Is Ming still an OP eastern octopus?

[oros]

I know. I'm not arguing that the hordes are weak. Northern frontier tribes really could use a general buff.

• Jianzhou is the most powerful Jurchen tribe. It cannot be paralleled by Haixi and especially Yeren, yet they are exposed very early by Korea. AI Korea never hesitates to declare, and Jianzhou, the first, the last, and the only hope of Manchu, gets forever lost to the ever steady Korea. Buff Jianzhou so they are not the easy insta-target for Korea.
• Mongolians could also get some buffs as well. They defeated a 200 000 strong Ming expedition with as much as 20 000 men (they didn't engage with the entire manpower in a single battle, though) in 1449. I know the game cannot replicate these kinds of events, and the hordes already have some powerful military bonuses, but Mongolian tribes could also get some love. Buff Mongolia and the Four Oirats.
• Other tributaries are fine as they are IMO. Ayutthaya is especially underrated.

In my opinion, Ming shouldn't be nerfed, but the northern tribes need to be buffed in order to pose a larger challenge to Ming, as they always were.

My main concern, however, is this: With the next expansion being focused at army professionalism, and Ming being one of the few nations that can always keep maintenance up, they will end up having some of the best troops, while the tribes, who are reliant on low maintenance during peace time, won't match their armies in quality. I sincerely hope there is something i am missing, but the whole army drilling and professionalism thing is quite scary to me.

Ming is also the nation that just lose all its manpower to attrition and end up spamming mercs. So their professionalism will stay at zero. And army drilling doesn't buff mercs.

 

[Pomeranian]

You could also turn off Mandate of Heaven.

This does improve things but Ming is still ridiculous. In my current save (non-MoH), Ming has a bigger army than the other top 3 great powers COMBINED!

 

[gasior]

Ming is a beast.. yet as ppl said alrdy u can expand around him while being his tributary(while u get the amazing protection from them). The moment when ming got 0 mandate means that wars against him are easier than u can expect. Ming this patches develops lands like crazy(thanks to tributaries) but if u got nice absolutism in lategame u can do ming in 3 wars or smth close to it.
Overall i consider mandate of heaven DLC as a very good change from old mingplosion china... Still i would like to see manchu tribes + mongol hordes buffed because they are rather lackluster at this moment(aswell as some nice flavor for all hordes).

 

[Ase Of SpADeZ]

The ottomans are a cancer consuming all in their path. A true threat that you MUST fight if you're near them.
Ming is a benign tumor, ugly, unwelcome, not fun, not dangerous. Basically Jabba the Hutt. Pay them protection money (like a hutt) and they leave you alone.

Opinion made. Fight me.

 

[ThatRabidPotato]

This does improve things but Ming is still ridiculous. In my current save (non-MoH), Ming has a bigger army than the other top 3 great powers COMBINED!

I have never bought Mandate of Heaven, and from the threads like these I see all the time round here, I've never regretted it.
But even so, since the MoH patch, I have never once seen a Mingsplosion. Honestly, given the fact that I had only just really started playing the game in earnest a patch or two before MoH, I've never seen a Mingsplosion ever. It is extremely boring to always see the map open up, see the grayish white blob sitting in East Asia, and know that I stand no chance of filling the "Get Base In China" mission unless I commit 100% of my military for a long hard slog and ignore all the easier theaters around the world. Just frustrating and stupid.

 

[Browser]

While we're at it, can we get an HRE reform? One should not press a single button and assume direct control of dozens of nations at once and not suffer any consequences, I believe that is too overpowered and creates a Ming in the West.

But seriously, the Game starts at the peak of the Ming Empire, what do you guys expect, just to disappear if some hordes unite? So we're face with problem with having Ming being artificially nerfed, or being a major power for centuries. It is basically the Roman Empire, and empires don't collapse under one specific circumstance.

The Middle Kingdom under Ming was a pretty stable time, and even the transfer to Qing was merely a palace coup, and besides a few intervention wars, it wasn't until the fall the Qing that the Europeans really got into China military speaking. There was no such thing as a mingplosion, if you want to overthrow the Chinese Empire, well it speaks for itself. Japan, not even an Industrial japan could fully conquer China, it's a military nightmare to do.

Opposed to the chaos in Europe, East Asia should be relatively unchanging, no country had the staying power to challenge the Empire of China except Manchu, but it basically inherited it. Europeans shouldn't be going mass conquest sprees either (even though Russia does that sometimes) but instead trying to capture centers of trade from the Qing to set them up for Vic II.

I do believe Korea kinda annihilates any chance the hordes have because of their God-King, and the infamous "Korean Renaissance" when they develop their capital to pop the institution in which they get about 75% advantage in tech for the first two decades on top of their amazing king.

 

[BritNavFan]

The problem with Ming isn't that its too powerful, but that it's so boring. It takes away a huge area of the earth with its immense bulk then does nothing at all. No blobbing, no falling apart. It's just a waste of space imo. Several times in the past I've actually purposely broken the Ming into 100 pieces and taken nothing for myself because they're so boring.

I take your point, but when I ran a hands-off observer game (current version) I watched Ming troops sack Moscow. Not all that boring!

The tributary relationship should be nerfed IMO. From what I've seen, once an AI country becomes a tributary of Ming that's it for the rest of the game. The relationship should require some ongoing effort for Ming to maintain, and AI countries should cease to be tributaries from time to time. Also, it should be harder for Ming to make countries that don't directly border it tributaries.

Adding the continuation of the "treasure fleets" as an (expensive) option (that AI Ming might choose perhaps 5% of the time) would be an interesting "what-if".

In principle, marching an army through a nomad horde's land shouldn't capture that land the way settled lands are captured. But that would be a big addition to game mechanics.

 

[bly08]

Tributaries can't become independent without getting attacked by Ming. But if Ming is weakened by the player it'll lose tributaries who might also take advantage. I think the problem would solve itself if Ming can be weakened more easily. Mandate should also be harder to gain and lose. If a horde takes EoC their mandate should not drop instantly.

 

[creativitypersonified]

Tributaries can't become independent without getting attacked by Ming. But if Ming is weakened by the player it'll lose tributaries who might also take advantage. I think the problem would solve itself if Ming can be weakened more easily. Mandate should also be harder to gain and lose. If a horde takes EoC their mandate should not drop instantly.

The player can already do whatever he pleases. There needs to be some way for the AI to keep up