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This is the best thing I've seen since the beta patches ...
If EU3 doesn't come out, This will be a daimn good replacement
If EU3 doesn't come out, This will be a daimn good replacement
Well, in case there hasn't been enough praise yet, I'll just add that this is looking really great! I am looking forward to the release of this map - it will make EUII a new game!
Dear MKJ, excuse me for bothering, but it seems that some very important politico-economical incongruencies are existing in your chart-variant.
267) You are keeping 267 name for "Olonetz" province but famous "Olonezt kopi" region of medieval time is modern time - Karelia, I'm afraid. Land just beneath of White sea would be more appropriate named as "Vologda" region.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
268) You are keeping 268 province name for Vologda, but it's rather wrong call again. According to province.scv chart this region is very productive, but it's production is - Naval. The best call in this situation would be "Jaroslavl" name - zone of strong flax-raising and wood-cutting, but grain-output in Jaroslavl region was traditionally poor in comparison with more southern provinces. In any case former center of Jaroslavl principality must be mentioned (yep, you've mentioning him, but in wrong placement with wrong sort of production attached.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
270) You are renamed former Moscow province into Jaroslavl name, but it is wrong call again. According to province.scv resource value this province is producing Grain and has highest possioble value amongst other Russian Province of region. These requirement are met for "Zalessje" region and most important city in Zalessje is (and was) Vladimir. Then 270 must get "Vladimir" name.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
271) You are proposing 271 province as Kazan, but it is very bad idea - Tartar-filled lands became to be filled with Iron sources on North direction from very important Volga-Kama intersection. I'm afraid - Tartars were absent in these lands
It seems, "Perm" name, or "great Barmia" is more appropriate name for this province - due to its position and material source. "Vjatka" would be worse choice, because it's not quite best suite for local production, but it is rather good thing for placement accordance.
272) Naming former "Nizhgorod" province as "Cheboksarai" is really - daring move. I'm not sure if this is good idea - anyway. Nizhgorod was most important trading center of Russian Empire on very important River crossing (point of entrance of Oka River into Volga River). It means your idea to push Nizhgorod from River Valley into water-less zone is interesting, but - relly impractical, I'm afraid. 272 province is only possible place for keeping Nizhgorod on this chart in rather appropriate place, then "Chebok-saray" must go (I'm not sure if this city had real importance till October Revolution... and after it as well).
446) You are renaming former Kazan province into "Bolgary", but it is misunderstanding and anachronism. "Volga Bulgaria" existed till Mongol Invasion times - in other words - out from EU2 timespan. "Bulgars" start to be named - "Tartars", after their military leader - Berke Khan (third son of Juchi - eldest son of Ghenghis), which has a nickname - "Tartar", like modern Uzbecks are named for their quite popular in his times - Khan Uzbeck. In other words - there are not "Volga Bulgars" and "Volga Tartars" as different entities - it is the same ethnic group, which lived in Kama River Valley and is still living in the same place. More then that - ancient "Bulgar" - capital of "Volga Bulgaria", became to be "old Kazan", according to new rule ("Kazan" - strictly speaking, means - "sediment capital" in comparison to "sarai" - "moving capital"), then local inhabitants still named this broken fortress as their "capital" anyway. By the way - "Kazan" (or "New Kazan") was created in close vicinity of former "Bulgar"/"Old Kazan" city and in later times both cities became to be one whole - then modern Tartar now is boasting some undeniable truth - their Capital is more ancient then absolute majority of all Russian cities.
Making two different provinces - one "Kazan" and another - "Bolgary" is quite funny thing and isn't advisable for any purpose.
447 and 448) You are renaming "Tambow" province into "Ryazan" province... Hm-m-m... We are coming to really hard incongruency now. and this thing is led us to next problem.
Problem is - there isn't any big city in East direction in Moscow vicinity. Till 1302 year this place was taken by Perejaslav-Zalessky and Murom, but Perejaslavl became to be "shadow of Moscow" in 1302 and Murom lost his importance - earlier. (Then Muscovy started its huge growth onto East, because there wasn't any powerful neighbor, which can contain Muscovy in this direction. It means both 447 and 448 must be Ryazan, but - 447 position is more appropriate.
What must be name for 448 province? It is a big question.
!) I don't like an idea, but next possible candidate for East neighbor of Muscovy is Vladimir.
We will get next configuration - Jaroslavl, Vologda and Olonetz are remain to proposed by you places and 448 region start to be "Vladimir" (idea of richest by its grain resources Vladimir as poor Wool gathering center is quite revulsing, but... - this configuration is rather good thing for actual placement of Principalities in Medieval Russia).
Dixi - for a while.
Sincerely yours, Bash
267) You are keeping 267 name for "Olonetz" province but famous "Olonezt kopi" region of medieval time is modern time - Karelia, I'm afraid. Land just beneath of White sea would be more appropriate named as "Vologda" region.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
268) You are keeping 268 province name for Vologda, but it's rather wrong call again. According to province.scv chart this region is very productive, but it's production is - Naval. The best call in this situation would be "Jaroslavl" name - zone of strong flax-raising and wood-cutting, but grain-output in Jaroslavl region was traditionally poor in comparison with more southern provinces. In any case former center of Jaroslavl principality must be mentioned (yep, you've mentioning him, but in wrong placement with wrong sort of production attached.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
270) You are renamed former Moscow province into Jaroslavl name, but it is wrong call again. According to province.scv resource value this province is producing Grain and has highest possioble value amongst other Russian Province of region. These requirement are met for "Zalessje" region and most important city in Zalessje is (and was) Vladimir. Then 270 must get "Vladimir" name.
!) Ehm, it is just one way of resolving this problem - another is in 447-448) section.
271) You are proposing 271 province as Kazan, but it is very bad idea - Tartar-filled lands became to be filled with Iron sources on North direction from very important Volga-Kama intersection. I'm afraid - Tartars were absent in these lands
It seems, "Perm" name, or "great Barmia" is more appropriate name for this province - due to its position and material source. "Vjatka" would be worse choice, because it's not quite best suite for local production, but it is rather good thing for placement accordance.
272) Naming former "Nizhgorod" province as "Cheboksarai" is really - daring move. I'm not sure if this is good idea - anyway. Nizhgorod was most important trading center of Russian Empire on very important River crossing (point of entrance of Oka River into Volga River). It means your idea to push Nizhgorod from River Valley into water-less zone is interesting, but - relly impractical, I'm afraid. 272 province is only possible place for keeping Nizhgorod on this chart in rather appropriate place, then "Chebok-saray" must go (I'm not sure if this city had real importance till October Revolution... and after it as well).
446) You are renaming former Kazan province into "Bolgary", but it is misunderstanding and anachronism. "Volga Bulgaria" existed till Mongol Invasion times - in other words - out from EU2 timespan. "Bulgars" start to be named - "Tartars", after their military leader - Berke Khan (third son of Juchi - eldest son of Ghenghis), which has a nickname - "Tartar", like modern Uzbecks are named for their quite popular in his times - Khan Uzbeck. In other words - there are not "Volga Bulgars" and "Volga Tartars" as different entities - it is the same ethnic group, which lived in Kama River Valley and is still living in the same place. More then that - ancient "Bulgar" - capital of "Volga Bulgaria", became to be "old Kazan", according to new rule ("Kazan" - strictly speaking, means - "sediment capital" in comparison to "sarai" - "moving capital"), then local inhabitants still named this broken fortress as their "capital" anyway. By the way - "Kazan" (or "New Kazan") was created in close vicinity of former "Bulgar"/"Old Kazan" city and in later times both cities became to be one whole - then modern Tartar now is boasting some undeniable truth - their Capital is more ancient then absolute majority of all Russian cities.
Making two different provinces - one "Kazan" and another - "Bolgary" is quite funny thing and isn't advisable for any purpose
.447 and 448) You are renaming "Tambow" province into "Ryazan" province... Hm-m-m... We are coming to really hard incongruency now. and this thing is led us to next problem.
Problem is - there isn't any big city in East direction in Moscow vicinity. Till 1302 year this place was taken by Perejaslav-Zalessky and Murom, but Perejaslavl became to be "shadow of Moscow" in 1302 and Murom lost his importance - earlier. (Then Muscovy started its huge growth onto East, because there wasn't any powerful neighbor, which can contain Muscovy in this direction. It means both 447 and 448 must be Ryazan, but - 447 position is more appropriate.
What must be name for 448 province? It is a big question.
!) I don't like an idea, but next possible candidate for East neighbor of Muscovy is Vladimir.
We will get next configuration - Jaroslavl, Vologda and Olonetz are remain to proposed by you places and 448 region start to be "Vladimir" (idea of richest by its grain resources Vladimir as poor Wool gathering center is quite revulsing, but... - this configuration is rather good thing for actual placement of Principalities in Medieval Russia).
Dixi - for a while.
Sincerely yours, Bash
I think geographic accuracy is what counts now, all economic characteristics can be adjusted anyway. just my 2 cents
Bash, can you also make a simplified list of province numbers + province names? Your explanations are useful for the discussion, but I think just a simple list would make it easier for MKJ to implement another map.Bash said:
Bash said:
267 Olonets province should be named Karelia. After all it presents 85-90% geographically this "province".
1470 Karelia. I don't have clue how this northern part of Karelia is called in english or russian. in Finnish it's "Viena" or "Vienan Karjala". Maybe simple "Viena" could be used?
Ges said:
I'm not so sure about it. Olonetz is historical center of Karelia province - sure thing.
City icon of Olonetz is properly placed on east shore of Ladoga lake - sure thing again.
East border of Karelia is Onega Lake, but Onega Lake is absent on Paradox chart, but it is approximately on 2/5 from west border of 267 province and on 3/5 from east border of the same province (please, check in - there is southern "Tongue" of White Sea as most part of eastern border - are you sure if Karelia was historically so wide - up to Karel' tribes lived in southern shore of White Sea??? If I remember history - all lands to east from Onega Lake begolng to Ugric tribes of Chud' (Zavolochskaya) - not to Karelian people. Yep, it is two close related Ugric tribes, but more then 60% of 267 province belong to non-Karelian guys (Yep, they are - Ugric origin - anyway).
In any case - in 1419 Olonetz didn't existed yet, but in 267 province territory existed another center - Kargopol (just below "Big Tongue" of White Sea) and Kargopol is definitely isn't Karelian city.
.I'm not sure - what is proper name for 267 province, but I would inclined to move "Olonetz" as province capital of "Karelia" into 1470 province, but 267 "as southern shore of White Sea" must receive some other name - like "Pomorje" with "Kargopol" as capital, but it is not so important in this issue. While we've got a discussion what is proper place for MOSCOW in EU2 chart - definitions of proper Olonetz/Kargopol placement is really small thing
.In any case 267 province is 40-45% of Karelia (with Karelian historic capital Olonetz included) - not 80-90% at all.
Sincerely yours, Bash
I used a ruler and an atlas and moscow should be in the vorones province... But the eu2 map have a lot of scaling errors especially near the border of mexico-USA and the north-east coast of asia.
For the horizontal line I used the beginning of the bay in north-east baltic sea (near the border between lithuania and latvia) and for the vertical line I used kega. russia near the cape in the white sea.
For the horizontal line I used the beginning of the bay in north-east baltic sea (near the border between lithuania and latvia) and for the vertical line I used kega. russia near the cape in the white sea.
Faq
Sure!! and don't forget an expanation and a FAQ file to use this maphacker!
WiSK said:
Sure!! and don't forget an expanation and a FAQ file to use this maphacker!
Taurus
Rename Tayrus ans Cylicia? This was the old name but was in use during the medieval time (you can use GALICIA)
Rename Tayrus ans Cylicia? This was the old name but was in use during the medieval time (you can use GALICIA)
Ges said:
I think that if there's any more suitable name, "Viena" should not be used, as it's confusing-sounding to English-speakers, who are likely to think of "Vienna", the way we spell Austria's capital. Obviously if that's the only acceptable name it's okay, but there's no need to be confusing if there are other names available.
Do you have Palatino light? I don't have it either. We need an artist which would implement the official changes we submit. We can't just have some random changes.
Check out the other page (Hacking the TBL files), it seems they were able to move some boundaries around.