I dislike the skill trees, and believe characters are losing their identity.

[cosmeIII]

tl;dr: I believe that the skill trees are a mistake at least with their current implementation. They goad you into a specific playstyle for years on end of gameplay yet lack enough depth to offer you variety within that playstyle. Characters turn into one-dimensional beings, which is further reinforced by having very few traits and personality archetypes.

Rant/
Of course, this at first may seem fine. Characters have so many paths to explore! From the intriguey courtier, to the crafty merchant, to the noble knight. But once you have visited all these paths, how often would you like to visit them again? We all know that we will go through all of these paths in but a few dozens of hours of gameplay, and I am sure they will be fun and well worth the price.

Yet what comes after? You'll have played through the Noble Knight skill tree for the 10th time and you'll start to realize how boring it gets that all 10 of these characters felt like they were the exact same with a different 3D model attached. Characters are losing their personal touch with the implementation of this skill tree and the new 'few traits' system. I feel this is even more so reinforced with the fact that characters now get a 'personality'. You will not fear your uncle Tim who's getting way too intimate with that dagger of his, you'll fear his personality archetype, you'll fear the 'Scheming Mastermind' or whatever his personality will be called.

The next complaint I have about the skill trees is that they seem shallow. I'm seeing a lot of small modifiers here and there that give you small boosts to characteristics, vassal relations, income... So? Is that it? Sometimes they do unlock a decision, a casus belli or a scheme, but why are they locked behind a specific skill tree? They should be available for characters to use at all times! If your character can't handle it and fails catastrophically, then that's your character's fault! Why can't my noble knight use crafty schemes unless he lets go of his noble knight skill tree and spends a decade or two going down the crafty rogue skill tree? What's the stress system for? Just to punish you for choosing wrong options in events?

Tell me, devs, why are characters goaded into archetypes instead of being modular beings with no predefined 'personality' but the one created by the character, his circumstances, and the events surrounding him? You know, the entire thing that makes an alt-history game based around its characters fun and unpredictable?

/Rant

 

[Pelthis]

I'm still cautiously optimistic about it, but you summarize my fears pretty well.

In CK2, most WoL focuses gave some decisions / actions or a chance to trigger some random events. And everything is in the "random". Even though there are of course lots of similarities between two characters chosing the same focus, there are still many unknown factors. And that's why I like it.

Currently, with what we know about CK3 Lifestyles, it seems way too linear to me. Since the very moment you pick a skill tree, you know exactly where you'll end within a few years.
"Click this button to unlock permanent static bonus" doesn't seem very fun gameplay mechanic to me.

So imho, what these skilltrees need are mainly some randomness associated with it, through events or anything else, but randomness is needed to not make all characters look the same.

In my current CK2 games, I'm palying Norse vikings. So of course, all of my rulers were members of Warrior Lodge raiding coasts everywhere they could, but they still felt somewhat different from each other due to some random events which happened to some of them.

I hope Paradox has already planned content like this to go alongside the skilltrees. If they didn't, it's not too late to start.

And I also agree with OP, about the fact that actions shouldn't be locked by skill trees. You should be able to do whatever you want with any character. But if you put your shut-in wise character on the frontline of the battlefield, he'd have high chances to die. So your brave knight suddenly wanting to kill his brother to inherit whole of his father lands would probably be caught quickly, but it's how it happens in real life. So let characters be characters and do whatever they (or the player) like, even though it means a 99% probability of critical failure.

 

[fourworlds]

I actually feel the opposite. While WoL is one of my favorite DLCs, I think there are very clear winners in certain paths, and there are traits I've never explored. Also, no matter what kind of character I have personality wise, I tend to make the same choices because they're the optimal ones. My characters are often stressed and greedy because I like getting money from the Business events. Frankly, the more I play the more my characters become similar to each other.

However, the skills that are available in the skill tree all look really good. I can see myself playing around with different paths depending on the character I have and the needs of my country. Sure there will be clear winners and losers, and the balance will likely need to be looked at, but I see myself as having a more diverse set of characters rather than less diverse personally.

Also, the new stress system will make me actually pause and consider taking less optimal choices for the sake of not making my character go insane. I think individually almost any of the new RPG systems can be abused, but the new stress system helps at least give consequences for a lot of the abuse that might happen.

 

[Austregisel]

On the other hand, perks bring a varied form of game to the player and to AI, with you managing to complete a perk tree in approximately 20 years around.
First because they release a lot of mechanics, including new ones, while the CK2 mechanics released by all focuses was just corousing and seduce if I'm not mistaken, I just remember those two.
Another thing is that you will surely see that you will not be with a character every time getting a perk, because a character is a good strategist, it would be good for you to follow the strategy perk tree and further expand the possibility of your achievements, on the other hand On the other hand, your successor was complicated by the vassals being ambitious, this would be a good time to follow a spying perk to check the vassals, or to follow a diplomacy or augustus perk, for you to change their opinions about yourself.
Another time you would finish feudalizing your great kingdom, and think that you can further develop it by taking an administrator or architect perk if you have already established your power, you might also think that it would now be necessary to solidify religion in your kingdom, that is whatever you want, you will clearly have a perk that will help you in your goal, to the detriment of other areas, for sure the characters will be very different from each other, maybe still need some balance I don't know.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Everytime I see a "rant" like this one I can't help but wonder if the ranter even played CK2.

Characters in CK2 did not have those complex identities you're making up just because they were trait hoarders. Most traits were basically modifiers, with little to no influence on how they behaved.
Sure the lifestyle trees can look a bit linear. Sure there could be more personality archetypes. But the very existence of both those things is an undeniable, massive step in the direction of MORE personality and identity for characters.

Tell me, devs, why are characters goaded into archetypes instead of being modular beings with no predefined 'personality' but the one created by the character, his circumstances, and the events surrounding him

Because that's how it worked in CK2, and it wasn't a good system.
Like it or not, but your idea of good characters is nothing more than a naive dream. It does not exist, in any fiction. All characters are built as archetypes. That's what makes them interesting. They are defined by their abilities and their weaknesses, by their expectability. Otherwise, what's the point? You have to close some doors so the doors that remain can lead somewhere consistently.
Keep in mind that you're playing in a world full of characters played by the AI. Sure it may feel frustrating for your character to not be able to do everything, and just let you choose what to do. But it also makes the AI characters more beliable as they act according to their traits and lifestyles, and not just out of pure randomness.

I'm sure that if you thought about it a bit more and stopped chasing impossible dreams, you could see the obvious advantages of character progression in CK3.

 

[Krajzen]

@cosmeIII

Eh, we'll see how it works.

Ck2 system had its own problems. Way of Life was great but its lifestyles compared with Ck3 were way less engaging and interactive. You pick one of few focuses and kinda hope you will get proper events. That's it.


And I think you greatly underestimate how many combinations of personalities can be made.

Using binomial coefficient, you have 9880 possible ways to choose 3 personality traits out of 40.

It makes your initial argument with predictive personalities rather miserable, doesn't it? Unless you expected more than 10 000 personality types lol.

And it doesnt even include non-personality traits (because remember, there are many more traits than those fundamental). Once you include gardeners, shia mystics, lunatics etc then you get insane character variety.

On top of that, you forgot the very reason why there are LESS but STRONGER personality traits. In ck2 characters had so damn many traits and they were changing so often and casually that both individual traits and characters were dilluted and less defined along the way, everybody was a carrier of a dozen different fluctuating qualities, few of which were truly fundamental.

I prefer ck3 approach.

 

[gtigers55]

I think the entirety of the game weighs on how well this stress mechanic is implemented. If it truly weighs on a trusting character that his wife cheated on him, or that his brother killed his only son instead it makes it much more realistic for the character to gain negative traits such as depression or have a mental breakdown. If that mechanic is implicated well and is in sync with character development and lifestyle trees the game should be successful. To what extent is limited by the strategy aspect and if they flesh out some of the features (I.e. feudal contracts) before release or soon thereafter.

 

[JonathanViking]

CK3 focuses also have random events tied to those focuses.

i like this but also not because then it would very fast feel like you get the same events all the time with is booring

 

[qer]

I don't really like it to be honest, as rigth from the start seem to be completly unnatural as to how people develop. Sure in Ck2 this happens as well, and you could optimize life focuses to a large degree, but at least in the few first game they may appear random. Making the game more random in regards as to how characters develop could be something interesting to see.

 

[Bearnest]

Characters turn into one-dimensional beings, which is further reinforced by having very few traits and personality archetypes.

Currently, with what we know about CK3 Lifestyles, it seems way too linear to me. Since the very moment you pick a skill tree, you know exactly where you'll end within a few years.

I wonder if you'd be more in line with a skill tree like Wolcen's?

Spoiler: Skill tree

It already has the right colors for skills

The revised skill tree. Be advised, though, that newer updates have trimmed these heavily

 

[Denkt]

I wonder if you'd be more in line with a skill tree like Wolcen's?

It basically just look like the CK3 trees but they combined the tree Lifestyle trees into one big tree, so instead of 15 trees, you have 5 trees.

 

[Bearnest]

It basically just look like the CK3 trees but they combined the tree Lifestyle trees into one big tree, so instead of 15 trees, you have 5 trees.

CK3 doesn't have "trees"; it has "life roads". And they all arrive at same destination. Always.

 

[Denkt]

CK3 doesn't have "trees"; it has "life roads". And they all arrive at same destination, always.

Only if you finish them which is not a requirement.

 

[Bearnest]

Only if you finish them which is not a requirement.

This is irrelevant. It completely misses the point that once you start a Lifestyle, you can only go forward to the next point, you can't move to the sides (and IIRC, you need to check all the dots to get the final one. In the pictures provided, you clearly don't need to fill the whole tree to get to the next level)

 

[Limbojack]

I consider the skill trees to be a great addition to the game, but I also expect improvements through DLCs and patches. The skill and dynasty trees open up something completely new to players, so if the development of these systems has made characters less interesting, I'm sure they'll look into it.

 

[Denkt]

This is irrelevant. It completely misses the point that once you start a Lifestyle, you can only go ahead to the next point, you can't move to the sides (and IIRC, you need to check all the dots to get the final one. In the pictures provided, you clearly don't need to fill the whole tree to get to the next level)

Each time I gather up x amount of XP I can pick any of the available perks in that Lifestyle which will often be 3 or more since each Lifestyle have 3 perk trees. Also I can change focus from time to time to gain XP in other perk trees which can be useful if you feel the need of a specific perk.

 

[Bearnest]

Each time I gather up x amount of XP I can pick any of the available perks in that Lifestyle which will often be 3 or more since each Lifestyle have 3 perk trees. Also I can change focus from time to time to gain XP in other perk trees which can be useful if you feel the need of a specific perk.

I know you're being pedagogical, but hear me out; let's you pick Strategist "Life Track" from the Martial Lifestyle:

(^^^thanks for putting together all of these, by the way) EDIT: Picture quoted was deleted by OP, then re-posted, then re-quoted
If you've "unlocked" Engineered for Destruction, you are set to pick Living Off the Land next. It's bound to happen. There's no diversification or side path. And to get the Strategist trait at the end of the Track, you need all of the perks above. There's no way out. Of course, you're free to not finish the "Track" all the way through, but like I said, that's beside the point.

 

[Denkt]

If you've "unlocked" Engineered for Destruction, you are set to pick Living Off the Land next. It's bound to happen. There's no diversification or side path. And to get the Strategist trait at the end of the Track, you need all of the perks above. There's no way out. Of course, you're free to not finish the "Track" all the way through, but like I said, that's beside the point.

If you pick the first perk in strategist, you can in your next pick choose between 5 perks, 3 in the strategies tree and the opening perks of the other two trees. So you do have a number of choice.

Yes everytime you finish a perk tree it will be identical, but the perk trees are just a part of a bigger system, they are not Everything. Why they did like they did, I don't know but I suspect it is easy to balance by controlling which order perks can be picked and they clearly want a Lifestyle to represent a completed tree.

The perk system is probably not a good design by itself, it survives because it is one system and you have stuff like personality traits that can cause stress to make up for the perk system lacking in variety. If the perk system was standing alone it would probably actually be quite bad, so it is important to know the difference.

I think that is why the perk system is criticized, as people look on it in vacuum without taking account for the other mechanics.

 

[Denkt]

(^^^thanks for putting together all of these, by the way)

Why do you think I made it, the only thing I did was to post it? Don't assume the stuff I post are made by me and if you take a look you will find it is actually taken from the DDs and Youtube video, so the people you should thank are the people who made the graphics and text for the perk trees.

I actually feel the opposite. While WoL is one of my favorite DLCs, I think there are very clear winners in certain paths, and there are traits I've never explored. Also, no matter what kind of character I have personality wise, I tend to make the same choices because they're the optimal ones. My characters are often stressed and greedy because I like getting money from the Business events. Frankly, the more I play the more my characters become similar to each other.

However, the skills that are available in the skill tree all look really good. I can see myself playing around with different paths depending on the character I have and the needs of my country. Sure there will be clear winners and losers, and the balance will likely need to be looked at, but I see myself as having a more diverse set of characters rather than less diverse personally.

Also, the new stress system will make me actually pause and consider taking less optimal choices for the sake of not making my character go insane. I think individually almost any of the new RPG systems can be abused, but the new stress system helps at least give consequences for a lot of the abuse that might happen.

Yes without the stress system the perks system would not work well at all and it would be like CK2.

 

[Bearnest]

Why do you think I made it, the only thing I did was to post it? Don't assume the stuff I post are made by me and if you take a look you will find it is actually taken from the DDs and Youtube video, so the people you should thank are the people who made the graphics and text for the perk trees.

Well, I didn't see you providing any source for the "mosaics", so you'll excuse me if I assumed you made them. Thanks for posting them, though.

If you pick the first perk in strategist, you can in your next pick choose between 5 perks, 3 in the strategies tree and the opening perks of the other two trees. So you do have a number of choice.

Yes everytime you finish a perk tree it will be identical, but the perk trees are just a part of a bigger system, they are not Everything. Why they did like they did, I don't know but I suspect it is easy to balance by controlling which order perks can be picked and they clearly want a Lifestyle to represent a completed tree.

The perk system is probably not a good design by itself, it survives because it is one system and you have stuff like personality traits that can cause stress to make up for the perk system lacking in variety. If the perk system was standing alone it would probably actually be quite bad, so it is important to know the difference.

I think that is why the perk system is criticized, as people look on it in vacuum without taking account for the other mechanics.

I DO like the perk system. I think, CK3 being mostly a RPG over a map painting game, the perk system makes sense.
OTOH, I think that what they've shown us on the DDs is a little stiff, not versatile enough. As I've mentioned, is not a "tree" in the sense that it doesn't branch out, but it follows a rather strict path. That's not to say, as many here on the forum have said that it's going to get stale fast. I think is a step in the right direction, but has lots of space to improve upon.