ROI Buildings

[SolSys]

Posted initial data for manufactories - didn't want to delay it much more.
Will refine and rework into something tangible later.


Edit: Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

 

[Tavior]

This is kind of disappointing on RoI for manufactories across the board. Not too surprising to be honest considering their steep initial upfront cost.

You will be lucky to get less than 100 years on a 20 production RoI for manufactories compare to base 5 tax 50 year for temple.

I don't think coming fairly late in game help that much since you need to make them worth it.

I am wondering how often you guy build lot of manufactories if at all?

 

[Republic of Mercury]

This is kind of disappointing on RoI for manufactories across the board. Not too surprising to be honest considering their steep initial upfront cost.

You will be lucky to get less than 100 years on a 20 production RoI for manufactories compare to base 5 tax 50 year for temple.

I don't think coming fairly late in game help that much since you need to make them worth it.

I am wondering how often you guy build lot of manufactories if at all?

I build tonnes of manufactories when I can afford to. The numbers here don't take into account production efficiency from technology, or trade efficiency, and the 25% node control is probably an underestimate too.

 

[SolSys]

This is kind of disappointing on RoI for manufactories across the board. Not too surprising to be honest considering their steep initial upfront cost.

You will be lucky to get less than 100 years on a 20 production RoI for manufactories compare to base 5 tax 50 year for temple.

Manufactories give a flat bonus and are not influenced by development, but the combined production building are influenced by those.
You've to take into account that by the time the first manufactories are available you'll most likely have +15% production efficiency and +10% trade efficiency just from tech. If you're AoT on tech you'll get an additional +20% to those as well. Even alone this can lower their ROI to 150 years [down from 200].

I build tonnes of manufactories when I can afford to. The numbers here don't take into account production efficiency from technology, or trade efficiency, and the 25% node control is probably an underestimate too.

This is true - since the building arrive at different tech levels it would've made the comparison problematic without a baseline [the 25% for trade node was a "safe-bet"].

I'll upload the spreadsheet when I'm done and there you can change those values on the fly to get a more relevant information for your situation at the time.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

I build tonnes of manufactories when I can afford to. The numbers here don't take into account production efficiency from technology, or trade efficiency, and the 25% node control is probably an underestimate too.

So true. Looking at the eu4wiki, at Admin Tech 9 (for example) we get +15%, at ADM tech 13, it's +20%, and at Admin Tech 16, it's +25%, or half a workshop.

Manufactories come online at tech 11 or 14, so the absolute lowest Production efficiency bonus is the +15% at ADM tech 9. The lowest production efficiency bonus the Plantation or Trade Company can get is +20% from ADM tech 13.

edit -
http://www.eu4wiki.com/Production#Production_efficiency

This does not consider trade efficiency for the trade part though...

edit2 - Fixed the numbers. I misread the wiki.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

So true. Looking at the eu4wiki, if I'm reading this right, at Admin Tech 13 (for example) we get +50% (as if a workshop already exists in the province), at Admin Tech 21, it's +105% (better than a counting house).

Manufactories come online at tech 11 or 14, so the absolute lowest Production efficiency bonus is the cumulative +30% at ADM tech 9. The lowest production efficiency bonus the Plantation or Trade Company can get is the +50%.

edit -
http://www.eu4wiki.com/Production#Production_efficiency

This does not consider trade efficiency for the trade part though...

Production efficiency from tech isn't cumulative; it's just +20% at tech 13. +275% PE at tech 32 would be fun and also ludicrous.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Production efficiency from tech isn't cumulative; it's just +20% at tech 13. +275% PE at tech 32 would be fun and also ludicrous.

Thanks. Reading the wiki, it wasn't looking quite right to me, those numbers looked pretty high from my experience. I'll fix my post.

...and fixed.

 

[Tavior]

I build tonnes of manufactories when I can afford to. The numbers here don't take into account production efficiency from technology, or trade efficiency, and the 25% node control is probably an underestimate too.

You are forgetting that we will have destruction that make building border manufacturer bad (same case for temples really).

I decide to check what the RoI is like at 40% production efficiency (france revolutionary bookmark as switzerland). Switzerland has a few ideas that make RoI MUCH better from NI and economy + trade + plutocratic (10% trade good produced).

Switzerland only has 7 province and 2 trade good to look at. Nothing is built in Switzerland except for a fort level 8 and a fort level 2 (really? not even a single temple anywhere).

5 production of Iron at 4.5 value = .63 more income per monthly at capital as the best value and rest are worse because of estate/wool with 1.62 good value.

I check the math it comes to 56 year to break even at 40% production efficiency plus 4 year to build it. Sometime you just don't have the necessary room to have both workshop/counting house + manufactories due to low building slot.

After building a counting house while keeping everything else roughly the same. Building a manufacturer raise monthly income to 1.01 with 170% production efficiency (100% from counting house + 70%). The RoI is 35 year + 4 year to build it.

If you push production efficiency higher it might be possible to stop care about how high your production base is. But I pick the country with the worst trade control on purpose to illustion that how much money you get from production side of manufacturer is only good if the trade good is good. Otherwise it is not even worthwhile for grain unless it is above 15 production.

The tricky factor here is trade good value. Some of them actually do fall over time which make RoI worse but some will be worthwhile to build in time to reap trade good increase value events.

If you have 50 province all with grain goods it actually hurt you to not build manufacturer in them in time to start institution but otherwise why build? When you have that iron/copper somewhere with better RoI instead?

It get more complex if you don't have enough provinces to support all 3 estate where you want them. I usually put nobility/clergy in provinces with terrible trade good and put burgher on high value trade good. Even then you might end up with a nobility on a wine province because you have nowhere else for nobility which hurt your RoI value due to LA penalty to production value. This is an edge problem for small countries but it is still worthwhile considering.

 

[Tavior]

Manufactories give a flat bonus and are not influenced by development, but the combined production building are influenced by those.
You've to take into account that by the time the first manufactories are available you'll most likely have +15% production efficiency and +10% trade efficiency just from tech. If you're AoT on tech you'll get an additional +20% to those as well. Even alone this can lower their ROI to 150 years [down from 200].

If that is indeed true then why 5 production give more income per month than say 4 production for different province with manufacturer?

 

[SolSys]

If that is indeed true then why 5 production give more income per month than say 4 production for different province with manufacturer?

Manufactories give a flat bonus to trade goods [+1]. That is akin to 5 base production.
To use your example, that would make them 5+[5] production and 4+[5] production. The manufactory part stays the same throughout. The income difference comes from the different base production which is present regardless of the manufactory.

Edit: this is the reason I showed them in a table not including base production.

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Manufactories give a flat bonus to trade goods [+1]. That is akin to 5 base production.
To use your example, that would make them 5+[5] production and 4+[5] production. The manufactory part stays the same throughout. The income difference comes from the different base production which is present regardless of the manufactory.

Edit: this is the reason I showed them in a table not including base production.

Might it also be worth mentioning, however briefly, that other bonuses to goods produced (notably the +20% from the trade/quantity policy) affect both manufactories and workshops?

 

[Tavior]

Might it also be worth mentioning, however briefly, that other bonuses to goods produced (notably the +20% from the trade/quantity policy) affect both manufactories and workshops?

Some certain type government gives bonus to good produce as well.

Hmm now I have an "interesting" question what is the max possible production efficiency possible? and how?

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Some certain type government gives bonus to good produce as well.

Only merchant republics.

Hmm now I have an "interesting" question what is the max possible production efficiency possible? and how?

50% from tech + 20% from ahead of time, +10% from being a constitutional republic, +10% from a natural scientist advisor, 5% from a parliament reform, +100% from a counting house and +10% from having a seat in parliament, +20% from roman ideas and 20% from the aristocratic and innovative policy, +10% from economic ideas and +30% from 3 more policies, for 285%, possibly more with events.

 

[Indigo Blue]

With enough assumptions everything is trivial. Congratulations...

True. But writing out the formula can be tedious. But lets say at 0% trade node control it takes X years and at 100% it takes x/2 years.

Then the overall formula assuming no trade steering bonus is:

X years - (control percentage)*X/2

 

[Indigo Blue]

Might it also be worth mentioning, however briefly, that other bonuses to goods produced (notably the +20% from the trade/quantity policy) affect both manufactories and workshops?

Good produced modifier affects both production income and trade income.

So GPM impacts manufactories because its +1 trade good + % GPM. Workshops get increased income because of increased production

Trade income is impacted because the number of goods that are generated is increased - which means the total trade value has increased. Basically GPM is a multiplier to production and trade.

This also does not take into consideration the GPM bonuses received when becoming production leader.

 

[Tavior]

Only merchant republics.

Admin monarchy/republic both has production efficiency.

Merchant's Republic bonus to good produce is not limited to that Government only as other govt can benefit from a merchant republic presence in that trade node.

Constitution Republic is even better since it has both production efficiency and trade efficiency which boost both component of manufacturer's income.

Peasants Republic bonus is similar to admin republic (production-wise that is).

50% from tech + 20% from ahead of time, +10% from being a constitutional republic, +10% from a natural scientist advisor, 5% from a parliament reform, +100% from a counting house and +10% from having a seat in parliament, +20% from roman ideas and 20% from the aristocratic and innovative policy, +10% from economic ideas and +30% from 3 more policies, for 285%, possibly more with events.

Look like you missed a 10% from plutocratic idea group itself.

So far you need a lot of idea groups to cover all 10% production efficiency policies. Plutocratic itself + Aristocratic/innovative policy + naval/economical policy + trade/economical policy + humanist/aristocratic policy. So that is total seven distinct idea groups!

But the policies put together is bit heavy on admin (3 admin + 1 dip MP monthly cost). You also have a weird mix of 3 admin + 1 dip + 3 military (mostly useless naval/plutocratic/aristocratic) idea group.

You would be also skidding very close to the 50% minimum group type.

But that does leave you with one free dip idea group to wiggle perhaps espionage just for the -.1 corruption while you are at it heheh.

Edit: GPM? Great Power something?

 

[Republic of Mercury]

Admin monarchy/republic both has production efficiency.

Merchant's Republic bonus to good produce is not limited to that Government only as other govt can benefit from a merchant republic presence in that trade node.

Constitution Republic is even better since it has both production efficiency and trade efficiency which boost both component of manufacturer's income.

Peasants Republic bonus is similar to admin republic (production-wise that is).



Look like you missed a 10% from plutocratic idea group itself.

So far you need a lot of idea groups to cover all 10% production efficiency policies. Plutocratic itself + Aristocratic/innovative policy + naval/economical policy + trade/economical policy + humanist/aristocratic policy. So that is total seven distinct idea groups!

But the policies put together is bit heavy on admin (3 admin + 1 dip MP monthly cost). You also have a weird mix of 3 admin + 1 dip + 3 military (mostly useless naval/plutocratic/aristocratic) idea group.

You would be also skidding very close to the 50% minimum group type.

But that does leave you with one free dip idea group to wiggle perhaps espionage just for the -.1 corruption while you are at it heheh.

Edit: GPM? Great Power something?

You asked for governments that give a bonus to goods produced. Merchant Republic is the only government type with that bonus. Administrative monarchies and the other governments you mentioned do not give a bonus to goods produced, they give a bonus to production efficiency. I didn't miss plutocratic because plutocratic doesn't give production efficiency, it gives goods produced.

You appear to not know the difference between "production efficiency" and "goods produced" (GP modifier, or GPM). They are two different bonuses with different effects.

 

[Indigo Blue]

Since I might become busy with prior obligations I thought I'd post the initial tables/graphs - even if without much explanation.
I'll refine them later, but at least you'll have some numbers to look at and spot mistakes before I'm done.

basic look
Manufactories work in a different way to tax/production buildings. While the other buildings generate income by changing percentile efficiency, a manufactory adds a flat bonus at the base of the chain [trade goods produced] which then can affect both production and trade - and be affected in turn by production/trade efficiency.~~and now I got to go.
Note: in the table below it is assumed the manufactory is the last build [no additional cost]. For combined costs see tables further down.
View attachment 239979
View attachment 239973

Setup
these are for combos of manufactories+production buildings.
View attachment 239974

Trade goods - value 2.0 [trade profit 0.5]
View attachment 239976
View attachment 239970

Trade goods - value 2.5 [trade profit 0.625]
View attachment 239975
View attachment 239969

Trade goods - value 3.0 [trade profit 0.75]
View attachment 239977
View attachment 239971
Trade goods - value 4.0 [trade profit 1.0]
View attachment 239978
View attachment 239972

I think some of what you are doing is a little incorrect. For example, including trade income when evaluating the workshop and counting house. Neither one of those benefit from trade income. On

Admin monarchy/republic both has production efficiency.

Merchant's Republic bonus to good produce is not limited to that Government only as other govt can benefit from a merchant republic presence in that trade node.

Constitution Republic is even better since it has both production efficiency and trade efficiency which boost both component of manufacturer's income.

Peasants Republic bonus is similar to admin republic (production-wise that is).



Look like you missed a 10% from plutocratic idea group itself.

So far you need a lot of idea groups to cover all 10% production efficiency policies. Plutocratic itself + Aristocratic/innovative policy + naval/economical policy + trade/economical policy + humanist/aristocratic policy. So that is total seven distinct idea groups!

But the policies put together is bit heavy on admin (3 admin + 1 dip MP monthly cost). You also have a weird mix of 3 admin + 1 dip + 3 military (mostly useless naval/plutocratic/aristocratic) idea group.

You would be also skidding very close to the 50% minimum group type.

But that does leave you with one free dip idea group to wiggle perhaps espionage just for the -.1 corruption while you are at it heheh.

Edit: GPM? Great Power something?

GPM is goods producer modifier.

 

[Pashahlis]

May I ask how you did this spreadsheet?

 

[Tavior]

You asked for governments that give a bonus to goods produced. Merchant Republic is the only government type with that bonus. Administrative monarchies and the other governments you mentioned do not give a bonus to goods produced, they give a bonus to production efficiency. I didn't miss plutocratic because plutocratic doesn't give production efficiency, it gives goods produced.

You appear to not know the difference between "production efficiency" and "goods produced" (GP modifier, or GPM). They are two different bonuses with different effects.

Perhaps I was little unclear when I said "good produce".

I meant any bonus regardless of GP or GPM to income from manufacturer. Which make the answer Constitution Republic.