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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning


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Jun 18, 2003
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Ah, alright. Maybe I wasn't being quite clear about what I'd suggest. In the sequence I would like to implement, "Baden" wouldn't represent the Margraviate, but the domains of Albrecht VI in the Vorlande, that he ruled after the partition agreement with his brother Friedrich III/V in 1446, with his residence in Freiburg (capital of Breisgau and province capital of our Baden province, which essentially is supposed to represent Breisgau right now).

I'm not at all opposed to the reintroduction of the Margraviate of Baden in general. It was removed from the 1419 setup because Baden (the margraviate, or "Altbaden" as it is sometimes called in German, to distinguish the core territories from the territories Baden acquired in the beginning of the 19th century, which are commonly also referred to as "Baden") isn't really that large a territory - in fact, e.g.this map shows that Breisgau covered more territory than the margraviate. It only became a big and rather powerful territorial state during the Napoleonic Wars, where it profited a lot from its early alliance with France, obtaining the Palatine territories east of the Rhine, the Breisgau, some territory from Wirtemberg and several smaller ecclesiastic territories, principalities and imperial cities, and betrayed Napoleon early enough to be able to keep its acquisitions at the Congress of Vienna. The most important cities in the area during the EU2 period were Freiburg and Konstanz, which were both under Hapsburg suzerainty as part of Vorderösterreich (Karlsruhe was founded as new residence of the Margraves only in 1715, and Durlach, the old residence, was and still is little more than a village).
For these reasons and in order to strengthen Tyrol, it was deemed preferable to have the province represent Breisgau instead of Altbaden. The plan (which was never implemented; I really have a bad habit of overloading my agenda) was to make Baden independent during the Napoleonic Wars (more exactly, upon its acquisition of Breisgau in 1805).
That said, while those arguments IMO justify representing Breisgau instead of the Margraviate when forced to choose, they are by hardly any means arguments against the inclusion of both if that is possible - the Margraviate of Baden, despite being relatively small, and being partitioned into two territories (Baden-Durlach and Baden-Baden) from 1535 to 1771, had quite an interesting history, and Baden-Durlach was one of the leading members of the Protestant Union in the Thirty Years War. With the new map, which has a Baden and a Breisgau province, this possibility will exist and should of course be used (any other setup, like a two province Baden, both provinces being owned by Tyrol or anyone else owning one of the provinces would hardly be justifiable). The only little drawback is that we'll need an additional tag to represent an independent Albrecht if the sequence is to be implemented as I suggested. I would suggest calling that country Further Austria (Vorderösterreich).

Until the new map is released, I'd be inclined to prefer working with the Baden province representing Breisgau.

Thats all fine and I agree with the history you presented, which brings me to the other idea i had ( which i forgot to mention) was for baden to exist in 1419 as a vassal of HAB , while TYL took alsace and dealt with the sale with BUR further along in time.

i was looking at this for the AGCEEP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-baden
with the interesting "monarchs" that they had beginning from Bernard I

at this point with the division of baden, was when i was willing to end its renaissance history and give it to HAB

Anyway, just ideas to improve the game. awaiting on what u want to do