Expel Minorities - Changes

[Sete]

On the topic of Iberia:
I understand that one might think that Portugal might need a few buffs, and have some more meaningful national ideas.

The Hill where i will die on.

@Lightwell Portugal Naval Artillery was superior to whatever local navies had.

"Circa 1540, the Javanese, always alert for new weapons found the newly arrived Portuguese weaponry superior to that of the locally made variants. Majapahit-era cetbang cannons were further improved and used in the Demak Sultanate period during the Demak invasion of Portuguese Malacca."

"Duarte Barbosa ca. 1510 said that the inhabitants of Java are great masters in casting artillery and very good artillerymen. They make many one-pounder cannons (cetbang or rentaka), long muskets, and other fire-works. Every place are considered excellent in casting artillery, and in the knowledge of using it.In 1513, the Javanese fleet led by Patih Yunus sailed to attack Portuguese Malacca "with much artillery made in Java, for the Javanese are skilled in founding and casting, and in all works in iron, over and above what they have in India"."

Back on topic of expelling minorities, losing Dev makes sense, after all you are sending away tax paying population.

For example in Portugal the lack of population to work in the farm lands due to going to asia or brazil created a few issues.

 

[Lightwell]

"Circa 1540, the Javanese, always alert for new weapons found the newly arrived Portuguese weaponry superior to that of the locally made variants. Majapahit-era cetbang cannons were further improved and used in the Demak Sultanate period during the Demak invasion of Portuguese Malacca."

Fair. I might've gotten that one backwards because of the notes on the Fall of Malacca. However, this just makes our inability to purchase technologies all the more questionable, as local Europeans were known to be willing to divulge that sort of information in exchange for cash.

 

[Esben_DRK]

As its far worse to do it, the AI will not do it as much.

Will this mean that colonising conquerors (Often Spain, Portugal and Britain) will refrain from making Muslim Moroccan (Or Irish Catholic) colonial nations? Seeing Brazil and the Caribbean turn Muslim because the CN was made partially by expelled minorities is jarring and immersion-destroying.

 

[Lightwell]

Will this mean that colonising conquerors (Often Spain, Portugal and Britain) will refrain from making Muslim Moroccan (Or Irish Catholic) colonial nations? Seeing Brazil and the Caribbean turn Muslim because the CN was made partially by expelled minorities is jarring and immersion-destroying.

The worst part is the fact that Catholic CNs can't afford to have even a single Islamic province. If they do, the Muslims there will constantly be trying to forcefully convert the CN, weakening the nation and putting it in debt, but a weakened CN can easily fall to Christian zealots. Malian Brazil can't decide what religion it wants to follow.

 

[Dakka]

You sure its not your own nationalism and feel that your nation should be stronger.

Yes, my rampant nationalism as an Anglo-German descendant living in California has led me to believe that my native homeland of Spain should be stronger.

I never said anything about buffing Spain. I said that England is overpowered, which it is, as it starts the game as one of the strongest nations when in reality it didn't gain traction as a world power until the Seven Years War. I also said that things in Spain are silly: cities in the wrong place, a bonus for expelling minorities to the New World which was against royal decree, a bonus for lowering attrition called "The Grand Armada", Enrique IV being a drooling moron, etc. You're more than welcome to look into the thread in my signature if you want to see the various issues I have with the expansion.

Don't jump to calling someone a nationalist simply because they disagree with you. It makes you look ignorant.

 

[Pbhuh]

Yes, my rampant nationalism as an Anglo-German descendant living in California has led me to believe that my native homeland of Spain should be stronger.

I never said anything about buffing Spain. I said that England is overpowered, which it is, as it starts the game as one of the strongest nations when in reality it didn't gain traction as a world power until the Seven Years War. I also said that things in Spain are silly: cities in the wrong place, a bonus for expelling minorities to the New World which was against royal decree, a bonus for lowering attrition called "The Grand Armada", Enrique IV being a drooling moron, etc. You're more than welcome to look into the thread in my signature if you want to see the various issues I have with the expansion.

Don't jump to calling someone a nationalist simply because they disagree with you. It makes you look ignorant.

Ok, first of all this has to end. The thread derailment is becoming a problem.

Golden Century isnt perfect and i think many agree on that.

But people need to gain some perspective.

The nations that got a content pack are pretty much OP.

Spain is no exception. Ive just been playing an Iron Man Spain and sure there were some annoyances. The fact is. Britain is weak.

Yeah. They are able to colonize just as fast it seems and their navy feels unfair.

But their armies are weak. Gettting wrecked every battle only surviving sometimes.

I wanna see the 1.30 patch cause I feel it will change everything.

But spanish and english missions are the real issue. Getting free personal unions, etc. England and Britain are OP, but so is Spain.

The only other nations that matter generally are Brandenburg, Russia and Ottomans. With Austria only doing well with Hungary and maybe the lowlands, which they generally loose anyway.

I can list you many nations that are way more deserving of fixing than Spain right now. Portugal being probably one of them.

If you think Spain looks bad with things that are wrong, a historical etc. You should pay more attention to the rest of the world.

And here in lies the issue.

Golden Century is like a lighting deflector. Everything is wrong with it and everything needs to be fixed.

Look, it was a little silly to imply you may be a nationalist, but generally its the same atmosphere.

Spain right now for better or for worse "functions". Its not bad at all, plenty of errors but it works and is powerful in the players hands.

 

[Lightwell]

Yeah. They are able to colonize just as fast it seems and their navy feels unfair.

But their armies are weak. Gettting wrecked every battle only surviving sometimes.

That sounds like a balancing feature. If their armies were able to keep pace with continental armies, you'd have to work past the world's strongest naval power's navy, land units on the coast, and manage to thrash an army that could legitimately give you terrible pains.

 

[Pbhuh]

That sounds like a balancing feature. If their armies were able to keep pace with continental armies, you'd have to work past the world's strongest naval power's navy, land units on the coast, and manage to thrash an army that could legitimately give you terrible pains.

And given the naval changes in 1.30 it will be much less of a problem.

This is the point, yeah, sometimes nations are strong in a certain patch, but I would love to see how they perform in 1.30 with so many other nations getting strong mission trees and England no longer being too strong with their navy when the other player has at least twice the size.

 

[Lightwell]

What's 1.30 doing to the English navy?

 

[Pbhuh]

What's 1.30 doing to the English navy?

Nothing, they are changing how engagement width and naval combat works, and have explained that this affects things like the british/english navy.

There was a dev diary about it. It has to do with the fact that navies sink instead of disengaging after loosing morale, and because british naval morale is way better, other nations will loose much more of their navies at the moment so in 1.30 after losing a naval engagement you will have more ships left.

 

[Lightwell]

Nothing, they are changing how engagement width and naval combat works, and have explained that this affects things like the british/english navy.

There was a dev diary about it. It has to do with the fact that navies sink instead of disengaging after loosing morale, and because british naval morale is way better, other nations will loose much more of their navies at the moment so in 1.30 after losing a naval engagement you will have more ships left.

Cool.

 

[MateuszS]

How about this:
1. Original province get dissent reduction as well as culture and religion change reduction AND random chance to flip to your religion and culture group.
2. Destination province gets a bit dev, a bit unrest AND random chance to change culture and religion into those of the expelled.
This way, it would still be minority expulsion, but it wouldn't be as aggressive as currently.

 

[navaluiki]

How about this:
1. Original province get dissent reduction as well as culture and religion change reduction AND random chance to flip to your religion and culture group.
2. Destination province gets a bit dev, a bit unrest AND random chance to change culture and religion into those of the expelled.
This way, it would still be minority expulsion, but it wouldn't be as aggressive as currently.

This sounds way better, I'd also suggest that this chance of culture flipping should be weighted by the development of said province.

 

[AngelRay]

Just for my pure curiosity: is the feature considered too strong or too weak currently?

Me personaly as Spain playing with GC for the first time, I find it fun...

(ps: I get that some people are not liking the idea because ahistorical. I let the pro's be pros -- I'm not and do not care much for history --, but for me since it's a game, I only care if it's something I use in game. If it's "historical" it's better than not, but before being historical or not, I like the things i use to be fun to play with)

 

[grommile]

Just for my pure curiosity: is the feature considered too strong or too weak currently?

It's considered stupid and terrible because it's broken from both a gameplay perspective and a historicality perspective.

• Catholic CNs don't deal entirely gracefully with being force-fed Maghrebi Muslims.
  
• Castilianizing the whole of Naples and the Netherlands and the Maghreb wipes out the cores of nations that Castile/Spain could otherwise be forced to release if it lost a war.
• Countries that made mass expulsions of protestants can't expel protestants because they aren't colonizers.
• Catholic colonizers that didn't allow non-Catholics to colonize are filling their colonies with Muslims and the occasional Protestant.

So... I don't care about your fun here

 

[AngelRay]

Wow, what an attitude you have.
Thanks for nothing. (There are better posts than your to understand the historical problem. But I have seen nowhere the gameplay problem...)

 

[regne_valencia]

Expelling minorities is useless without percentage pie charts of culture and religion.And devs are not going to introduce it when the game is very close to finish his cycle.

This historical situations can be simulated by events, Spain only did two times in the eu4 time line.

Event 1 -expelling jews: -Yes= big penalty with taxes modifiers (best economic advisors were jews)
-No= penalty in stability (the true is that they was kicked out because the people want it, the catholic kings were happy with jews)

Event 2 -expelling moors:-Yes = big penalty in production, specially in aragon crown provinces like Valencia
No = More probability off having revolts like alpujarras,specially if your country is at war with Otoman empire or any other muslim country

Expelling minorities problem solved in spain with this events, i guess can be the same solution for other countries, dont need a feature,with events is ok

Why not remove this usseles feature and add another exclusive feature to GC owners?

GC was made to flavor Iberia, why not add a government for Spain called Monarquía Hispana Foral ?, something like a centralized and decentralized path for Spain as they are doing for the SIR.

You can choose to have a decentralized country like It was in real history, with every kingdom having its "fueros", or you can try to centralize as they tried with the reforms of the Count Duke Olivares or the "new plant" reforms.

Each path has its advantages and disadvantages and you choose, also some historical events will be welcome when the centralized path starts, the centralized path will be much better if you can finish the process, but this not will be easy, it will be very risky follow it, this must to be a hard choice for the player with many revolts and problems if you follow this path.

But if you handle the situation, you will have a stronger country when you finish the process.Also taking this path makes your country more vulnerable to enemy attacks if they attack you while you are centralizing your country and maybe your country can finish splitted like it happened with Portugal and was near to happen also in other spanish kingdoms and regions

Also, alternative events can be interesting for decentralized path

Sorry for my english,vey difficult to me explain that feature

 

[grommile]

Wow, what an attitude you have.
Thanks for nothing. (There are better posts than your to understand the historical problem. But I have seen nowhere the gameplay problem...)

I cited two gameplay points, neither of which fits into the simplistic "too strong" or "too weak" split you were asking about.

 

[navaluiki]

Expelling minorities is useless without percentage pie charts of culture and religion.And devs are not going to introduce it when the game is very close to finish his cicle.

This historical situations can be simulated by events, Spain only did two times in the eu4 time line.

Event 1 -expelling jews: -Yes= big penalty with taxes modifiers (best economic advisors were jews)
-No= penalty in stability (the true is that they was kicked out because the people want it, the catholic kings were happy with jews)

Event 2 -expelling moors:-Yes = big penalty in production, specially in aragon crown provinces like Valencia
No = More probability off having revolts like alpujarras,specially if your country is at war with Otoman empire or any other muslim country

Expelling minorities problem solved in spain with this events, i guess can be the same solution for other countries, dont need a feature,with events is ok

Why not remove this usseles feature and add another exclusive feature to GC owners?

GC was made to flavor Iberia, why not add a government for Spain called Monarquía Hispana Foral ?, something like a centralized and decentralized path for Spain as they are doing for the SIR.

You can choose to have a decentralized country like It was in real history, with every kingdom having its "fueros", or you can try to centralize as they tried with the reforms of the Count Duke Olivares or the "new plant" reforms.

Each path has its advantages and disadvantages and you choose, also some historical events will be welcome when the centralized path starts, the centralized path will be much better if you can finish the process, but this not will be easy, it will be very risky follow it, this must to be a hard choice for the player with many revolts and problems if you follow this path.

But if you handle the situation, you will have a stronger country when you finish the process.Also taking this path makes your country more vulnerable to enemy attacks if they attack you while you are centralizing your country and maybe your country can finish splitted like it happened with Portugal and was near to happen also in other spanish kingdoms and regions

Also, alternative events can be interesting for decentralized path

Sorry for my english,vey difficult to me explain that feature

If I'm honest, when the immersion pack was announced for Spain, one of the first ideas that came to my mind is that there would be new mechanics to represent the composite monarchy system Spain was and how you could choose how it could evolve into something more feudal or more centralised (like it happened in real life).

 

[gronak]

Will AI convert cultures again as they would occasionally do prior to golden century? I now play with it turned off, and the AI never culture converts provinces anymore. It is a shame to see as it added to the immersion for me.

Then on the topic of cultures, Russia and the steppes really needs a quick look at. From what I have seen, the European steppes seems to heavily cripple russia due to the religious and cultural differences when really the steppes weren't really populated and were colonised by Russia (towns settled). Perhaps events could be made to help Russia in this area.