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1) Killing children via plot is designed to be easy in vanilla, and we haven't changed it yet, especially as you aren't allowed to kill your own children.

2) We have not looked at 'drunkard blabs' yet.

3) With both issues above, we are planning to take a larger look at plots as a whole. This has been somewhat pushed back with the knowledge that Charlemagne is going to put more of an emphasis on murder plots with removing the Assassinate button, but we can bring that back as a higher priority issue if we don't see more news about it soon.

4) We've been discussing a Centralization slider even prior to Charlemagne, and looking at succession laws and how power ties around the state is something we're going to look at more.

5) We heard someone else complaining about spymasters getting murdered en masse, and we'll take a look into that.
 
1) Killing children via plot is designed to be easy in vanilla, and we haven't changed it yet, especially as you aren't allowed to kill your own children.

2) We have not looked at 'drunkard blabs' yet.

3) With both issues above, we are planning to take a larger look at plots as a whole. This has been somewhat pushed back with the knowledge that Charlemagne is going to put more of an emphasis on murder plots with removing the Assassinate button, but we can bring that back as a higher priority issue if we don't see more news about it soon.

4) We've been discussing a Centralization slider even prior to Charlemagne, and looking at succession laws and how power ties around the state is something we're going to look at more.

5) We heard someone else complaining about spymasters getting murdered en masse, and we'll take a look into that.

Designed to be easy? I don't know about that, it's more that Children lack stats and traits of any kind, making every courtier at best ambivalent of them (and AI choices on plots mean they will join in that case).
It makes managing foreign realm succession incredibly easy, if you're patient and start early. Want the 3rd or 4th son to inherit? No challenge. Same for daughter inheritance, in A-C realms. I just can't really think it's "intended" for even a wrong religion & culture character to be able to easily murder children in a neighboring realm, that's silly.
Further, this is a pretty major stress issue in MP games. Piss off a coreligionist enough to start murdering children, and it gets real ugly really fast. There should be some form of protection for children somewhere in there.

All that said, I understand that Charlemagne is bringing changes to plots, so waiting on changes makes sense.


On the "spymasters keeping dying" issue, I think I actually figured that one out. Most of the time, I have my Spymaster idling on "Scheme" in my capitol to catch extra plots from my court; There's an event chain when a Spymaster catches someone through the job_action from scheme that gives the person caught plotting a chance to kill them, and I think that's what was leading to the mass death of all my spymasters from the angry Norse girls I kept marrying children to. Haven't checked it myself, but if it ignores Intrigue (or scales with Intrigue), that would explain why it took me so many spymasters to actually get a successful catch on plots, AS WELL as why all those deaths did not trigger imprison rights (if event doesn't give it, that is).
 
Definitely designed to be easy. There are multiple extra plots that make killing children easier, and it's very obvious from how they're placed. The idea is that the children are exposed to more servants that are more easily bribeable and able to kill them easily. While the opinion modifiers are a possible concern, and we'll think about it more, we have no plans to change it at the moment. As for the spymaster, we have arrived at the same conclusion, and are looking to mass throttle landless courtier schemes.
 
Definitely designed to be easy. There are multiple extra plots that make killing children easier, and it's very obvious from how they're placed. The idea is that the children are exposed to more servants that are more easily bribeable and able to kill them easily. While the opinion modifiers are a possible concern, and we'll think about it more, we have no plans to change it at the moment. As for the spymaster, we have arrived at the same conclusion, and are looking to mass throttle landless courtier schemes.

Okay, just crawled through the vanilla murder plot events to check that. Learned a lot about murder plot mechanics that I didn't know before, and also I'm almost certain that's not the case.


To start a murder event chain from a plot backer, there are 6 events for only adults (7 if including only adult+ruler event), 3 for only children (age 5-16), 1 for infants only (age 0-5), and 1 each for prisoner or incapable only (age 5+ on both).
Every event has the exact same modifiers for MTTH (one exception: Boating Accident for children lacks MTTH reduction for plot power 100% or greater, making it much less likely to fire. I think that's an unintended omission, see note).
Every event has the same triggers for plot power/stats required (with variation on which stat allows for <100% plot power murders).
MTTH varies by category (all adult plots at 8400 months except Poisoned Wine at 4200, child plots at 3600 months, and infant/prisoner/incapable plots at 1200).

Assuming I'm doing my math right (and that I understand MTTH appropriately; each unique event should each have a chance to fire every tick, meaning the higher MTTH of Adult plots is offset, in a way, by their greater number, right?), in a "control plot" identical across all cases, the chance in total for a murder plot event chain to fire for any plot backer(/plot head if applicable) should be identical for each category: Adult*, Children**, Infants, Prisoners, and Incapable.

With the actual murder events themselves, the trait specific chance reduction to avoid death is again identical in format and value for each event (one exception, again: Falling Accident for Children is missing the "random = 50 + trait" clause that every other event has).


I just don't see how "easy to kill children" is intended, here. It's driven only by low court opinion (lack of traits/stats means almost blanket negative opinion, AI disregards parent opinion) and low intrigue (lack of traits/education, again, although this is likely intended). The events themselves seem to be purpose built to deal with each group equally.


* - This does not include the one Adult event for rulers only; including that an Adult murder event chain is actually significantly more likely to fire in any given month
** - This ignores the Boating Accident omission of MTTH reductions; including that a Child murder event chain is actually significantly less likely to fire in any given month



As for spymasters, I think I've found the issue in specific, event 20290 in job_spymaster. If Scheme job_action catches a plotter, they get a chance to assassinate the spymaster from the event chain (flat 50/50 chance, always public knowledge on success) with the AI very likely to try it if they dislike the spymaster (which explains why it was always wrong religion/culture characters killing my spymasters off, and me knowing it was them). I do not know why this does not flag the killer for imprisonment, though. Guess I should stop using that mission as an "idle" for spymasters in my capitol.
 
Child murders are intentionally easier for the highly plausible reason that it is much easier for a kid to be murdered than a mindful adult. This is implemented via their low intrigue and low diplomacy quite naturally.

Your spymaster doesn't have to be deployed to uncover plots to reveal plots to you. That's just a special-case targeted way of being more likely to reveal a plot that you suspect in a particular location. It will indeed kill off your spymasters quite a bit if folks don't like your spymaster (who ever does?) and your spymaster has high enough intrigue to cause that job_action's event chain to fire frequently.

Would you prefer if an imprisonment reason was given for assassinating your spymaster in the line of duty? That seems like a bit of an exploit, with the assassinate event chain coded as it currently is: you could use this job_action opportunistically to land vassals in prison that are powerful / dislike you simply because they're apt to be plotting about _something_. It rather makes the point of assassinating the spymaster moot; either way, you get to imprison the character (though you may lose a spymaster in the process). Of course, the chances of choosing to assassinate the spymaster could be turned down, but then there's less risk of anything at all while fishing for unrelated reasons to imprison your vassals. Alternatively, the assassinations could continue at the same rate but the killer could simply be unknown to the liege, which honestly is probably what Paradox intended originally.

Still, I'm not necessarily opposed to giving a righteous reason to imprison characters that assassinate your spymaster in an attempt to prevent the spymaster from informing you of their activities, although that does sound a little incoherent after actually saying it. Let me know what you think.
 
Child murders are intentionally easier for the highly plausible reason that it is much easier for a kid to be murdered than a mindful adult. This is implemented via their low intrigue and low diplomacy quite naturally.

Your spymaster doesn't have to be deployed to uncover plots to reveal plots to you. That's just a special-case targeted way of being more likely to reveal a plot that you suspect in a particular location. It will indeed kill off your spymasters quite a bit if folks don't like your spymaster (who ever does?) and your spymaster has high enough intrigue to cause that job_action's event chain to fire frequently.

Would you prefer if an imprisonment reason was given for assassinating your spymaster in the line of duty? That seems like a bit of an exploit, with the assassinate event chain coded as it currently is: you could use this job_action opportunistically to land vassals in prison that are powerful / dislike you simply because they're apt to be plotting about _something_. It rather makes the point of assassinating the spymaster moot; either way, you get to imprison the character (though you may lose a spymaster in the process). Of course, the chances of choosing to assassinate the spymaster could be turned down, but then there's less risk of anything at all while fishing for unrelated reasons to imprison your vassals. Alternatively, the assassinations could continue at the same rate but the killer could simply be unknown to the liege, which honestly is probably what Paradox intended originally.

Still, I'm not necessarily opposed to giving a righteous reason to imprison characters that assassinate your spymaster in an attempt to prevent the spymaster from informing you of their activities, although that does sound a little incoherent after actually saying it. Let me know what you think.

I have no problem with the low intrigue bit; children should be easier to knock off than an adult. I just strongly dislike the low opinion from courtiers children have. As I said before, it's common to see a wrong religion & culture ruler be more well liked than the child by courtiers because of the impact State Diplomacy has. I'm not really lobbying for anything more than something like a "child" trait to raise global relations by a bit. That would make foreign involvement harder for wrong religion/culture, but keep it open to coreligionists and the like (or at least make it so you need to throw some gold around if you're wrong religion, as it stands you frequently don't need to!). Otherwise I guess it's just something I can make a house rule for, if I get an MP game going.

I was idling them on Scheme because I figured it was a harmless boost in plot discovery (to limit court from killing random dynasty members out of boredom). I've been wondering why Pdox left Scheme to even bother with plot discovery. The mechanic was changed to interact with the factions mechanic, and the plot discovery left like an afterthought. Spymasters already discover plots plenty fast, and the only way I'd use an increased local chance is (as you mentioned) when I'm trying to get justification to take a vassal down. I'd remove the plot discovery/assassination mechanic entirely. Scheme already gives strong soft-power against vassals (via faction management), no real need for the plot bonus as well.
 
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I have no problem with the low intrigue bit; children should be easier to knock off than an adult. I just strongly dislike the low opinion from courtiers children have. As I said before, it's common to see a wrong religion & culture ruler be more well liked than the child by courtiers because of the impact State Diplomacy has. I'm not really lobbying for anything more than something like a "child" trait to raise global relations by a bit. That would make foreign involvement harder for wrong religion/culture, but keep it open to coreligionists and the like (or at least make it so you need to throw some gold around if you're wrong religion, as it stands you frequently don't need to!). Otherwise I guess it's just something I can make a house rule for, if I get an MP game going.

Hmm, a 'child' trait. That's a new idea. It could be done efficiently. Is it plausible? Does everyone just like children a little bit more than they otherwise would? Should it give general_opinion +10 or something (maybe +15)? That's about all the extra for which the personal diplomacy difference can hope to account. Also, it doesn't need to be a trait. It could be a hidden modifier that does the same thing; it's obvious that they're a child. I might try this out and stick it in the beta. We can see if it makes enough of a difference.

Otherwise, honestly, with the ability to send your family into hiding coming in Charlemagne as well as EMF's ability to, when we can get around to it, throttle courtier plotting and generally rebalance the plot system, I think that is about all that can plausibly done to make murdering kids as an exploit harder (with the child opinion bonus modifier aforementioned included in the package). Of course, we could instate special rules for MP games that make such things harder... though determined players, especially cooperating, are seriously dangerous any which way.

I was idling them on Scheme because I figured it was a harmless boost in plot discovery (to limit court from killing random dynasty members out of boredom). I've been wondering why Pdox left Scheme to even bother with plot discovery. The mechanic was changed to interact with the factions mechanic, and the plot discovery left like an afterthought. Spymasters already discover plots plenty fast, and the only way I'd use an increased local chance is (as you mentioned) when I'm trying to get justification to take a vassal down. I'd remove the plot discovery/assassination mechanic entirely. Scheme already gives strong soft-power against vassals (via faction management), no real need for the plot bonus as well.

Yeah, I was thinking that Scheme is an overloaded job_action, and the plot discovery chain is really not compatible with its faction strong-arming functions if your spymaster might get killed over some random plot dispute about which you don't care while trying to influence factions.

I'd like to wait and hear others' thoughts about removing the plot discovery / spymaster-assassination event chain entirely, though. It's really quite a stupid, redundant job_action event, and the assassination aspect is an unwelcome/confusing surprise for the player. Also, this probably gets a lot of AI spymasters killed, thus lowering the average AI liege's actual plot discovery chance (kills off their high-stat councillors), since the AI uses that job_action for faction purposes extensively.

Thanks again for the feedback.
 
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I enjoy giving feedback, anytime :D

+10-15 sounds perfect, just what I was thinking. Plausibly, I'd think that there would have been at least some hesitation to murder children (and I don't think the amoral/moral system models that well), and an opinion boost is about the best way I can think to model that. I suspect it will also help ameliorate some of the random courtier plotting; I've seen more AI plotting against children that they stand nothing to gain from killing than any other (illegitimate bastards, ect).

Post Charlemagne, perhaps Build Spy Network could pick up plot mechanics, as it's primary function (at least, the only one I find useful) to boost Assassination chance will be removed. Would want to see what Pdox will be doing with it, first.

EDIT: I noticed a mention on your github issues for ward education improvements. Long term a better system to give Children more traits, earlier on in combination with that small protective global opinion boost would clear up all my complaints with plots. We'll see what new things the Charlemagne improvements bring to the table, though.
 
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I agree. I'm tired of getting kids with only 2 traits initially if I'm REALLY unlucky when educating my heir. Of course, by the time any character dies they're absolutely bloated with traits. :p
 
I don't always play 867, but when I do. I have a feeling that with big real levies nerf Norse had become even more ridiculously OP. With Karolings hit by levy nerf two out of two my 867 campaigns saw Sudreyar conquering most of Germany.
 
I don't always play 867, but when I do. I have a feeling that with big real levies nerf Norse had become even more ridiculously OP. With Karolings hit by levy nerf two out of two my 867 campaigns saw Sudreyar conquering most of Germany.

Most of Germany? Like, down to Bavaria/Schwyz?

And they're somehow fighting off all the Crusades?
 
Down to Bavaria. Crusades weren't called yet, though.
That seems really odd... they must not have even had Köln then, if no Crusades were called/unlocked (if they were unlocked, then at least every single defensive county conquest war would be met by a bunch of super-buff Catholic holy orders, hired for free since it's a defensive religious war). Did the AI somehow reform or was this all pagan county conquests?

Sounds like some very bad luck for the Karlings. None of my 867 observes have featured this behavior.
 
Braunschweig is also a valid crusade activation target. Learned that the hard way in my latest game, thought for sure it was just Köln looking at the Holy Sites. Turns out, both are now...
 
That seems really odd... they must not have even had Köln then, if no Crusades were called/unlocked (if they were unlocked, then at least every single defensive county conquest war would be met by a bunch of super-buff Catholic holy orders, hired for free since it's a defensive religious war). Did the AI somehow reform or was this all pagan county conquests?

Sounds like some very bad luck for the Karlings. None of my 867 observes have featured this behavior.
Hahahaha. I've seen crazier just saying. :p

Sometimes the AI just keeps winning those 50/50 flips and then suddenly Christianity disappears completely from the map and Norse is like everywhere!?
 
Any actual gameplay screenshots for the curious (similar to the only one so far posted in this thread about imoerial desintegration)?
 
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Looked into the building system a bit more, found some more things I thought were noteworthy. Posting here, as opposed to the PB thread, because you mentioned Think0028 was recently doing work on this.


My previously mentioned Baltic game brought this to my attention. Maintenance cost of cultural building levies varies by a pretty wide margin. Most cultural buildings subtract 120 in maintenance (30 each from non-Cultural, non-Heavy Cavalry/Special units) from your levy's upkeep. The amount of maintenance they add, however, is not as standard; Baltic cultural buildings, being a pure Light Infantry cultural building at this time, adds from 180 at lowest tier to 480 at highest tier. A Baltic player will quickly run into problems funding levies, and as real maintenance costs will also be adjusted by levy multipliers (see: my 30k+ personal levies by 1000 C.E. post in PB thread, 60 gold/month total) that can quickly become backbreaking/impossible to fund even in short bursts.

On the opposite side of the coin, the Latin/German cultural building gets both more subtracted from non-cultural units (pure Heavy Cavalry building, so -150 total as no possible unit type is excluded from reduction) and only adds half the cost compared to Baltics buildings, from +90-240. Pretty substantial economic advantage, overall.



Tech unlocks for Castle Buildings features a couple odd bugs. The first relates to Cultural Buildings vs. Barracks in relation to tech; from TECH_CASTLE_CONSTRUCTION 3 through 5, you can build one tier higher Cultural Buildings than Barracks. This leads to an odd situation when both are at max upgrade in non-Pikemen culture areas: the reductions from the base values by Cultural Buildings actually outstrips Barracks, rendering them a non-existent unit-type for levies in that case (and also screwing with the intended maintenance cost reduction, I'd assume).


Additionally, there's a minor typo with Barracks' tech unlocks; both Castle Construction 6 and 8 unlock Barracks_6, while Barracks_5 gets no mention (tech 6 should unlock ca_barracks_5).


One last thing on troops, only slightly related: I'd lobby for reducing RETINUE_FROM_REALMSIZE back to PB base values due to an MP concern. In player cooperative realms (particularly an empire) where the top title is passed regularly, all players will eventually have the top title's level of Retinues, so realm size bonuses are problematic. I don't think the extra bonus is needed, even with dynlevy, and a true (long term) top title holder will theoretically have a tech advantage from title (faster Military Organization jumps). That title passing mechanic was a huge part of what destabilized the Vanilla MP game I played in (Vanilla retinues are crazy, though). The amount of retinues you can get from buildings alone is already quite high, since players will push Military Organization with extreme priority (at Military Org VI by 1100 in my test game, as an example).


I mentioned pagan raiding being a bit absurd in the PB thread, as well, and having played a further am still really struck by the ability to abuse it. While normal raiding isn't too problematic, looting (finishing a siege while raiding) is. I'd recommend significantly reducing the economic benefit of burning holdings to the ground (not to mention the event bonuses from finishing the sieges, be it viking/old gods events or capturing title holders/families to ransom back just adding to that). It's already an extremely effective means of low-scale warfare/pressure, so I don't think it needs to be a method of farming gold as well.

Given that holdings lose the "looted" modifier in 3 years time, you don't need a large number of vulnerable holdings to farm gold efficiently via siege. As the payout only takes into account the income level of the holding + number of buildings, as soon as a holding loses the modifier it's ready to be cashed in again, letting you make a small circuit of counties and reap the large payout consistently (only downside is slow destruction of income generating buildings, but that's negligible compared to gold received from this, as a single county will net you at least 100 gold in most cases, if not much more). As it stands, it completely overshadows non-siege raiding, excluding only situations where you're trying to annoy a larger power or the extreme early game if you pick a tiny realm.

Or, alternatively, if you know a way to make my vassals keep caring about their troops while I use them to raid that could also help. I suspect that's not mod-able though.

EDIT: Nevermind that bit about levy maintenance, I misread maintenance on Knights. Still some variation, but not nearly as much as I thought.
 
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Any actual gameplay screenshots for the curious (similar to the only one so far posted in this thread about imoerial desintegration)?

We'll post more screenshots as features come up.

Sqwerlpunk: thank you for your notes! I've been thinking about raiding too, and thanks for finding those bugs. We'll get them fixed. As for retinues, we're still thinking on the best thing to do.
 
We'll post more screenshots as features come up.

Sqwerlpunk: thank you for your notes! I've been thinking about raiding too, and thanks for finding those bugs. We'll get them fixed. As for retinues, we're still thinking on the best thing to do.

Some more minor bugs to share from the Cultural Building file, for the buildings that don't follow the pattern.

ca_culture_ethiopian_5 has +8 Archers instead of +80, and has different combat bonus type from other ca_culture_ethiopian.
ca_culture_group_arabic 1,3,4,5 all add Light Cav instead of Camel Cav
ca_culture_group_south_slavic_5 has +70 knights, short 10 cost pattern
ca_culture_russian 2-5 have ca_culture_russian_0 scale bonuses despite increasing costs, and ca_culture_russian_3 has build time one tier too high

HERE'S a download link for the fixed file, assuming I didn't misinterpret any of the obvious patterns.

I have way too much time on my hands.