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Svantevid

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Just in case you missed it, here is how I rewrote Austria inherits Styria events to enable Styria to become Austria.
 

motiv-8

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Sorry to go back to something that was way in the beginning of the topic, but if you are going to model the 1418-19 war between Hungary and the Ottomans, a good way of modelling Sigismund's request for help to the Teutonic Order would be to have an event describing the situation that grants say.. 5,000 men to Hungary. And maybe an event that grants the Teutonic Order a small amount of ducats -- unless they historically volunteered to go for free.
 

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Svantevid said:
Just in case you missed it, here is how I rewrote Austria inherits Styria events to enable Styria to become Austria.

Hadn't seen them yet :eek:o The event chain will however have do be done slightly differently if the conflict between Friedrich V and Albrecht VI is implemented according to what I've proposed. In fact, I've reserved tonight for writing up something :)
 
Last edited:

Toio

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Svantevid said:
I would also like the Counts of Cilli added to the sequence. Preferably an independent Cilli. But the problem with it is that it would turn both Styria and Cilli into one province countries, and I dislike that idea. I have so far come up with two possible solutions for 1436 when Cilli became independent:

why waste a tag on cilli ??

I see no benefit for the game with this.

2. Styria starts the game as owner of Istria (with Venice having a core on it). I think there's a good chance it would still possess it in 1436, and remain a 2 province country when either Steiermark or Krain is made into Cilli. And, if Cilli as 1 province was too weak, Hungary could cede Croatia to it, since Cillis had possesssions and various titles there.

if historically Istria was the first venetian possetion (outside of venice) prior to the 4th crusades 1204 , how does it become stryian ?, OR are you proposing a fantasy event??
 

Twoflower

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We obviously cannot take Istria from Venice, it needs the province badly. The only workable way to implement Cilli would be on the new map if a Carintia province is added so Styria starts with Styria, Carinthia and Carniola. Even then, an independent Cilli in Carniola would mean quite an inaccuracy since they never became Dukes of Carniola or owned the capital of Carniola, Laibach; Cilli would only really fit into a separate Cilli province, and I'd be opposed to implementing a province that would be useful for 20 years and quite useless for the rest of the EU2 period.
So, sorry to say, but although I have lobbied for including Cilli in the past, I'm now inclined towards not having it as a country and only representing the Counts of Cilli in Styrian, Austrian and Hungarian events.
If one additional tag can be used in the area, I'd very much favour giving it Slovakia because of its double purpose - representing both Jan Jiskra and Imre Thököly, who could both spice up things quite a lot.
 

Toio

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Twoflower said:
We obviously cannot take Istria from Venice, it needs the province badly. The only workable way to implement Cilli would be on the new map if a Carintia province is added so Styria starts with Styria, Carinthia and Carniola. Even then, an independent Cilli in Carniola would mean quite an inaccuracy since they never became Dukes of Carniola or owned the capital of Carniola, Laibach; Cilli would only really fit into a separate Cilli province, and I'd be opposed to implementing a province that would be useful for 20 years and quite useless for the rest of the EU2 period.
So, sorry to say, but although I have lobbied for including Cilli in the past, I'm now inclined towards not having it as a country and only representing the Counts of Cilli in Styrian, Austrian and Hungarian events.
If one additional tag can be used in the area, I'd very much favour giving it Slovakia because of its double purpose - representing both Jan Jiskra and Imre Thököly, who could both spice up things quite a lot.

according to this map and others that i have seen for the same period, cilli is east of styria. if it is to be included in the current agceep map then it should go where ODENBURG is

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm
 

Svantevid

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Cilli is in in the southern part of Styria. After WWI that part of Styria became part of the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. To represent an exact historical Cilli would mean splitting the province of Steiermark in two, Upper and Lower Steiermark. That might be useful not only for Cilli, but also for the reign of Korvinus. But not later.

So to represent Cilli on the current map, and it appears the new one would be no approvement in that regard, either province of Krain or Steiermark would have to be used. True, they were never dukes of Krain, but they held large estates in Carniola and Carinthia (IIRC those around Spittal were actually part of their princedom, while those in Carniola were not). While the existence of Cilli was brief, its impact much surpassed the boundaries of its territory - Ulrich, taking care of Ladislaus was practically regent of Hungary, at least in name, and if Tvrtko's wishes were regarded, Cilli would have inherited Bosnia - so being represented by rebels is inadequate, to say the least. And, as I said, its tag could be reused later for Napolen's Illyric provinces.

I quite agree Slovakia should have a tag.

As for the province of Istria, I shouldn't think it represents only the peninsula (of wich two thirds were Venetian, and one third Habsburg), but also the lands around Trieste, and maybe even more. My point being that applying history to it, it would show a roughly 50:50 division between Venice and Habsburg, and it's wrong to say that the province of Istria must belong to Venice for historical reasons. That it's needed for gameplay reasons is a much more valid argument for me, although I can't judge how correct it is, not being aware of any tests made to support it.
 

Toio

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Svantevid said:
Cilli is in in the southern part of Styria. After WWI that part of Styria became part of the kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. To represent an exact historical Cilli would mean splitting the province of Steiermark in two, Upper and Lower Steiermark. That might be useful not only for Cilli, but also for the reign of Korvinus. But not later.

You forgot to take in consideration the migration of people. You are incorrect in that the slovenes at around 1400 were south of stryia but east of styria.

The slovenians move to were they are now dure to the fact that the serbs moved northward to get away from the advancing turks.

cilli and I will state again is east of stryia like the enclosed map i sent. As well as every other map i recently viewed.

Its like, if EU2 was set in the 650 Ads then we would place the croats and serbs in southern poland and not were they are in 2005.
 

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Toio said:
You forgot to take in consideration the migration of people. You are incorrect in that the slovenes at around 1400 were south of stryia but east of styria.

The slovenians move to were they are now dure to the fact that the serbs moved northward to get away from the advancing turks.

cilli and I will state again is east of stryia like the enclosed map i sent. As well as every other map i recently viewed.

Its like, if EU2 was set in the 650 Ads then we would place the croats and serbs in southern poland and not were they are in 2005.

What you say is completely and utterly wrong and I suggest you consult some history books before we continue this discussion. As for geography, Cilli is a german name for the roman city Celeia, called Celje in slovene. The city hasn't been moving around.
 

Toio

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Svantevid said:
What you say is completely and utterly wrong and I suggest you consult some history books before we continue this discussion. As for geography, Cilli is a german name for the roman city Celeia, called Celje in slovene. The city hasn't been moving around.

Are you saying that the map I submitted is wrong ??

does it show cilli east of styria . yes or no?

I see no proof that it was south of styria, and i have consulted many books and the internet.

besides cilli had no connection to the sea. (I put this in so u can comment on this)

even if cilli had its own tag in the new HC map, I would OPPOSE the position of cilli if it was south.

show me the proof.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(12990)

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Toio said:
Are you saying that the map I submitted is wrong ??

does it show cilli east of styria . yes or no?

I see no proof that it was south of styria, and i have consulted many books and the internet.

besides cilli had no connection to the sea. (I put this in so u can comment on this)

even if cilli had its own tag in the new HC map, I would OPPOSE the position of cilli if it was south.

show me the proof.

Don't know which map you're talking about, but Cilli isn't east of Styria, period. It's east of Krain.
 

Toio

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Wiking said:
Don't know which map you're talking about, but Cilli isn't east of Styria, period. It's east of Krain.

map on this thread , post 46
 

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Toio, you seem not to understand what Cilli actually was - lands of a noble familly of HRE that was elevated to the rank of princes. They made the city of Cilli their seat and were thus named after it. And Cilli isn't south of Styria but in southern Styria. Cillis had many lands outside Styria as well, in Carianthia, Carniola, Hungary and Croatia, and that is what the map tries to show, inaccurately, by force, because it is too small to show detail. But the main poin is, Cilli didn't have the time to become a 'compact' state, in the sense we understand in our times. So, if you really want a yes/no answer to your question, then yes, the map is wrong. And Cilli most certainly wasn't a slovene state, although it is quite probable that Cillis, like other feudal lords of the area, Habsburgs including, spoke slovenian, as it was the language of their subjects.

That is why I urge you to read more on when and how slovenes came to this lands. What you wrote really pains me, since it could only be considered as italian faschist propaganda.
 

Toio

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again I see no proof on CILLI or internet post for me to advance my knowledge.
 

unmerged(12990)

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I have a few maps at home, but unfortunately my camera is broken, so I can't take any photos of them...

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celje :

"Celje (German Cilli, Hungarian Cille) (46.24° North, 15.27° East (WG), 241 m, mean height above sea level (MSL) 304 m) is the third largest city in Slovenia. It is a regional center of the Southwestern Lower Styria (Jugozahodna Spodnja Štajerska) and the administrative seat of the municipality of the same name. It is located under the Upper Celje Castle (407 m) at the confluence of the rivers Savinja (also in some older English texts Sann), Ložnica and Voglajna (with its tributary Hudinja) in the lowest part of the Savinja valley."

And then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(province)

"Styria (Štajerska in Slovenian) is an informal province (pokrajina) in northeast Slovenia, known for its white wine.

Major centres include Maribor, Celje and Ptuj. It is also called Lower Styria, or Spodnja Štajerska (German Untersteiermark), as opposed to Upper Styria, a term applied to the federal state of Austria by Slovenians. (In Austria, the term Upper Styria (Obersteiermark) is applied only the northern parts of that state.) This reflects the division of Styria in 1918, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria :

"The southern parts of the Duchy of Styria, which since 1918 are part of Slovenia, were (and sometimes colloquially still are) refered to as Untersteiermark ("Lower Styria")."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(duchy) :

"Following World War I, Styria was divided in the Treaty of Saint Germain. Lower Styria with the cities of Celje and Maribor became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, while the rest remained with Austria as the State of Styria. Other than in Carinthia, no fighting resulted from this, in spite of minority populations on both sides (the larger cities of Lower Styria were largely German-speaking)."


Will this do?
 
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Twoflower said:
Some questions and ideas that I need answers/comments to before continuing to script:
  • Hapsburg regencies: As it seems, we have with the implementation of Svantevid's sequence for Friedrich IV's regency in Styria, readapted an approach of representing the regencies withing the Hapsburg family by vassalisations that was originally used but given up back when the Hapsburg split was implemented in the EEP. I'm inclined to agree that the regencies are in fact classical examples of vassalisations - Friedrich IV, count of Tyrol, as regent of Styria and Friedrich V, duke of Styria, as regent of Austria and Tyrol did not only direct the policies of these territories in their interest (and often against the interest of the minor ruler), but also were entitled to take the income from those territories for themselves. Thus imo it would be best to represent the regency of Friedrich V in Tyrol from 1439 to 1446 and in Austria from 1439 to 1453 as vassalages as well. I know a vassalisation is harsh on these countries, but Tyrol and Austria were unable to conduct an independent policy and had their income going to Friedrich's coffers during these periods and therefore should not be in an outstanding shape then
  • Albrecht VI: Albrecht VI the Squanderer, younger brother of Friedrich V, was a constant pain in the other's back and became his greatest enemy (except Mathias Corvinus perhaps). Having received some holdings in Styria, Carinthia and Carniola in 1437, he constantly demanded more concessions from Friedrich V in order to gain power and especially the money he needed to cover his debts. When Austria and Tyrol were in need of a regent in 1439, he tried to be chosen over Friedrich - against Hapsburg family law -, but eventually failed after having conducted more or less open civil war in Austria against Friedrich and allying with Friedrich's opponents. Friedrich managed to rid himself of Albrecht for a while by a treaty signed with Sigmund of Tyrol and Albrecht in 1446, according to which Sigmund ceded the Vorlande to Albrecht in exchange for finally being released from the tutelage of Friedrich and being allowed to rule Tyrol independently, and Albrecht agreed to give up his possessions in Styria.
    In the following years, Albrecht was busy governing the Vorlande - where he was in fact quite a successful ruler and e.g. founded the university of Freiburg - and (unsuccessfully) fighting the Swiss. He reassumed his position of Friedrich's rival in Austria however when Ladislaus Postumus died in 1457. Friedrich had to agree to letting Albrecht have Upper Austria. Albrecht was keen on getting all of Austria, though, and after a very intense war with Friedrich where he decisively defeated him got it in 1462. Only his premature death in 1463 (quite probably poisoned by agents of his brother) prevented him from entirely breaking his brother's power and allowed the latter to unify all of Austria with Styria.
    There are three things that I would like to do here:
    1. Allow Tyrol and Austria to choose between Friedrich and Albrecht as regents in 1439. Chosing Albrecht avoids a vassalisation to Styria, but results in worse DPs and a worse monarch during the regency
    2. Have Tyrol release Baden by an event in 1446. It should be able to avoid this by a B choice where it asks the Swiss for protection against the Styrian brothers (there were in fact some negotiations between the Tyrolean estates and Swiss emissaries before Sigmund was talked into accepting the treaty). This Baden - ruled by Albrecht VI - would be involved in the events for the succession of Ladislaus. Baden would be returned to Tyrol upon Albrecht's death in 1463.
    3. Redesign the events for the succession of Ladislaus, or in fact create events that somewhat ressemble history (right now, Austria just inherits Styria in 1463). As for results, in 1457 (at least with the historical choices) Upper Austria (on the vanilla map the Salzburg province) should go to Albrecht - i.e. to Baden if it exists, otherwise to an independent Austria reduced to that province and ruled by Albrecht, and Lower Austria (currently the Austria province) to Friedrich. In 1462, Lower Austria should pass to Albrecht, and in 1463, the territories of Albrecht and Friedrich should be unified. The question is how all this should be handled event-wise. My proposal would be the following

    Event 1, 1457, for Austria
    Trigger: Baden and Styria exist, Austria is AI
    Salzburg is ceded to Baden, an event that has Styria inherit Austria and gives it cores on Austria and Salzburg is triggered, Baden gets an event that tells it what happened and gives it cores on Austria and Salzburg

    Event 2, 1457, for Austria
    Trigger: Baden and Styria exist, Austria is human
    choice A: Support Friedrich
    Salzburg is ceded to Baden, Baden gets an event that tells it what happened and gives it cores on Austria and Salzburg, Austria inherits Styria, gets slavonic culture and moves its capital to Styria (Graz, Friedrich's residence)
    choice B: Support Albrecht
    Austria is ceded to Styria, Austria inherits Baden

    Event 3, 1457, for Austria
    Trigger: Baden doesn't exist, Styria exists
    Austria is ceded to Styria, Styria gets cores on Austria and Salzburg

    Event 4, 1457, for Austria
    Trigger: Styria doesn't exist, Baden exists
    Salzburg is ceded to Baden, Austria gets slavonic culture

    Event 5, 1457, for Austria:
    Trigger: neither Styria nor Baden exists
    Austria just gets a stabhit, some revoltrisk that lasts until 1463 and slavonic culture

    Event 6, 1463, for Styria
    Trigger: event 1 or 3 has happened, Austria or Baden still exist
    Styria inherits Baden and Austria and turns into Austria

    Event 7, 1463, for Austria
    Trigger: either event 2 has happened and Austria chose option A or event 4 has happened; Baden still exists
    Austria inherits Baden

    Event 8, 1463, for Austria
    Trigger: event 2 has happened, Austria chose option B, Styria still exists
    Austria inherits Styria, gets slavonic culture and moves its capital to Styria

    By setting up the sequence that way, we'd allow a player to start as Austria or Styria - with all the different strategic possibilites this implies in the first decades of the game - and end up as Friedrich V's Austria in 1463. The drawback of this is of course the need for a tag switch, but since the Albertine Hapsburg branch that ruled Austria in 1419 in fact died out and the Styrian branch was the one that ended up in possession of everything, Styria definitely deserves to be the country that survives unless Austria is human-controlled.
    Another question regarding the sequence is of course whether and how we want to represent the war between Albrecht and Friedrich. We could encourage such a conflict with events and AI settings, do nothing about it being aware that it still might happen sometimes due to the cores they get on each other or actively discourage it. The last option would prevent them from entirely destroying each other and becoming easy prey for their neighbours; I'd propose testing the sequence a bit to see if that would be required, or if we can have the historical conflict and they will in most games (due to the importance of Austria, I'd want a percentage above at least 80) end up unified and become a solid power nonetheless.
  • Sigmund's abdication: Similarly as with the inheritances in 1457 and 1463, we might also want to rethink the unification of Tyrol with Austria in 1493. After Sigmund of Tyro hadl abdicated in favour of Maximilian in 1490, Maximilian ruled solely Tyrol for three years, before inheriting Austria, Styria and the imperial dignity from his father in 1493. Therefore it would imo be best and most accurate to in 1490 just make Maximilian the monarch of Tyrol and give Tyrol perfect relations to Styria and then in 1493 normally have Austria inherit Tyrol, but let a human Tyrol inherit Austria. Thereby, we'd allow for beginning a game as "Austria" as any of the three Hapsburg branches in 1419 without any drawbacks.

Need any help scripting this?
 

Toio

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Wiking said:
I have a few maps at home, but unfortunately my camera is broken, so I can't take any photos of them...

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celje :

"Celje (German Cilli, Hungarian Cille) (46.24° North, 15.27° East (WG), 241 m, mean height above sea level (MSL) 304 m) is the third largest city in Slovenia. It is a regional center of the Southwestern Lower Styria (Jugozahodna Spodnja Štajerska) and the administrative seat of the municipality of the same name. It is located under the Upper Celje Castle (407 m) at the confluence of the rivers Savinja (also in some older English texts Sann), Ložnica and Voglajna (with its tributary Hudinja) in the lowest part of the Savinja valley."

And then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(province)

"Styria (Štajerska in Slovenian) is an informal province (pokrajina) in northeast Slovenia, known for its white wine.

Major centres include Maribor, Celje and Ptuj. It is also called Lower Styria, or Spodnja Štajerska (German Untersteiermark), as opposed to Upper Styria, a term applied to the federal state of Austria by Slovenians. (In Austria, the term Upper Styria (Obersteiermark) is applied only the northern parts of that state.) This reflects the division of Styria in 1918, when Austria-Hungary was dissolved."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria :

"The southern parts of the Duchy of Styria, which since 1918 are part of Slovenia, were (and sometimes colloquially still are) refered to as Untersteiermark ("Lower Styria")."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(duchy) :

"Following World War I, Styria was divided in the Treaty of Saint Germain. Lower Styria with the cities of Celje and Maribor became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, while the rest remained with Austria as the State of Styria. Other than in Carinthia, no fighting resulted from this, in spite of minority populations on both sides (the larger cities of Lower Styria were largely German-speaking)."


Will this do?


2 of your sites do not work,

I am referring only to celli as I know where stryia is
 

unmerged(12990)

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Toio: post edited, all links should work now

And how can you say you know where Styria is, and at the same time say Cilli is not a part of it? :confused:
 

Svantevid

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To get back to original topic, what would choosing Albrecht over Friedrich bring to Tyrol or Austria? The following come to mind:

- worsening of relations with Styria
- get cores on Steiermark and Krain (for Tyrol, Austria already has them)
- gain CB against Styria, or even start a war, especially if no_concessions was chosen in the Styrian Treaty with Albrecht event.
- is there a way to break the alliance between Styria and Tyrol that might still remain from the start of scenario?
- offensive or quality +1, to indicate better military abilities of Albrecht