange, Chindwin:
1. Tamanthi
2. Hsawnghsup
3. Kale

Bronze, Rakhine:
1. Sandoway
2. Mrauk U
3. Ramu
4. Tsittagung

Reddish Brown, Tripura:
1. Srihotto
2. Twirpa
3. Lushai Hills
4. Rangamatte

Red, Kachar:
1. Khasi
2. Jaintia
3. Naga
4. Cachar
5. Kangleipak

Grey, Upper Assam:
1. Ahom
2. Naryanpur
3. Sadiya
4. Matak

Dark Grey, Lower Assam:
1. Koch Hajo
2. Darrang
3. Kaliabor

Salmon Pink, North Bengal:
1. Baikunthopur
2. Koch
3. Nasirabad
4. Rangpur
5. Purnia

Dark Red, Bhutan:
1. Thimpu
2. Punakha
3. Monyul
4. Nishmi Hills

White, Yunnan:
1. Lijiang
2. Yongning
3. Dali
4. Pu'er

There is a reason and history for EVERY new or changed or renamed province which I will be getting into over the coming weeks when I have the time. There are several new nations and revolters, some of which I think are VERY cool, including a crazy casino, pirate state. I will be discussing the history, culture, polities and economics of the new provinces and states. airikr and I worked on the basis of total regional development to reflect the power these states had historically.

There is also, a small second map we made. My 4K resolution couldn't get everything in one map, so here is a small map of changes we are suggesting for the south.

8OLFzNv.jpg


The legend for this map is:
Orange, Central Tenassarim:
1. Chaiya
2. Tanjung Salang
3. Nakhon Si Thammarat
4. Singgora

Light Blue, South Tenassarim:
1. Terang
2. Kedah
3. Pattani

I will be posting more, hopefully soon. I would like to post more often but this may end up as a "weekly" thing but I hope you enjoy them!
 
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