Leadership Traits - Perfect Commanders

[incognitus]

Somehow I have feeling that this is one of the questions, where there actually is one right answer...

Maybe not one, as there are different types of commanders for different types of armies, but let me start off with the Archer Retinues led by English/Welsh commanders. Which two leadership traits would you give those?

Additional info:
- According to defines.lua any commander can have a maximum of 2 leadership traits.
- Leadershipt traits of player characters can only be chosen from below events:
Event 1:
- Terrain Specialisation (based on battle location; Flat, Rough, Desert, Mountain are mutually exclusive)
- War Elephants (Indian religion group only)
- Winter Specialisation (must be winter atm)
- Light Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Cavalry (LC+HC) (these are mutually exclusive)
Event 2:
- Organizer
- Experimenter
- Holy Warrior (must not be Cynical)
- Unyielding
Event 3:
- Aggressive/Defensive Leader (these are mutually exclusive)
- Inspiring
- Trickster
Event 4:
- Flat/Rough/Mountain/Desert Terrain (mutually exclusive)
- Flanker
- Narrow Flank
- Siege

Edit: Changed "Light Troops" to "Light Infantry" - archers don't get a bonus!

 

[Zohtun]

No. Not really. Depends on your requirements in your run. For example, my choices for an all-rounder would be holy warrior and organiser, because I always play on the frontier and burn the heretic and purge the infidel.

On the other hand, someone playing the middle of Francia, surrounded by fellow Catholics, the choice of holy warrior would be combat suicide. Thus they'd go for something else.

For the archers, probably light troops leader and organiser. Allows you to hunt down your enemy and boost up your retinue's (already stupidly broken) raw power even more.

 

[incognitus]

No. Not really. Depends on your requirements in your run. For example, my choices for an all-rounder would be holy warrior and organiser, because I always play on the frontier and burn the heretic and purge the infidel.

On the other hand, someone playing the middle of Francia, surrounded by fellow Catholics, the choice of holy warrior would be combat suicide. Thus they'd go for something else.

You are right. No one right answer so... but let's keep going regardless Keep in mind though, that the leader of your archer retinue doesn't need to fight in the center flank. So someone with "Organizer" and "Inspiring Leader" might be better off in the center with your archer flank(s) on the outside flanks.

For the archers, probably light troops leader and organiser. Allows you to hunt down your enemy and boost up your retinue's (already stupidly broken) raw power even more.

It turns out (from the 00_traits.txt) that "Light Foot Leader" only applies to Light Infantry, not to Archers (unlike the "Light" Tech modifier).

So, to elaborate further: Let's presume we already have an Organizer/Inspiring Leader in the centre flank and have our archer retinues on the outside flanks. What would you give those two commanders?

 

[Zohtun]

I suppose Flanker with Unyielding Leader for both, to max out the raw power.

 

[Halcyan]

Organizer is easily the most valuable and important trait.

Winter Expert is extremely rare, but it is very very helpful to have one guy (of any martial skill) with this trait.

Siege Expert is also real useful for commanders with high Martial, but usually not those you use in combat.

After that, Unyielding is probably the best overall trait (two positives, no negatives).

If Indian, War Elephant Leader is actually quite good.

After that I would go with Holy Warrior or the Terrain specializations or (if Retinues are all one type, then that Troop Specialization).



Dislikes:

While Inspiring Leader looks good on paper (all positives, no negatives), it is actually not that great. The effects don't really scale with martial ability. It locks you in to the center position. And the Inspiring Defense tactic can actually be a BAD thing if you want a culturally specific tactic (like Massive Longbow Volley or Retreat & Ambush).

Flanker is pretty weak because the flanking bonus is conditional, locks you into the flanks, and is particularly bad for your character since the center yields the best prestige and piety bonuses.

For Trickster, Defensive Leader, Aggressive Leader, and Experimenter, the negatives often balance out the positives. Same with the Troop Specializations, depending on your troop composition. Narrow Flank is too conditional and can also work against you.

 

[Michael B]

One of my favorite, if not favorite of all, commanders had high martial.. Siege leader and organizer for traits. Those campaigns while I had him went so much easier and faster...

 

[Tizazef]

Organizer is almost always far and away the best.
Narrow Flank is good on defense but counterproductive on offense.
Flanker is more potent with archers - light cavalry but you need to be on the flank.
Unyielding and Aggressive / Trickster are easily the best generals after Organizer; Experimenter is unpredictable and not reliable enough for me to have the guy lead a 30k stack.
Terrain is conditional. Forest / Mountain are the most useful IMO due to slightly balancing the offensive penalties you get when attacking.
The others are pretty bad, especially 'x unit' unless your actual culture / retinue has a bonus - archer bonus is killer with English.

 

[Narvait]

I use Organizers as center leaders for reserve troops (if I have to split armies due to attrition limits) as they can quickly bring in reinforcement to the battles.

My own experience is pretty much limited to Baltic region (Heavy Infantry guys), so main battle force center leader would have Unyielding + another skill.

Very important non-leadership traits for HI folk are brave, patient. Even better than some of leadership traits.
A guy with cruel, impaler is great for attacking morale of opponent, but not so much for Heavy Infantry folk, since after we survive skirmish, we want opponent to stay longer in battle, so he can be killed. HI are bad in pursue.
Strong is useful not to die in battlefield.

p.s.
Negatives can be ignored when martial > 20. Unless negatives are in terms of likelihood of bad tactics chosen or unpredictability.

p.s.2.
The most useless combination is flanker + organizer. Had one of my organizers get this Flank. Destroyed good commander.

 

[incognitus]

I really don't know why you're all celebrating organizer like that... it is useless in battles. Just swap out the lead commander one day before arrival to someone with battle skills. just like you do in sieges when you hava a siege leader.

If I have only two traits to pick to make my Archer leader as powerful as possible, Organizer would sure as hell not be one of them. Some random courtier with Organizer will do for the logistics, but when it comes down to battles, I want bang for my buck. And a bonus on retreat is not all that hot.

 

[Narvait]

This guy was crazy OP for Russian King, given how important and long winters are in Russia. Maybe martial could be higher, but in snow he ate my larger armies alone.

 

[hvald]

Yeah, I don't understand the love fest for Organizer. Not only doesn't it give any boon in combat but might actually in rare cases give a bad combat tactic (Timid Advance). I love to have a couple of organizers though for logistics, but not for combat.

Are you sure that light foot does not apply for archers? They are considered light infantry in the tech tree, just as pikes are considered heavy infantry. I'm just curious because I thought that light foot did indeed apply to archers as well (but I stand corrected if this isn't the case but a screen shot as proof would be nice).

 

[incognitus]

Yeah, I don't understand the love fest for Organizer. Not only doesn't it give any boon in combat but might actually in rare cases give a bad combat tactic (Timid Advance). I love to have a couple of organizers though for logistics, but not for combat.

Are you sure that light foot does not apply for archers? They are considered light infantry in the tech tree, just as pikes are considered heavy infantry. I'm just curious because I thought that light foot did indeed apply to archers as well (but I stand corrected if this isn't the case but a screen shot as proof would be nice).

Yeah, I thought so too. I actually had it in my OP like that, but when I checked the file, this is what it says:

#Leadership traits
light_foot_leader = {
leader = yes

command_modifier = {
light_infantry = 0.2
heavy_infantry = -0.1
}
}

heavy_infantry_leader = {
leader = yes

command_modifier = {
heavy_infantry = 0.2
cavalry = -0.1
}
}

cavalry_leader = {
leader = yes

command_modifier = {
cavalry = 0.2
light_infantry = -0.1
}
}

Even though the trait is called "Light Foot Leader", the bonus only applies to Light Infantry - which makes the trait utterly useless in my book. Well, maybe for Assault Retinues... Siege Leader + Light Foot Leader for siege all-rounder?

 

[NewbieOne]

Archers should have their own commanders and their own tech trees, lumping them together with LI is ludicrous.

Anyway, Flanker tends to produce some of the highest bonuses, although it isn't necessarily always the best trait. Holy Warrior will beat it when dealing with religious opponents. On the other hand, the rare combination of Unyielding + Defender will make them tough nuts to crack.

Organizers don't need to actually command in battle. You can replace them the day before.

 

[Narvait]

Winter Warrior in Russia (Finland, Scandinavia...) beats Holy Warrior 6 months out of 12 against any religion opponent

 

[Ciniod]

Winter Warrior in Russia (Finland, Scandinavia...) beats Holy Warrior 6 months out of 12 against any religion opponent

Can you have both Winter Warrior and Holy warrior? That as an unreformed pagan would be unbeatable except by like quadruple their army with HC and HI majority army... maybe even more, or maybe less...

 

[incognitus]

Can anyone confirm that having the military education trait on 4 unlocks a third leadership trait?

 

[Pornek]

Defender/Cavalry/Patient at 20+ martial with Knight/cavalry retinues.

 

[Zohtun]

Can anyone confirm that having the military education trait on 4 unlocks a third leadership trait?

Nope. All it does is guarantee you'll have 2 rather than depending on the RNG's love.

 

[Halcyan]

Nope. All it does is guarantee you'll have 2 rather than depending on the RNG's love.

I still occasionally see Brilliant Strategists with 0 combat traits.

BTW: The only time I have seen 3 combat traits is with the Joan of Arc character.

 

[Zohtun]

I still occasionally see Brilliant Strategists with 0 combat traits.

BTW: The only time I have seen 3 combat traits is with the Joan of Arc character.

Really? Never seen that myself but I know better than to discount the RNG's ability to hate.