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Marginal Theory of Value

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DanielPrates said:
I think this is very right. I am no fan of interventionist economic models but it we go ahead and retain Thomas Sowell to be head game design director, we might end up with an excessively complex game. Edit: by that I mean, we can design one AI organism, viz, "the economy", but in real life countless people think for themselves so a in-game mechanic that would translate into that would see every pop having its own adaptive AI to decide what they want in any given moment. The liberty to do it (or lack of it) would be at the core of the different game mechanjcs. I guess that is impossible from a programming point of view, the main reason whynI think the OP may be right but that is unfeasible for a game like this. So we are stuck with a collective group of economic agents being directed by one "knows-whats-best" entity: in the game it is the AI, thats why game designers go towards marxism when developing economic mechanics. The sad thing is, in real life that same dirigist entity translate into guys in uniform, in varied lenghts of moustache, who shoot and imprison ideological enemies of the state to acheive their own vision of a "perfect world".

Huh. Leave it to a game to be the only place where marxism actually works!
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you can generalize how a group of people "thinks" without having an AI for every pop in that group, like you don't need to simulate every atom of an Iron bar to simulate it's properties, and that isn't by any means a left wing x right wing thing
 
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viola said:
No, there is obviously a frightening amount of people like you, especially in North America for some reason.
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Your problem, I live some 15.000 kms away (nice of your "humanist" demeanor to prejuduce me as something else tho!). Also, "Frightening" is the kind of word that echoes the basis of most 20th reactive policies that ended with genocide, camps, deportation etc.

Anyway can we agree that this discussion derailed? I mentioned above hitler + honecker as interventionists, some guy says "oh you are comparing them as genocidal"..... which I was not.. I even got a "ok boomer". this became irrational already.
 
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DanielPrates said:
Your problem, I live some 15.000 kms away (nice of your "humanist" demeanor to prejuduce me as something else tho!). Also, "Frightening" is the kind of word that echoes the basis of most 20th reactive policies that ended with genocide, camps, deportation etc.

Anyway can we agree that this discussion derailed? I mentioned above hitler + honecker as interventionists, some guy says "oh you are comparing them as genocidal"..... which I was not.. I even got a "ok boomer". this became irrational already.
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Hitler was not an interventionist, he literally invented privatization.
 
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DanielPrates said:
nice of your "humanist" demeanor to prejuduce me as something else tho!
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I have a humanist demeanor too now?

DanielPrates said:
Also, "Frightening" is the kind of word that echoes the basis of most 20th reactive policies that ended with genocide, camps, deportation etc.
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I can't even.

You're out of your mind man. Watch out for that government out there doing stuff and turning into literal Stalin any moment now.
 
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qer said:
No please no. If we end up introducing mainstream orthodox economics there will be no game: just let the market do it's work and that's it. Plus that the societal part of this type of economics is non-existant, which is in itself an important part of the game.
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If you want to create a real-world simulator, you have to have real-life phenomena
 
"neo liberal this" and "neo liberal that"
"neo liberal" is a term used only in echo chambers. just because I dont want labor theory of value to be victoria's economy, doesnt mean i support western oligarchies, or am a "neo liberal"
 
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Belph said:
Hitler was not an interventionist, he literally invented privatization.
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"Hitler invented privatization" is a statement that is going to get you with your pants down. Rephrase it to "Nazi Germany carried out one of the most ambitious, if not the most ambitious privatization plan before them in their era" and you are much better protected against retorts.
 
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Azkaban said:
"Hitler invented privatization" is a statement that is going to get you with your pants down. Rephrase it to "Nazi Germany carried out one of the most ambitious, if not the most ambitious privatization plan before them in their era" and you are much better protected against retorts.
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I suppose "invented" is the wrong word yeah, but as far as I can tell his policies were the first where the term was applied by contemporary sources.
 
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DanielPrates said:
Yes, foe god's sake.

I hope the devs are reading this and considering to just avoid this altogether.
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Unfortunately it isn't really a topic that can be avoided. Economics are at the heart of Victoria, just as war is the heart of Hearts of Iron or Dynasties are the heart of Crusader Kings, and so the logic the economic simulation runs on is really important.
 
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Kewlkhat said:
"neo liberal this" and "neo liberal that"
"neo liberal" is a term used only in echo chambers.
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This is a very interesting thing to say after that we had a whole deranged discussion about throwing comparisons to the Soviet Union over the most harmless of things. I guess that sort of echo chamber is more to your liking.
 
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Kewlkhat said:
dang, reading through this thread, im surprised at the amount of actual marxists that exist on this forums. I didn't think people still held onto discredited economic theory from two centuries ago.

to the Marxists: No, the game doesn't have to stroke Marxism's ego. It can represent other theories of value.
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The proponents of the less discredited theory (that also is from two centuries ago) haven't done much besides protest their shock and outrage. Which, fair enough, is true to form.
Azkaban said:
And finally, to apply all of this to the matter at hand: is LTV a good tool to simulate economics in a game such as Victoria? It is a good part of the equation as it provides an initial approximation to price at a very low performance cost. You can complete the equation later with pulls and bids of the different actors to calculate the variations provoked by scarcity and negotiation power (or supply or demand) - not sure if Paradox will use exactly bids as that may require more performance than strictly required and they may have a different method.
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/Thread.
 
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Well, we got about two and a half pages of actual, substantive economic discussion before it broke down into bitter personal attacks. That's actually not bad by internet standards.
 
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Hey people! Just chill! This is about a game.

Relax.

Drink water.

Love each others.

Marginalism is dumb.

Sleep well.
 
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Kewlkhat said:
hitler privatized a bunch of industries, but he also tightened the state's control over businesses.
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To a degree. They were gearing up for war, after all, and rationing was used heavily. But firms in Nazi Germany maintained autonomous management, made their own investment decisions, and could turn down government contracts even if they were militarily important if they didn’t think they’d make a profit.

 
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