ltccone

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Yes.

And I most heartily endorse your use of an exclamation point.

MOO!

Such a statement deserves nothing less than at least 1 exclamation point.

Some enthusiasts would suggest that 2 or 3 would be more appropriate.

That's from MOO!!!

:D

Yes.

And I most heartily endorse your use of an exclamation point.

MOO!

Such a statement deserves nothing less than at least 1 exclamation point.

Some enthusiasts would suggest that 2 or 3 would be more appropriate.

That's from MOO!!!

:D
MOO 2 was great too. :)
 

billcorr

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Zwirbaum

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halvorni

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I try to limit myself in SP using conscription laws. So, my last game as USA was played with limited conscription, which gave me a number of divisions (100+/-) that was fairly realistic compared to real life, although I had a huge surplus of equipment.
 

Kipsta

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Too much manpower, divisions are too cheap, logistics are too easy. It's a game.
Maybe at some point with the new addition of game rules we will see a more historically balanced set of settings, but I wouldn't expect those earlier than four or five years from now.
 

ltccone

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Screenshot is from MoO 2.
It has been a LONG time since I played either!
I try to limit myself in SP using conscription laws. So, my last game as USA was played with limited conscription, which gave me a number of divisions (100+/-) that was fairly realistic compared to real life, although I had a huge surplus of equipment.
I was at volunteer in my China game, and still had more manpower than I could use. But it was China...
 

The_Meme_Man

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Wow. I've never had that kind of casualty count happen before in a game. Every game for me, consistently, is Britain, America, and the USSR each losing 4 million men each, Germany losing 6-8 million men, Japan losing around 2-3 million men, and myself a few hundred thousand.

Personally, I think there are too many DIVISIONS in the game, but that's just me complaining about walls of infantry spanning the longest borders without seeing any real unit diversity on the enemy's side. I know that in-game divisions are significantly smaller than IRL divisions that operate over multiple in-game provinces.
 

ltccone

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Wow. I've never had that kind of casualty count happen before in a game. Every game for me, consistently, is Britain, America, and the USSR each losing 4 million men each, Germany losing 6-8 million men, Japan losing around 2-3 million men, and myself a few hundred thousand.

Personally, I think there are too many DIVISIONS in the game, but that's just me complaining about walls of infantry spanning the longest borders without seeing any real unit diversity on the enemy's side. I know that in-game divisions are significantly smaller than IRL divisions that operate over multiple in-game provinces.
The UK, Italy, and Germany were all on "scraping the bottom of the barrel" in manpower laws.
 

Nuklearius

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Manpower is way too abundant in game. First I thought the system is superior, but it actually is worse in some regards, than HOI3. Countries like the US and Britain completely overdraft their entire population. 25% just by the basic laws is a crazy amount of men for any country with more than 10 million inhabitants. That would mean every second man would be drafted into the army.

Realistically, this should come with extreme consequences like barely being able to produce at all and frequent events like famines lowering national unity. In WW2 Finland had to demobilize some of their divisions, because the men were needed as workers on the fields.

Then there is no supply system and no officer ratio, which means two of the powerchecks of the already spammy HOI3 were removed, and spamming divisions isn't prevented at all.

But it is all WAD. Without the spam and the insane casualty tolerance the AI would just cease to function.
 
T

Technoincubus

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Speaking about manpower problems in HoIIV.
gSYeZOj.jpg
 

Zwirbaum

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xustc

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The Allies and I defeated Germany in July of 1948. At the time of Germany's surrender, she still had 150 divisions in the field.

I agree with you. I saw pretty much what you have. The AI can't do pockets so most manpower was lost due to under equiped divisions.

And playing China was weird. I had united China, and literally had more manpower than I knew what to do with. I ended up fielding more than 800 divisions (I ended the war with 24 modern armor divsions, and they sucked. They had no designer and bad doctrines; I had to outnumber panzer divisons at least 4-1 to beat them), more than I could use. And I still had over 10 million manpower in my pool as volunteers.

In Victoria II, the mobilization size is affected by industry tech (railway, etc) and political ideologies (nationalism, etc). However, in HOI4, only conscription laws. Besides, in Victoria, only the pops from primary or accepted cultures can be mobilized.

China, by that time, had neither the infrastructure nor the economy to support an European style mobilization. The conscription efficiency of many third world countries should be seriously nerfed.
 
T

Technoincubus

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80 'divisions' of 1 INF look powerful on paper... But in reality it ain't that much.
1 inf divisions is a 100000 soldiers on lowest estimates. Luxembourg had a 300000 population in HoIIV. Scraping the Barrel is 25% recruitment bonuse here and there and you have about 30% for said result of 100000.
This is the problem of HoIIV - devs wanteв to make minors able to field enough divisions to make a stand gagainst majors and this resulted in situation when smallest country in the world could field 100000 soldiers. Yugoslavia with 12 millions of core pop could field 650 20-width divisions (1000 manpower each brigade). By the late game world is swarming with minor armies.
 

Matoro_TBS

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1 inf divisions is a 100000 soldiers on lowest estimates. Luxembourg had a 300000 population in HoIIV. Scraping the Barrel is 25% recruitment bonuse here and there and you have about 30% for said result of 100000.
This is the problem of HoIIV - devs wanteв to make minors able to field enough divisions to make a stand gagainst majors and this resulted in situation when smallest country in the world could field 100000 soldiers. Yugoslavia with 12 millions of core pop could field 650 20-width divisions (1000 manpower each brigade). By the late game world is swarming with minor armies.

Then again I understand perfectly why they did it: if you're locked behind abysmal manpower, you really cannot do much. They wanted that you can do interesting stuff with nations such as Greece, New Zealand and Finland. I think it should always be possible to theoretically do a world conquest with any nation in any Paradox game.

If attrition caused some manpower losses I'd imagine manpower would work better.
 

tazaaron

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Yes, because support and logistics roles aren't represented, and convoys don't use manpower.

Exactly this, for everyman on the front lines there was many times that in the rear supporting him one way or another. HOI has never represented the people in the rear.

I'm sure there manpower numbers are pretty close but they don't take into account the millions in the rear in C&C and Logistics
 

Fulmen

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Exactly this, for everyman on the front lines there was many times that in the rear supporting him one way or another. HOI has never represented the people in the rear.

I'm sure there manpower numbers are pretty close but they don't take into account the millions in the rear in C&C and Logistics
Tbh I wish they added a pool that required both manpower and equipment the larger your military, territory and the longer your supply lines are. The pool would represent all the things you mentioned as well as garrison forces too small to represent on-map (i.e. province control), etc. You could then have a few tiers of bonuses or maluses, based on how well manned and supplied that pool would be.

Might be easier said than done though, especially without making it into yet another "gotta micro this once in a while" minigame like they did with MEFO bills.
 
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EntropyAvatar

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Then again I understand perfectly why they did it: if you're locked behind abysmal manpower, you really cannot do much. They wanted that you can do interesting stuff with nations such as Greece, New Zealand and Finland. I think it should always be possible to theoretically do a world conquest with any nation in any Paradox game.

I'd like to find some way to enable "Finland world conquest" without screwing up the mainline historical game too much. Maybe make it a bit easier to for small minors to gain cores on conquered territory? Like you can core something for a political power cost proportional to the value of your current cores. That way it's an unlikely but possible political evolution rather free manpower for everyone?, and doesn't derail the majors much.
 

James Hale

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@podcat

Have you seen this thread?
 

kettyo

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  • 4 population to farming
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As much as i love MOO (more version 1 than 2 though) it is so insane that half of the population is doing research. In real life only a handful of people doing that. I can easily imagine a hundred times or more people doing farming and food related activities than doing research activities, including food related research.
 

Sourlol

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@kettyo When it is abstracted that far, the chef and janitor at the lab count as research, so does the security guard at the base perimeter. As does all the guys working in the fab shop that makes the bespoke parts, the teamster who transports it, and of course the scientists who conduct tests on it and engineers who apply it to the real world.

That said, 50% on research is bonkers compared to real life labor divisions.