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Nah, just ignorant stubborn rich privileged neoliberals.



No one is saying this. Living standards rising outside of the western world is a magnificent thing. But this shouldn't come to the expense of non-rich westerners especially when their poverty isn't being caused by people in developing countries bettering their lot but by their elites hoarding their wealth and moving capital where they can pay workers less.
People are bettering their lot. The discrepancy in wages between the West and the devloping world is gradually shrinking. That is entirely because Corporations are moving to make more profits.. The increase of wages in Asia is fundamentally tied to the increase in inequality in the West. Where do you think all those good jobs are going?
 
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I fully believe the labor movement provided a high standard of living in 70s. If you look at the graph, millions in Asia have been lifted out of poverty by globalization. I don't see how you can say these people in Asia are being taken advantage of. They are clearly being taken out of absolute poverty. Saying otherwise is just gaslighting to preserve white privilege..
I don't deny that global standards of living have risen, as capitalism is known to do in previously semi-feudal agrarian societies. However I know that several economists have criticized the stats you're using. I wonder how the stats would look if they measured purchasing power parity rather than the dollar.

Chinses workers deserve just the same as workers in any other country. The fact they're better off now than in the peasant days doesn't mean they aren't still being exploited. The Congolese cobolt miners are also better off doing that than they'd be starving somewhere I'm sure. They're still little more than slaves.
 
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Countries with social systems would have to do worse in principle and the introduction of the minimum wage would again cost massive jobs. Which, strangely enough, did not happen in relation to Germany, despite predictions from the usual suspects. Oh wonder, the sector was forced to invest in modernization and the higher wages stimulated demand which created new jobs. Somebody has to buy the goods after all.
This argument is really reductive. The minimum wage and social programs aren't the only things affecting an economy and unemployment. There are regulations, taxes, tariffs, corruption, available resources, established industries, trade relations. There are foreign laws, rules, regulations and taxes if you trade abroad. Different industries are going to respond differently to these various factors as well. More advanced, diverse and robust economies are likely going to be affected by a minimum wage increase differently than poorer developing economy reliant on a small handful(if not just one) commodity. So raising the minimum wage, or social benefits isn't going to have an immediate, or obvious knock on effect when so many other forces are pulling on the economy.

It could be argued that not as many jobs were created in Germany do to their minimum wage, or social programs. Which brings us to the Broken Window Fallacy, which I hope doesn't need explaining. You pointed out the economic activity that happened, but had the minimum wage not been increased there could have been a whole other series of economic activity and growth greater than what actually happened and more jobs. Seen versus the Unseen.


We also have to consider the scale of these factors. How much you raise the minimum wage, or increase social benefits is just as important a factor. Here in the US we recently had a jobs report that showed job growth was around 75% lower than expected and most blame it not on a lack of jobs, but a lack of workers because people were choosing to collect unemployment and chill at home. Most employers couldn't raise wages enough. They were not just competing with $300 checks a week, but also 40 hours of free time. A lot of states in response are now cutting back on unemployment benefits.
 
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I fully believe the labor movement provided a high standard of living in 70s. If you look at the graph, millions in Asia have been lifted out of poverty by globalization. I don't see how you can say these people in Asia are being taken advantage of. They are clearly being taken out of absolute poverty. Saying otherwise is just gaslighting to preserve white privilege..
This can only be judged on a case-by-case basis in terms of state policy. If you take out people out of absolute poverty by making yourself a periphery of the West from which cheap labor and natural resources can be extracted and whose market can be flooded with foreign-made cheap commodities that the local businesses cannot compete with, then you've traded your long term development in favor of a few trinkets (most of which will go into the pockets of comprador elites).

Which is not to say that autarchy is the answer, mind you. Unequal exchange is inevitable, but a mix of protectionist measures and a reimbursement of state profits into infrastructure and (state-owned) industry can lead to sustained development and an eventual end to this vicious cycle of foreign exploitation.
 
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I don't deny that global standards of living have risen, as capitalism is known to do in previously semi-feudal agrarian societies. However I know that several economists have criticized the stats you're using. I wonder how the stats would look if they measured purchasing power parity rather than the dollar.

Chinses workers deserve just the same as workers in any other country. The fact they're better off now than in the peasant days doesn't mean they aren't still being exploited. The Congolese cobolt miners are also better off doing that than they'd be starving somewhere I'm sure. They're still little more than slaves.

Good points. However, PPP shows even less difference between Asia and the West. nowadays . I believe China's sort of exploitative state right now is just a middle ground in the path between an agrarian society and welfare state . I think as consiciousness rises, people will demand better conditons naturally. But you can't get to a welfare state without first going through the middle ground.
 
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Yes of course I was being abjectly sarcastic. I wonder if the downvoters there understood that. I am actually surprised how, in the 21st century, neonazism is discarded as the trash it indeed is, but "government knows best" retains so much appeal.
It's almost like nazism is a genocidal ideology at heart while I don't even know what "government knows best" is meant to be about.
 
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It's almost like nazism is a genocidal ideology at heart while I don't even know what "government knows best" is meant to be about.
If you know what nazism is and condemn it, but you are concessive and relativistic about what ceaucescu, hoenecker, lenin etc. were all about, well that says a lot.
 
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I don't deny that global standards of living have risen, as capitalism is known to do in previously semi-feudal agrarian societies. However I know that several economists have criticized the stats you're using. I wonder how the stats would look if they measured purchasing power parity rather than the dollar.

Chinses workers deserve just the same as workers in any other country. The fact they're better off now than in the peasant days doesn't mean they aren't still being exploited. The Congolese cobolt miners are also better off doing that than they'd be starving somewhere I'm sure. They're still little more than slaves.

In regards to nominal vs PPP comparisons, PPP comparisions almost always favor poorer countries (or, rather, favor richer countries less), because non-tradable services (haircuts) depend heavily on labor and are therefore cheaper there.
 
Oh exactly, thanks god for hardcore marxists, they are proven to be behind such a great ammount of peaceful, democratic, plentiful economic progress in the last 100 years or so!
We are having a healthy debate about economics theories here, you are being unnecessarily militant and biased while starting a useless debate comparing socialism, nazism and generic government intervention. If this thread is closed this is your fault.
 
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Oh exactly, thanks god for hardcore marxists, they are proven to be behind such a great ammount of peaceful, democratic, plentiful economic progress in the last 100 years or so!
Someone should give this man a talk about the realities capitalist imperialism, I don't have the patience for that anymore.
 
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Ugh.... allright ok you guys are veering off what I meant. The issue was interventionism vs. non interventionism, and the consequences of giving a governmwnt too much power about what works economically or not. Of course on a genocidal basis, hoenecker specifically, there is no comparing - my point was dirigent governments ending up causing more harm tham good economically. There is a genocidal compairson betwern hitler and lenin tho. Or him and several other marxists.
 
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Good points. However, PPP shows even less difference between Asia and the West. nowadays . I believe China's sort of exploitative state right now is just a middle ground in the path between an agrarian society and welfare state . I think as consiciousness rises, people will demand better conditons naturally. But you can't get to a welfare state without first going through the middle ground.
Well, we can break a little bread on agreeing on this point. How this confirms neoliberal economics however, I don't know. And of course, the Chinese worker toiling away 80/h a week in an American factory isn't in that instance being exploited by the Chinese state but by the American company who moved operations there specifically because they know the Chinese can be thus thaken advantage of.

You might also be the first neo-liberal I have encountered who admits that the decrease in inequality between the developed and the developing countries isn't simply due to the increase in living standards of developing nation workers, but also the decline of the developed nation workers. So, respect for that.
 
Ugh.... allright ok you guys are veering off what I meant. The issue was interventionism vs. non interventionism, and the consequences of giving a governmwnt too much power about what works economically or not. Of course on a genocidal basis, hoenecker specifically, there is no comparing. There is betwern hitler and lenin tho. Or him and several other marxists.
You literally came in the thread with that fan fiction of Austrian economics and acting like a boomer "muh commies infecting the game"
 
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You know hardcore libertarians are having it harder and harder when you see that the only way they can defend their ideas is by pretending that the only alternative to their dystopian version of capitalism is literal stalinism, please ignore any and all European welfare state. You know that when you give the government the power to give you basic access to affordable healthcare that paves the way for despotism. It's much better when people are left unable to afford healthcare and never bother to check their health because it would bankrupt them.
 
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