Greek Focus Tree Suggestions - New Balkan and Anatolian States (Implemented In-game For Example)

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Yes to the first half, no to the second, Bulgarians were a very small population in the north
Well I think they were 30% in the south and 15% in the north that's also I think Bulgaria gets focuses were they can Bulgarize provinces so maybe that solves it. The question is what does PDX mean with Moesia because it could be a on the black sea coast or in Yugoslavia.
 
Absolutely, those claims are sadly missing, especially the West Banat one which was highly contentious with Hungary and apparently almost resulted in a war between the two hence why Hungarians only took the in-game state of Vodjvodina and Germany administered West Banat with the rest of Serbia. West Banat at the time had a Romanian minority, though they weren't super small, the closest demographic to start date, 1931, shows the Romanian population being 10.65% and the next one, 1948, shows 9.25%. So you could argue they might be able to get a core on West Banat after doing some later focus on Romanianization of the state. It would be hard to justify Romania getting cores on Alfold or Carpathian Ruthenia though, both had a Romanian minority but they were extremely small and it would take decades and some horrible actions to successfully Romanianize both states. If you're interested in reading about the West Banat issue in WWII between Romania and Hungary, I recommend this little piece of a paper, it's quite interesting and further proves that the common belief of the Axis being a big friendship alliance of fascist and authoritarian/totalitarian leaders to be completely wrong, and in fact, many times were against each other.
I find 10% of the population being too small for a core. With a core, you get 100% of manpower. This could work if you have a population of at least >30% of your population, and even that is a stretch, as you have 70% of people who are opposed to your rule but you get 100% of manpower and no ressistance. There could be a Romanianization decision or focus, but to get the population from 10% to 50% in a few years would be way too over the top. Unless full cores, partial cores and minor cores are made, I believe West Banat is better off as a Romanian claim.

Most likely, however not to everything, it seems like a lack of research was done for Romania, many things are not portrayed well at all, though that is a common problem with pre-MtG focus trees. Claiming Transnistria is already in the focus tree, problem is that the dev team has this problem, and they continue it to this day, of making a focus of a claim on a certain area into a generic "Annex Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" wargoal. No claims or cores usually, just go annex an entire country over a claim that is the point of a focus.... Regarding the stance on Romania annexing Transnistria or no, that would be quite interesting and I was unaware of that so thank you for inforing me, this could be turned into a choice for the player/AI if going historical, Transnistria should be made into a puppet, representing the Governorate, after acquiring the land, similar to a Reichskommisariat, once the Soviet Union collapses, or maybe once they're close to it, Romania can have the choice of annexing them to fully use the land or using it to gain back lost land from Hungary, so a skilled Romania would be able to keep the Transylvanian land and annex Transnistria but if unable to you have the choice to expand east or return west.
The problem is that claiming Transnistria does not claim Transnistria. It only gives Romania a wargoal against USSR. Making it just as likely that Germany will take Transnistria in the peace deals. Good idea, it would work great as a puppet similar to a Reichskommisariat and then have the decision to either fully annex it or ask Germany if they want Transnistria in exchange from land lost to Hungary.

My main thing is that I like having historical regions be represented properly and Hotin in the Bessarabia region so to me it should stay in Bessarabia. I think I misunderstood your original map and line proposal so sorry if I'm confusing you here. Hotin is a Bessarabian town and was annexed by the Soviet Union and put into the Ukrainian SSR into the modern day Chernivtsi Oblast which still exists to this day as the old territory of Northern Bukovina and Northern Bessarabia. If you're confused with what I mean feel free to ask for clarification.
That is correct, Hotin was part of Bessarabia but was put into the Ukrainian SSR after the annexation. Similary to South Bessarabia.

I'm aware that the Soviet Moldavia is not actually Moldavia itself, both the full and proper versions, I'm just calling it Moldavia since that's what its name was. This is why I hate that Moldavia (Moldova in-game, I don't know why since it wasn't called that....) was added several patches ago, especially straight away at start. Moldavia should not be releaseable until after the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, and while my previous point says I believe that Hotin should stay in Bessarabia which would create ahistorical borders in the result of a Soviet break up, I would argue that a Soviet rework is ahistorical so perfect post-Cold War national borders aren't guaranteed and while are nice to have, shouldn't be guaranteed. Regarding Moldavian cores at start, I hate that it's a thing and think it should be removed, Moldavia should not get cores until after the Soviet occupation, on top of that, the Ukrainian cores need to go, there was only one county in Southern Bessarabia that had a significant Ukrainian population and it was still a minority, in fact it only made up roughly 20% of the population for that county alone, the other three Southern Bessarabian counties did not have anything close to 20%. I would make it possible for after Romania fully reintegrates Bessarabia, basically win the war against the Soviets, that the Moldavian cores be removed. However, when Moldavia's cores are spawned they should get cores on the full version of Moldavia, so Moldavia proper, Northern Bessarabia, Southern Bessarabia, North Bukovina (Renamed Bukovina) and Southern Bukovina (Your new state) states in my opinion, making it possible for someone to use them as a small puppet to take more land from Romania and feed to their Moldavian puppet. Now on the topic of regional cores and a break up of Romania, I am conflicted on this but we could maybe add Wallachia and Transylvania cores, making Romania fragile and ripe for a breakup if someone else takes them down, I'm mostly thinking this since we have Moldavia and Transylvania was confirmed recently, may as well add the last one, Wallachia, has a possible small tag. I would make Wallachia have Muntenia, Oltenia, Northern Dobruja (New state) and Southern Dobruja (Renamed current Dobruja state), and Transylvania would have Northern Transylvania, Transylvania, Crisana and Banat.
I would argue that post-Cold War national borders could be interesting. A player may wish to expand that way and start World War III. I personally did so several times. There are of course mods for this, but mods also have extra features that I would rather not have.

I also discussed that previously:
I believe the only reason Southern Bessarabia was made into an Ukrainian core is because it's today part of Ukraine, which is an absurd reasoning.

The break up of Romania into Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania makes sense but only if it comes from the outside, and the regions you suggest are correct. While the Romanians lived in different countries for centuries, they were more like the Italians and less like the Yugoslavs. There was nobody to claim "We are Transylvanians, not Romanians" in the same way some people would claim "We are Croats, not Yugoslavs" in Yugoslavia. Where as Yugoslavia was seen as a conglomeration of people, Romania was more like the same people who were separated after birth and now they reunited.

I'm still iffy on adding a Transnistria state, I see some use but it's still not needed in my opinion, guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Regarding Hotin once again, it's already in Bessarabia, I thought your original talk on it was to move it to Bukovina?
My original talk was presenting both version and letting the users/developers decide.

Absolutely agreed, it also should be called Moldavia and not Moldova, it wasn't called Moldova until after the dissolution of the Soviet Union and on top of that Moldova is just Moldavia but in Romanian, so fitting the time and region name, it should be Moldavia.

Some additional claims that could work, these would never be cores but for those who want an uber aggresive Romania then you could add claims:

- The three northern Bulgarian states, effectively pushing the border back to protect the capital from Bulgarian aggression!
- Stanislawow and if you split Lwow into two states, a north and south, you could add the south, this is just border smoothing because if we take Transnistria, West Banat, Carpathian Ruthenia, Alfold and the proposed Khmelnytskyi it would be hideous in the north, also pushes the Romanian border to the edges of the Dniester which was claimed like you said
That would work better as a formable nation: Kingdom of Dacia.

The darker orange is the core Dacian heartland and the lighter orange are the regions they expanded to throught the centuries.

It includes as cores:
- 2/3 Transnistria regions
- The Polish region above Northern Transylvania.
- West Banat, Alfold or Carpathian Ruthenia.

It gains as claims:
- Central Hungary
- The 1/3 left region of Transnistria
- One more upper Polish region.
- Vojvodina and the 2 big regions of Serbia
- The 3 top regions of Bulgaria.
- Dobruja is already a Romanian core, they were Greek colonies back then.
- Czechoslovakia
8004a70c4eea746aced1ef04022a839f.jpg

This is obviously very unrealistic. But so if Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire. It's a just for fun formable nation.
 
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Well I think they were 30% in the south and 15% in the north that's also I think Bulgaria gets focuses were they can Bulgarize provinces so maybe that solves it. The question is what does PDX mean with Moesia because it could be a on the black sea coast or in Yugoslavia.

Even with a Bulgarianisation push in the north, it would take decades for the region to have a large Bulgarian population, not even majority, here is a picture of the 1930 census

1280px-Romania_1930_ethnic_map_EN.png


What would be Northern Dobruja would be the counties of Tulcea and Constanta, as you can see the Bulgarian population is quite small there while in Tulcea it's larger but still small, overall in the north, the Bulgarians made up about 9.6%. It would take many actions over a large period of time to lower the Romanian population and increase the Bulgarian one. Bulgaria should start with a claim on Southern Dobruja, then through rather the Treaty of Craiova, or others events from their new focus tree, get a core on it, and during the treaty, Romania loses their core since roughly 95% of the Romanian population left the area after Bulgarian takeover and the government had given it up so no state claim and no population claim means no core, although I believe that's already represented in-game. So I just don't think that 9.6% is enough to justify getting a core, even with Bulgarianisation getting it to 25% would be tricky, there were plenty more Romanians in the north and they made up 64.7%, much more then the 20.5% in the south, as to even expel as on the same percentage level in the north as historically happened in the south, you're looking at an expulsion of around 310,000 people, that would be a massive blow to the region population and would be very difficult to manage. So again, south no, north no.
 
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I find 10% of the population being too small for a core. With a core, you get 100% of manpower. This could work if you have a population of at least >30% of your population, and even that is a stretch, as you have 70% of people who are opposed to your rule but you get 100% of manpower and no ressistance. There could be a Romanianization decision or focus, but to get the population from 10% to 50% in a few years would be way too over the top. Unless full cores, partial cores and minor cores are made, I believe West Banat is better off as a Romanian claim.

I do agree absolutlely, I'll admit I don't know why I talked of a core, it's not enough, I do wish a middle ground between full-core and non-core, let's just say partial-core, and during the game a non-core could become a partial-core and a partial-core could become a full-core, however a state can only go up a level once during the entire game, regardless of player interaction and/or focuses, to avoid exploit basically. Anyway, moving on.

The problem is that claiming Transnistria does not claim Transnistria. It only gives Romania a wargoal against USSR. Making it just as likely that Germany will take Transnistria in the peace deals. Good idea, it would work great as a puppet similar to a Reichskommisariat and then have the decision to either fully annex it or ask Germany if they want Transnistria in exchange from land lost to Hungary.

I'm aware, I was pointing out that very flaw and this is common across many focus trees, we often don't see claims given to a country but generic annex which is completely different from a region claim. If I say I want Transnistria that doesn't mean I want from Odessa to Vladivostok. So i was trying to say that Romania should get claims to the two states, Vinnytsia and Odessa, maybe that Southern Khemlnytskyi state too, this way if the Axis achieve victory against is achieved then Romania should prioritize annexing those states, if we're not doing the Transnistria Governorate puppet idea, however I do think the claims should still be there in case Romania wants to start the war against the Soviet Union, since these would be claims on top of their idea to reclaim Bessarabia and Bukovina.

I believe the only reason Southern Bessarabia was made into an Ukrainian core is because it's today part of Ukraine, which is an absurd reasoning.

Absolutely, even during the time while there was a large Ukrainian population in the south, I don't see the 8.4% being enough for a core. I'm not a 100% on giving Ukraine a core after the Soviet occupation, since from my understanding they only got Southern Bessarabia since it had more Slavs and not specifically Ukrainians, there was actually more Russians and Bulgarians, 17.3% and 15.2% respectfully. The core on Northern Bukovina makes sense since the Ukrainians, while not a majority, were the dominant group and the attempts by local groups to break free from Romania before game start, so to me that core at start makes sense.

That would work better as a formable nation: Kingdom of Dacia.

The darker orange is the core Dacian heartland and the lighter orange are the regions they expanded to throught the centuries.

It includes as cores:
- 2/3 Transnistria regions
- The Polish region above Northern Transylvania.
- West Banat, Alfold or Carpathian Ruthenia.

It gains as claims:
- Central Hungary
- The 1/3 left region of Transnistria
- One more upper Polish region.
- Vojvodina and the 2 big regions of Serbia
- The 3 top regions of Bulgaria.
- Dobruja is already a Romanian core, they were Greek colonies back then.
- Czechoslovakia

Could be a fun goal for a super aggressive Romania, could give a name change too with all the conquered territory since it's no longer just Romania itself, or maybe you make it a choice between pushing Romanian traditions or embracing a new Dacian identity, these is all crazy alternate history stuff after all

This is obviously very unrealistic. But so if Byzantium and Holy Roman Empire. It's a just for fun formable nation.

Exactly, I'm just looking at ways to better represent the Romanian starting situation, their goals and path during the game and how player should finish, if playing historical or not.
 
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Even with a Bulgarianisation push in the north, it would take decades for the region to have a large Bulgarian population, not even majority, here is a picture of the 1930 census

View attachment 630259

What would be Northern Dobruja would be the counties of Tulcea and Constanta, as you can see the Bulgarian population is quite small there while in Tulcea it's larger but still small, overall in the north, the Bulgarians made up about 9.6%. It would take many actions over a large period of time to lower the Romanian population and increase the Bulgarian one. Bulgaria should start with a claim on Southern Dobruja, then through rather the Treaty of Craiova, or others events from their new focus tree, get a core on it, and during the treaty, Romania loses their core since roughly 95% of the Romanian population left the area after Bulgarian takeover and the government had given it up so no state claim and no population claim means no core, although I believe that's already represented in-game. So I just don't think that 9.6% is enough to justify getting a core, even with Bulgarianisation getting it to 25% would be tricky, there were plenty more Romanians in the north and they made up 64.7%, much more then the 20.5% in the south, as to even expel as on the same percentage level in the north as historically happened in the south, you're looking at an expulsion of around 310,000 people, that would be a massive blow to the region population and would be very difficult to manage. So again, south no, north no.
while you are certainly right, two points I would like to add:

- people often gave "wrong" answers in these censuses, the Hatay Census is a good example, they wanted to belong to the "in"-group, likewise many inhabitants would switch to being Bulgarian if the territory became Bulgarian.
- I agree it shouldn't be a core, Bulgaria should nonetheless get a claim on it making the Western Black Sea Coast theirs, with the focuses they already get bonuses on recruting from non-core pops so that would cover the Bulgarian share of the population.
 
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- people often gave "wrong" answers in these censuses, the Hatay Census is a good example, they wanted to belong to the "in"-group, likewise many inhabitants would switch to being Bulgarian if the territory became Bulgarian.

Yes that is true however we have to go by the results, these are how people identified as when given a choice so it's the best we have

- I agree it should be a core, Bulgaria should nonetheless get a claim on it making the Western Black Sea Coast theirs, with the focuses they already get bonuses on recruting from non-core pops so that would cover the Bulgarian share of the population.

I can get behind a core yes, however I would place these in the focus tree since Bulgaria right away wasn't claiming Northern Dobruja
 
Yes that is true however we have to go by the results, these are how people identified as when given a choice so it's the best we have

One old lady who lived in my block was born in Sothern Dobrudja when it was part of Romania. She used to tell stories how the Romanian police officers would walk past houses to make sure they were speaking Romanian. The pressure to assimilate was real.
 
One old lady who lived in my block was born in Sothern Dobrudja when it was part of Romania. She used to tell stories how the Romanian police officers would walk past houses to make sure they were speaking Romanian. The pressure to assimilate was real.

I'm aware, I already said Bulgaria deserves a core on it
 
From what I remember it doesn't get one until after Craiova, I just mean that they should have a focus to get a core on it before Craiova happens
Yes, I hate getting focuses by specific events. If Bulgaria conquers Dobruja by other means, it won't get the core.

It should be by focus, by decision or by an event that always fires when you control it.
 
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- The three northern Bulgarian states, effectively pushing the border back to protect the capital from Bulgarian aggression!
- Stanislawow and if you split Lwow into two states, a north and south, you could add the south, this is just border smoothing because if we take Transnistria, West Banat, Carpathian Ruthenia, Alfold and the proposed Khmelnytskyi it would be hideous in the north, also pushes the Romanian border to the edges of the Dniester which was claimed like you said
Would Romania have them at start? It seems to be more reasonable to gain them via focus.
 
These are amazing suggestions! Any chance of adding them as a mod in the meantime?
I have considered making a mod based on the suggestions, however, because I am in University right now and fairly busy I would need help with stuff such as how states are handled in focuses, the redistribution of population/factories and general game balance. Though I'm not saying its out of the question, I have other suggestions which I might go into in the near future.
 
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This mod I find fix Balkans borders. Except for a few problem in Greece.


Axis occupation of Greece - Wikipedia

Crete needs to be split into two States. German controlled the left 3/4 of the state.

Part of the Central Macedonia state (the furthest right side province) needs to be broken off and added to Thrace.

The Aegean Islands need to be broken into two states. The Germans occupied most of northern ones.

The province that includes Alexandroupolis needs to be broken off from Thrace and made into its own state. The Germans occupied this province.

Athens should be made its own state. The Germans occupied Athens.
 
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This mod I find fix Balkans borders. Except for a few problem in Greece.


Axis occupation of Greece - Wikipedia

Crete needs to be split into two States. German controlled the left 3/4 of the state.

Part of the Central Macedonia state (the furthest right side province) needs to be broken off and added to Thrace.

The Aegean Islands need to be broken into two states. The Germans occupied most of northern ones.

The province that includes Alexandroupolis needs to be broken off from Thrace and made into its own state. The Germans occupied this province.

Athens should be made its own state. The Germans occupied Athens.

Those states are a little too small or flat out not needed, Crete, Aegan Islands and Athens do not need to be split up into tiny states like that. Thrace and Central Macedonia (personally I would rename both states since they don't quite fit) should have their borders fixed, as well as some of the other states, but the micro states over occupation just isn't needed. I want the game to focus more on historical stuff, and to get more of the borders right, but the occupation borders of Greece should absolutely not be, applied in my opinion, the cons outweigh the pros in this case.
 
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This mod I find fix Balkans borders. Except for a few problem in Greece.


Axis occupation of Greece - Wikipedia

Crete needs to be split into two States. German controlled the left 3/4 of the state.

Part of the Central Macedonia state (the furthest right side province) needs to be broken off and added to Thrace.

The Aegean Islands need to be broken into two states. The Germans occupied most of northern ones.

The province that includes Alexandroupolis needs to be broken off from Thrace and made into its own state. The Germans occupied this province.

Athens should be made its own state. The Germans occupied Athens.
Those states are a little too small or flat out not needed, Crete, Aegan Islands and Athens do not need to be split up into tiny states like that. Thrace and Central Macedonia (personally I would rename both states since they don't quite fit) should have their borders fixed, as well as some of the other states, but the micro states over occupation just isn't needed. I want the game to focus more on historical stuff, and to get more of the borders right, but the occupation borders of Greece should absolutely not be, applied in my opinion, the cons outweigh the pros in this case.
Mr Grizzly hit the hammer on the head there. I stated in the very first part of the thread that I do not want to suggest pointlessly small states for no real reason as Paradox has stated previously that they do not want too many smaller states wherein they clutter the map. Occupations on such a small scale can be shown using troop distribution, they do not need their own states. As for the suggestion of Athens having a state to itself because of a German occupation, Berlin was occupied by 4 nations during the war and there isn't even a Berlin state let alone 2 East/West states. The reason I added the German occupation zone in Macedonia is because A) It aligned with historical Bulgarian irredentist claims, B) It was a large enough occupation to show somewhat accurately and C) The state is already in-game to an extent and only needed minor changes.
 
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