I wasn't aware that Ming was historical overlord of all of India, Oceania, and Japan
Is Ming still an OP eastern octopus?
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I wasn't aware that Ming was historical overlord of all of India, Oceania, and Japan
One of my favourite features of the old Mingsplosion system is the uncertainty or sense of discovery - the interest of finding out the results of the China collapse, judging the balance of power amongst the sucessor states and working out how to get a foot in; how much of a game-changer it is when you reach Indochina and discover that the Ming are intact and will have things to say about your plans; the satisfaction of managing to trigger (or even just witnessing) a Mingsplosion and watching the greatest empire of the earth slide into chaos; the horror of having the Ming suddenly turn on you after you get big near them, and the elation of sometimes beating them in those knife-edge before-you're-ready wars.
All this is a little diminished now that I'm a better player and understand how to go about invading an intact Ming. But it's still something I like a lot and which by all accounts the with-expansion version, where the Ming are always there and you can always expand as a tributary without drawing their ire, does not have.
The problem with Ming isn't that its too powerful, but that it's so boring. It takes away a huge area of the earth with its immense bulk then does nothing at all. No blobbing, no falling apart. It's just a waste of space imo. Several times in the past I've actually purposely broken the Ming into 100 pieces and taken nothing for myself because they're so boring.
Player Manchu would easily win, but AI Manchu will most likely fail. Which is right if Manchu was the only nation fighting against Ming. In history Manchu would not have won against Ming by itself. In fact Manchu was on the verge of financial ruin due to the Ming embargo until a united Japan invaded Korea and gave Manchu a lifeline. And Japan only gave Ming trouble because of all the other wars and revolts and disasters Ming suffered.
Any one or two of these alone is not enough to take down Ming, and the game models that part fine. The problem is that revolts aren't threatening to large nations in general, and more importantly exhausting wars rarely happen. Medium to large nations in game never declares offensive wars on Ming to destroy themselves and damage Ming somewhat, like the Shan Confederacy or Taungu Empire did historically.
Pulling things of out thin air isn't unique, it happens will all major blobs.
I can agree with the boring part, but what's an alternative? Ming was a very passive player relative to its size compared to other majors. Perhaps if there was an option for Ming to follow the steps of Song and trade and explore the seas, or follow Tang and expand in land westward. Though both options were what Ming specifically avoided doing.
Frankly speaking a lot of late games are like that, with either a stalemate between the majors, or one side triumphs and continue eating everyone else.
Right now it's a challenge that people will have to overcome, but once you get through the first steps it becomes trivial just like killing other majors.
Quoting this, anything is better than the status quo where you can't DoW anyone east of Persia without Ming getting involved, and if you want to actually play in that part of the world you must use the one and only true tactic of eating all the other tributaries from inside the Ming Force Field of Invulnerability before turning on them.
Even taking the Mandate for yourself is boring because it takes so many wars to eat all of Ming and the actual Mandate mechanics themselves are far too easy to handle. The thing making Ming incredibly unfun is tributaries, rather than them being the EoC.
The same is true for any blobbed-out major ingame, so it doesn't really make sense applying it only to Ming. I think we can agree on the fact, that inside the game's overall concept and cornerstone mechanics, the current implementation is pretty decent.
Again, its the same that every major in this game does. Ming is just chilling there, because inside the current mechanics, the Europeans need to have a good degree of cooperation to ever put a dent in Ming's army and economy, which is pretty historic. The case of AI being unable of such a high-level cooperation is a different matter entirely. If it would ever be made to repeat what the Europeans did with QIng/China historically, then i am all up for it. The case is not about nerfing Ming, its about buffing those who are supposed to hurt it.
A good degree of cooperation? Qing didn't manage to beat Europeans when outnumbering them 10-1. Qing isn't Ming however I fail to see how this would have made much difference. At the later parts of the timeline china might as well be fighting aliens. This is not modeled in any way. All majors are way too stable but the other majors actually have competition. The ottomans need to overcome Austria and the Mamelukes and England needs to overcome France. What is Ming in danger from? Historically accurate revolts? Coalition of foes? European superpowers that end up doing nothing ? Hordes that can't even defeat Korea? Ryuku? None of them ( except maybe ryuku ) ever does anything against Ming. The game is modeled after its own rules not the historical ones so AI not beeing even remotely able to do something is a good indicator that it needs changing. Ming wasn't an invincible superpower, it had problems it needed to overcome and that is simply not in game when it gets unlimited money infuriatingly large amounts of troops and virtually no technological penalty without even having to work for it.
You shouldn't be forced to turn off a DLC just to play in a different region. That's not how the game's design process has normally worked and it certainly shouldn't now.
It seems to me like Ming has gotten lots of rich flavour but no real depth to how to tackle it. It's absurd how you need to become a tributary just to work against them. Ming is overly strong, but that might change next patch.
I really fear that PDX keeps Ming too OP in MoH cause they are afraid to angry new chinesse player base.
Which is funny because OP Ming makes Ming un-fun to play. There's no sense of accomplishment even compared to playing as France or the Ottomans. I can only play philanthropist Ming now if I want fun, by making my TRIBUTARIES great instead of myself.
Financial overhaul and internal politics are the only way I can imagine fixing OP blobbers without being culturally exclusive. Every nation has a reason to stay or fall, and that reason being depicted as a game mechanic is better than scripted events and handicaps. Though the 1556 Shaanxi Earthquake needs to be a scripted event.
I can't see what you mean, the Europeans respected China all the way until Japan beat them. Even during that war most European observers were certain that China would destroy Japan. And Qing did beat Russia within the game's timeframe.
But I do agree that China should in most cases fall behind. One of the biggest problems for both Ming and Qing was weak taxation.
Ming had a manpower of million troops. Most of Asian states were their tributaries. They had big treasure fleets that sailed to India, Persia, Aden, etc. Their seafarers even passed the Cape of Good Hope before Europeans did. They were also not that far behind technologically. Yet they are perfectly defeatable in the first 20 years of game. If you are playing with united Manchus, you don't even need allies. If you play with someone else, you just need to build up a good alliance, tech up and strike them at the right time. Let's not forget that they sit at 0 manpower for a good portion of early game. They are really not that tough of a customer, like say, the Ottomans.
Well Japan kinda destroyed china in the war. Not sure if the observers were that wrong though it wouldn't be the only time. Russia did face some other problems on the war, one of them was beeing one of the most backward states in Europe.
once i have over 40 cannons, i prefer to chain wars vs ming attacking their tributaries, so always leave 5 or 6 alive!
They're perfectly defeatable for the player, sure, but it's well established that the player can do more or less whatever they damn well please. The player being able to deal with a situation is not a good argument for its being balanced appropriately.
I know. I'm not arguing that the hordes are weak. Northern frontier tribes really could use a general buff.
- Jianzhou is the most powerful Jurchen tribe. It cannot be paralleled by Haixi and especially Yeren, yet they are exposed very early by Korea. AI Korea never hesitates to declare, and Jianzhou, the first, the last, and the only hope of Manchu, gets forever lost to the ever steady Korea. Buff Jianzhou so they are not the easy insta-target for Korea.
- Mongolians could also get some buffs as well. They defeated a 200 000 strong Ming expedition with as much as 20 000 men (they didn't engage with the entire manpower in a single battle, though) in 1449. I know the game cannot replicate these kinds of events, and the hordes already have some powerful military bonuses, but Mongolian tribes could also get some love. Buff Mongolia and the Four Oirats.
- Other tributaries are fine as they are IMO. Ayutthaya is especially underrated.
My main concern, however, is this: With the next expansion being focused at army professionalism, and Ming being one of the few nations that can always keep maintenance up, they will end up having some of the best troops, while the tribes, who are reliant on low maintenance during peace time, won't match their armies in quality. I sincerely hope there is something i am missing, but the whole army drilling and professionalism thing is quite scary to me.
Them's some well-reasoned points and to some extent I agree. I'm worried though about the extent to which buffing the traditional enemy of OP thing, then buffing their enemies, and so on and so on, is a classic formula for power creep, which imho there is already too much of. I share your worries about professionalism (and if I remember rightly there's also going to be supply depos which most likely will further add to the Ming's unrealistic ability to march massive armies on long extended campaigns in the steppe and the Tarim basin).
Something to better simulate the Oirat ability to raid and hit and run would be nice, but the Yongle emperor thrashed the Oirats in most pitched battles. What I'd like to see would be better representation of the logicial difficulties and taxation problems that prevented Ming total war in central Asia. The Ming didn't use a tributary system because it was efficient - they used it because occupying and holding on to that remote land themselves wasn't realistically in their power; and something in the game ought to reflect that.
Something to better simulate the Oirat ability to raid and hit and run would be nice, but the Yongle emperor thrashed the Oirats in most pitched battles. What I'd like to see would be better representation of the logicial difficulties and taxation problems that prevented Ming total war in central Asia. The Ming didn't use a tributary system because it was efficient - they used it because occupying and holding on to that remote land themselves wasn't realistically in their power; and something in the game ought to reflect that.
Or Scottland, like in my current campaign. It can get pretty ridiculous.