Greek Focus Tree Suggestions - New Balkan and Anatolian States (Implemented In-game For Example)

Greek Focus Tree Suggestions - New Balkan and Anatolian States (Implemented In-game For Example)

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WelshStalker

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Hey guys, I made the suggestion on Wednesday about state changes in addition to @Buzz! 's upcoming Greek focus tree.
I thought it better to show what would be possible with these new states so I went and modded them into the game.

I'm aware of the policy the Hoi4 Dev team has on not wanting to fracture states too small, however I would point to the Moravian region of Czechoslavia's current states and the tri-border of Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland as an example of a region with similar state sizes to those suggested. I believe areas with more contentious borders should be more likely to be split up.
Please consider some Changes in the Balkans and Anatolia alongside the new tree! If not, I will still be looking forwards to it anyway!

Anyway, hopefully this will win you or any Devs over. The states in-game.
Borders of Greece in 1920 just before the Turkish War of Independence and their attempt at full Megali (ft Enosis):
20200912210418_1.jpg


Megali Greece (Minus maybe Pontus/Pontic Greeks), including Northern Epirus:
20200912220938_1.jpg


Bulgarian irredentist claims, including Northern Dobruja separated from Muntenia:
20200912210557_1.jpg


More historically accurate WW2 divisions/occupations (German occupation zone a bit squiffy:
20200912214543_1.jpg


And it still allows for modern borders, with a fixed North Macedonia/Serbia border. (though the Croat Serb border could use some changing):
20200912215016_1.jpg


And for all the guys asking about a Turkish Focus Tree in the Greek thread, borders of the Ottoman Empire roughly 1830-1840 (with the Greek borders post war of Independence):
20200912224753_1.jpg
 
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Nawolith

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Im fully in on this! All possible solutions for all situations!
 
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Chary_

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The only thing I'd add is splitting the Thrace state for WW1 borders, great examples!
 
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vaan24

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In your WW2 partition of Yugoslavia map, I think Italy must have the decisions to create puppet states in Montenegro and Albania
 
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WelshStalker

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For the puppets of Montenegro and Albania, that would require a 1 province state of Prijepolje for Montenegro's extension, I'd personally love to see it myself, as it would also fix an oddly shaped Kosovo, though I don't know to what extent Paradox would be willing to cave to making smaller states, if at all, the attempt is to make a moderate suggestion which wont ask too much against the already stated wishes of the dev team, though Ill see what I can do.
As for splitting West Thrace and East Macedonia, I came to the same conclusion that I didn't want to push for any more smaller states.

Whilst I'm at it, I wanted to make a 1 province state in the Presevo valley to make true Macedonian region borders and to stop some border gore relating to Bulgaria owning Pirot and Vranje but not North Macedonia

Ill see if I cant implement the Prijepolje, Presevo and West Thrace states now as an example though because I would love to see them too.
 
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Bunnytob

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More states also means a hell of a lot more suppression.
 
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Reinner

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More states also means a hell of a lot more suppression.
Even better for Balkans, it's the region where partisans and resistance was at the all the time high during the occupation.
 
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Áurum

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Hey guys, I made the suggestion on Wednesday about state changes in addition to @Buzz! 's upcoming Greek focus tree.
I thought it better to show what would be possible with these new states so I went and modded them into the game.

I'm aware of the policy the Hoi4 Dev team has on not wanting to fracture states too small, however I would point to the Moravian region of Czechoslavia's current states and the tri-border of Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland as an example of a region with similar state sizes to those suggested. I believe areas with more contentious borders should be more likely to be split up.
Please consider some Changes in the Balkans and Anatolia alongside the new tree! If not, I will still be looking forwards to it anyway!

Anyway, hopefully this will win you or any Devs over. The states in-game.
Borders of Greece in 1920 just before the Turkish War of Independence and their attempt at full Megali (ft Enosis):View attachment 625101

Megali Greece (Minus maybe Pontus/Pontic Greeks), including Northern Epirus:
View attachment 625102

Bulgarian irredentist claims, including Northern Dobruja separated from Muntenia:
View attachment 625105

More historically accurate WW2 divisions/occupations (German occupation zone a bit squiffy:
View attachment 625106

And it still allows for modern borders, with a fixed North Macedonia/Serbia border. (though the Croat Serb border could use some changing):
View attachment 625107

And for all the guys asking about a Turkish Focus Tree in the Greek thread, borders of the Ottoman Empire roughly 1830-1840 (with the Greek borders post war of Independence):
View attachment 625138
Agree with everything.

And if Bulgaria gets Dobruja, it could as well get claims/cores on Southern Bessarabia. The majority there was Bulgarian.
 
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WelshStalker

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Added the suggestions of other users into the game to further show examples. Though keep in mind my actual personal suggestions are just the ones in the initial part of the post.

The first one shows Italian Albania and Italian Montenegro. From my previous suggestion I separated and modified a state of the suggested Kosovo state called Prijepolje, this change allows for more historically accurate Albanian-Montenegrin client state borders under Italian occupation at the time. Suggested by @vaan24 though I agree and would love for the suggested Kosovo state should be separated to allow for this, I don't know if the Hoi4 Dev team would be willing to allow the division.:
20200913203621_1.jpg


This second image shows the borders of WW1 Bulgaria suggester by @Chary_ . Again, I would love to see these two divisions too. This shows the Eastern Macedonia state split into Eastern Macedonia and Western Thrace, and with the Presevo province of Pirot and Vranje separated for smoother borders. Though not too accurate in Pirot and Vranje, where the actual territory annexed be turned into a state it wouldn't work as well and ww2 borders wouldn't be possible (You may also note a more accurate Serb Bosnian border and changes to the Croat-Bosnian border and a South Bukovina province added in Romania which is controlled by Austria Hungary):
20200913204212_1.jpg


These borders also allow for an irredentist Greece or North Macedonia to claim the entire region for themselves:
20200913205604_1.jpg


And just for my own personal fun, I allowed for modern borders by adding 2 new states on the Croat Serb border of Baranja and Syrmia and split Italian Istria into 2 provinces of Litoral and Istria, the latter of which is part of modern Croatia and the former a part of Slovenia (bar from Trieste):
20200913203835_1.jpg
 
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Nice, the only suggestion after the latest update to the borders that I have is that if (if not its not a important border change) Albania gets a focus tree someday the north macedonian region with an albanian majority could be split off to allow both countries to claim the region.
 
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Zeprion

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Amazing suggestion that will fix all the "I cannot make this shape" in the Balkans.

The default answer when it comes to the Balkans is: "You can't make perfect borders there because everyone hates each other". But as this topic shows, you can make perfect borders in the Balkans. The problem is one of a lack of knowledge rather than of a Balkan thing.

Everyone in the west seems to know about western history, so they have a clear idea of what the Dutch claimed, what the Germans claimed, what the Italians claimed and what the French claimed at certain points in history. But the same is not true for the Balkans due to not being as interesting as the history of the west. And it's more convenient to disregard it as "they'll always fight each other" than actually learn about the specifics of the region.

I do think Balkans was a place of conflict, but I don't think it was that different from what happened literally everwhere else in the world. The Yugoslav Civil War and the 2nd Balkan War are the main reasons for the "everyone just hates each other" stereotype. The 2nd Balkan War is not so different from World War I, where the good friends Germany and Austria fought each other a few decades ago and Italy was the ally of Germany. And the Yugoslav Civil War was just another multi-national state like USSR where various people wanted independence. The leaders of USSR tired to do everything to keep USSR together, including military action, see Transnistria, until they realised that nothing else could be done. My point is, the Balkans is not different from the rest of the world when it comes to conflict and wars. So good borders like the ones @WelshStalker made are perfectly doable.
 
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Amazing suggestion that will fix all the "I cannot make this shape" in the Balkans.

The default answer when it comes to the Balkans is: "You can't make perfect borders there because everyone hates each other". But as this topic shows, you can make perfect borders in the Balkans. The problem is one of a lack of knowledge rather than of a Balkan thing.

Everyone in the west seems to know about western history, so they have a clear idea of what the Dutch claimed, what the Germans claimed, what the Italians claimed and what the French claimed at certain points in history. But the same is not true for the Balkans due to not being as interesting as the history of the west. And it's more convenient to disregard it as "they'll always fight each other" than actually learn about the specifics of the region.

I do think Balkans was a place of conflict, but I don't think it was that different from what happened literally everwhere else in the world. The Yugoslav Civil War and the 2nd Balkan War are the main reasons for the "everyone just hates each other" stereotype. The 2nd Balkan War is not so different from World War I, where the good friends Germany and Austria fought each other a few decades ago and Italy was the ally of Germany. And the Yugoslav Civil War was just another multi-national state like USSR where various people wanted independence. The leaders of USSR tired to do everything to keep USSR together, including military action, see Transnistria, until they realised that nothing else could be done. My point is, the Balkans is not different from the rest of the world when it comes to conflict and wars. So good borders like the ones @WelshStalker made are perfectly doable.
Yeah it's just a matter of "will Paradox make states that small?" Which they could seeing as the suggested states A.) Aren't that small B.) promote more resistance in the Balkans which is not only more accurate but also means the Balkans isn't a free land grab and C.) Give options for whatever people want. Modern Day, Wishful Thinking Modern Day, WW1 and WW2. These suggestions are pretty awesome
 
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XselenS

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YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!

We definitely need better border options in HOI. There are to many islands grouped to mainland states for example.

Perhaps in a large DLC we will see an overhaul of the states mechanic which allows for drawing borders by fracturing a state, creating a new state as well as the decoupling of islands from mainland states.
 
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Oh my god yes.

if this is done, we can create any kind of Balkan borders as any Balkan nation. For any time period.
 
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Zeprion

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Yeah it's just a matter of "will Paradox make states that small?" Which they could seeing as the suggested states A.) Aren't that small B.) promote more resistance in the Balkans which is not only more accurate but also means the Balkans isn't a free land grab and C.) Give options for whatever people want. Modern Day, Wishful Thinking Modern Day, WW1 and WW2. These suggestions are pretty awesome
They aren't that small, there's plenty of regions in the game with only 2 or 3 provinces. Your map is just perfect. The only thing that could be scrapped, in my opinion, is that small 1 province region above North Macedonia required for irredentist North Macedonia. It can be incorportated into the small Nis region and make it a 3 provinces region that will be part of Yugoslavia but can become part of Serbia and Bulgaria.

This is if they don't want to have regions of 1 province, as that's the only region of 1 province as far as I can tell. Other than that, everything else will destroy the possibility of creating either historical older or modern day borders.

I just spotted a problem: the South Bukovina - North Bukovina border is supposed to be more smooth. Before 1940, Bukovina was never split, so there is no reason for a split different from the current day Romania - Ukraine border. There is of course the small region of Herta that was annexed by USSR too despite not being part of Bukovina or Bessarabia, but the base game already includes Herta in North Bukovina.

This of course, raises a problem, do you prioritize the 1940 borders and keep Herta part of North Bukovina, or do you prioritize the Austro-Hungarian borders and keep Herta part of Moldavia so that Austria can have all of Bukovina but without Herta? I think it's best to do the former. Unless you want to create another 1 province region, better prioritize the 1940 borders for clean borders in the historical game.

While you are at it, could I suggest to create good borders for both Transnistira? The one Romania occupied in 1940 and the one the Soviets established that later became part of the Republic of Moldova.
The Romanian Occupation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_Governorate
The Soviet Puppet merged with Moldova: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria
 
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WelshStalker

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Thank you lads, I appreciate all the feedback! I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Paradox team make of it, of course that is if they have seen it at all or if they respond at all! I don't want to push anything to the devs, I just want to make suggestions I think people alongside myself would love to see in-game to enhance their experience further.

I hope some of my suggestions are taken onboard. Having seen the latest Dev Diary, it is clear that 3 of them are already in-game, most likely before the suggestions were made, those being Kosovo and Pirot & Vranje though Kosovo is not to the suggested shape for historical accuracy, it is a weird blend of modern border and historical border which makes neither possible. And Northern Epirus (Incidentally shown in the Greek Dev Diary) seems a tad thinner than the claims of the Greek government post WW2 and the occupied area in the aftermath of the 2nd Balkan War. That being said, Pirot & Vranje is exactly as suggested! Though without Western North Macedonia for full historical accuracy and aligning of the border.

1600310634541.png
1600311186116.png
1600306193390.png


I personally believe it better to follow a contentious border approach. In that the more contentious a border, the more likely there will be more and smaller states there. That way you don't have the whole map covered in small states (A fear of Paradox), but the more volatile an area, such as the Balkans with its many over-lapping claims, the more likely a state is to be found there. Meaning a nation such as the UK will barely have any small states (Bar from overseas such as Gibraltar) due to the fact that the borders of all England, Scotland and Wales are ancient and fairly stagnant, with no need to account for a possible fluid border (Bar from Northern Ireland, though there are no over-lapping claims, just both claiming the region). Where as the borders in the Southern Balkans are very likely to be split into many smaller states, due in part to them being a part of or having no less than 4 major wars in the span of 30 years (1st Balkan War, 2nd Balkan War, WW1 and WW2)

I have been doing some research on the post war territorial claims of the Greek Government and certain pressure groups. It is clear that large parts of the government wished to acquire certain territories in the coming peace treaties. I came to the conclusion that it is important to have Northern Epirus in-game to represent Greek claims on what was at the time, Italian territory inhabited mainly by Greeks. But also further control into Northern Thrace, controlled by Bulgaria, ranging from full control of Thrace to control of the strategically important and highly defensive Rhodopes Mountains to better defend themselves in the event of another conflict with Bulgaria, as was the concern of the Government at the time.
"Officially, Greece claimed the lands of Northern Epirus (from Albania), Northern Thrace (from Bulgaria) and the Dodecanese from Italy, but gained only the Dodecanese, as the new communist-controlled governments of Albania and Bulgaria had Soviet support. " As per the Wikipedia page on the Military history of Greece in WW2 and Cambridge university's " 'Strategic frontiers': Debating the Borders of the Post-Second World War Balkans" (section "The Greek-Bulgarian Confrontation")

1600307318825.png

(This being a map made for the claims by the Committee, Justice for Greece (Washington, D.C., March 1946). )

As per the wishes of the Greek government at the time, I added one more province, called Rhodopes. This not only allowed for Post war Greek Claims, but also allowed for an East Rumelia region to be better defined and allow for an Ottoman empire at a later period, roughly 1900ish.
Greece should all its territorial desires be met post-war, corresponding to the above image:
20200917032347_1.jpg


Using the new states since the first post, the Ottoman Empire around the year 1900 with the Bulgarian client state of Eastern Rumelia shown as well, hopefully this image will be enough to stop the spamming for a Turkish Focus tree for now :p:
20200917033752_1.jpg


I'm assuming the next Dev Diary is going to be on Turkey, in which case I also have some border and state suggestions for them, but for the meanwhile I hope these suggestions prove useful to at least someone! I'm moving to university in the next 2-3 days and will be a bit busy for a while, meaning I might miss the Dev Diary dropping sadly, and might be a bit busy and forget about it.

Only the first post was to include my official suggestions, though the new Rhodopes state, West Thrace being separated from East Macedonia and the shape of Eastern Rumelia I will add to my official suggestions as well now, meaning the states would look more like this:
1600311937569.png
 
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Mr.Grizzly

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Very good suggestion, lots of nice border options and it fits many possible outcomes, brilliant, sadly this means the chances of PDX taking this are, probably nonexistent
 

Áurum

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Thank you lads, I appreciate all the feedback! I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Paradox team make of it, of course that is if they have seen it at all or if they respond at all! I don't want to push anything to the devs, I just want to make suggestions I think people alongside myself would love to see in-game to enhance their experience further.

I hope some of my suggestions are taken onboard. Having seen the latest Dev Diary, it is clear that 3 of them are already in-game, most likely before the suggestions were made, those being Kosovo and Pirot & Vranje though Kosovo is not to the suggested shape for historical accuracy, it is a weird blend of modern border and historical border which makes neither possible. And Northern Epirus (Incidentally shown in the Greek Dev Diary) seems a tad thinner than the claims of the Greek government post WW2 and the occupied area in the aftermath of the 2nd Balkan War. That being said, Pirot & Vranje is exactly as suggested! Though without Western North Macedonia for full historical accuracy and aligning of the border.

View attachment 627538View attachment 627542View attachment 627519

I personally believe it better to follow a contentious border approach. In that the more contentious a border, the more likely there will be more and smaller states there. That way you don't have the whole map covered in small states (A fear of Paradox), but the more volatile an area, such as the Balkans with its many over-lapping claims, the more likely a state is to be found there. Meaning a nation such as the UK will barely have any small states (Bar from overseas such as Gibraltar) due to the fact that the borders of all England, Scotland and Wales are ancient and fairly stagnant, with no need to account for a possible fluid border (Bar from Northern Ireland, though there are no over-lapping claims, just both claiming the region). Where as the borders in the Southern Balkans are very likely to be split into many smaller states, due in part to them being a part of or having no less than 4 major wars in the span of 30 years (1st Balkan War, 2nd Balkan War, WW1 and WW2)

I have been doing some research on the post war territorial claims of the Greek Government and certain pressure groups. It is clear that large parts of the government wished to acquire certain territories in the coming peace treaties. I came to the conclusion that it is important to have Northern Epirus in-game to represent Greek claims on what was at the time, Italian territory inhabited mainly by Greeks. But also further control into Northern Thrace, controlled by Bulgaria, ranging from full control of Thrace to control of the strategically important and highly defensive Rhodopes Mountains to better defend themselves in the event of another conflict with Bulgaria, as was the concern of the Government at the time.
"Officially, Greece claimed the lands of Northern Epirus (from Albania), Northern Thrace (from Bulgaria) and the Dodecanese from Italy, but gained only the Dodecanese, as the new communist-controlled governments of Albania and Bulgaria had Soviet support. " As per the Wikipedia page on the Military history of Greece in WW2 and Cambridge university's " 'Strategic frontiers': Debating the Borders of the Post-Second World War Balkans" (section "The Greek-Bulgarian Confrontation")

View attachment 627522
(This being a map made for the claims by the Committee, Justice for Greece (Washington, D.C., March 1946). )

As per the wishes of the Greek government at the time, I added one more province, called Rhodopes. This not only allowed for Post war Greek Claims, but also allowed for an East Rumelia region to be better defined and allow for an Ottoman empire at a later period, roughly 1900ish.
Greece should all its territorial desires be met post-war, corresponding to the above image:View attachment 627536

Using the new states since the first post, the Ottoman Empire around the year 1900 with the Bulgarian client state of Eastern Rumelia shown as well, hopefully this image will be enough to stop the spamming for a Turkish Focus tree for now :p:
View attachment 627537

I'm assuming the next Dev Diary is going to be on Turkey, in which case I also have some border and state suggestions for them, but for the meanwhile I hope these suggestions prove useful to at least someone! I'm moving to university in the next 2-3 days and will be a bit busy for a while, meaning I might miss the Dev Diary dropping sadly, and might be a bit busy and forget about it.

Only the first post was to include my official suggestions, though the new Rhodopes state, West Thrace being separated from East Macedonia and the shape of Eastern Rumelia I will add to my official suggestions as well now, meaning the states would look more like this:
View attachment 627547
The Kosovo state devs added looks like modern Kosovo but without Serb-majority areas, so only Albanian areas. It's an improvement from what we had before but the borders of WW2 Albania aren't achievable yet. I agree with all the other suggestions. Mods don't care about adding as many states as needed, and vanilla itself has a small state for Zaolzie. Although I don't find that Rhodopes state necessary, its addition would always be good.
 

Zeprion

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Since this is already a massive topic about border suggestions, I'll add mine here, a little bit to the north-east:

This is the shape of present-day Moldova:


This is the northern part that Romania lost to USSR and is today part of Ukraine:


This is the region of Transnistria that Romania occupied in 1940 - 1944:


I propose these changes:

The blue lines are 2 different choices with pros and cons each.

From left to right:
- Hungary will be split by rivers.
- South Bukovina will also exist so that Austria-Hungary can form its old borders. I did my best but my red line isn't exactly right.
- The blue lines, with the choice from the left you can form historical Austria-Hungary but can't form 1945 Moldova. I prefer the left blue line because Austria-Hungary is more played than Moldova.
- Transnistira has correct borders.
- The long border between Romania and USSR is the part of Transnitria that was given to Moldova in 1945, it should be a Moldovan core, the red line isn't exactly right.
- And I made all the Soviet Borders on the Dnieper river.
 
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