Europa Universalis IV – Developer Diary 12 - Dominium Maris Baltici

[xereck]

When Sweden lost control of the island due to a revolt nothing was done about it, it was simply not considered valuable enough. So to say that it played an important role is to exaggerate.

Obviously valuable enough to conquer it in the first place though, and I'm pretty sure the reason why it wasn't taken back after the revolt was due to Swedish forces being spread thin, having to deal with lost territory in both Norway, Germany and Denmark

I don't see what would make Bornholm less important than Åland (which is in EUIV), Gotland or Øsel for that matter

 

[Skyhunteren]

When Sweden lost control of the island due to a revolt nothing was done about it, it was simply not considered valuable enough. So to say that it played an important role is to exaggerate.

After Denmark lost the rest of Scania to Sweden they build a fleetbase on the island to better control the baltic sea. It was one of the most succeful fleetbases during the wars betwen Denmark and England. Denmark used it as one of it main bases for privateering against the English tradefleet.

It is not a rich or big island, but it is tactical well placed especialy with the new trading system.

 

[Baneslave]

In response to the people showing modern maps there is one slightly huge problem with those maps , they don't show how landmasses used to sit , and make no mistake landmasses have shifted in the past few hundred years . so showing current maps doesn't help.

If you mean continental drift, then I am pretty sure that effect is negligible.

 

[Kimberly]

If you mean continental drift, then I am pretty sure that effect is negligible.

You're quite right. 10 centimers per year is a high estimate for a continental plate to move; most move a lot slower. Over 568 years (2012 - 1444), that amounts to 5680 centimers, or 0.0568 kilometers. For reference, the distance between Lisbon and Virginia Beach (a more or less straight line) is 5762 kilometers.

He is somewhat correct, though, in that there are areas where the land has changed significantly. Notably, the Netherlands is quite a bit larger today than in 1444, as they are very fond of reclamation projects.

 

[Blaaat]

Again as pointed before the problem is the map projection, google maps and this game uses mercator projection which means that areas closer to the poles appear a lot larger than they actually are. Go zoom out in google maps and you'll see (hilarious) anomalies such as Greenland being huge (larger than Africa which is of course not true), Finland is larger than India, Scandinavia is over half the length of Africa and in terms of area Spain is larger than Sweden yet in mercator Spain fits only in lower Sweden.

 

[Captain Gars]

The Swedes also got lucky in 1658: The Belts were frozen - which is really rare -

But not every king or general would have had the guts to risk their entire army by doing so. It's not like it was risk-free to march across the ice.

and if I remember correctly the Swedish king during the peace negotiation in Roskilde were informed a day or two before the Danish king that a Polish and Brandenburgian army of some 21.000 men were on their way to Denmark. Peace was then signed before the Danish king got the news.
I think it could have turned out differently if the Danish king had got the news simultaneously with the Swedish king, since Skåne actually wasn't occupied by the Swedes.

You remember incorrectly. A Polish-Brandenburg-Austrian army had already re-conquered most of Jylland, but couldn't move on to Fyn as the Swedish navy were blocking the strait.

 

[Avernite]

But not every king or general would have had the guts to risk their entire army by doing so. It's not like it was risk-free to march across the ice.

That argues just as hard for Swedish luck in-game, its just luck in the monarch roll rather than only in the climate. Still doesn't, to me, explain why Sweden should have a larger chance than Denmark to be the strongest of those two.

 

[Gustav91]

That argues just as hard for Swedish luck in-game, its just luck in the monarch roll rather than only in the climate. Still doesn't, to me, explain why Sweden should have a larger chance than Denmark to be the strongest of those two.

The real reasons Charles X crossed over the ice was that they had waited for the dutch fleet so they could pass over the strait so setting up winter camp in Jylland wasn't a part of the plan. When the ice made it possible to move he did the unexpected, crossed over the ice. It was in the Dutch and English interest that Skåne should be Swedish and Sjaelland Danish so no one had full control over the passage.

 

[Sun_Wu]

The real reasons Charles X crossed over the ice was that they had waited for the dutch fleet so they could pass over the strait so setting up winter camp in Jylland wasn't a part of the plan. When the ice made it possible to move he did the unexpected, crossed over the ice. It was in the Dutch and English interest that Skåne should be Swedish and Sjaelland Danish so no one had full control over the passage.

In other words they wanted to render the Öresundstullen unenforceable

 

[Sute]{h]

In other words they wanted to render the Öresundstullen unenforceable

Perhaps... still it was enforced by Denmark until 1857, despite the Danish loss of Skåne in 1658. So Swedish control of Skåne hardly mattered in that regard. So while it is a nice theory it doesn't quite add up. The only country benefiting from Swedish control of Skåne was Sweden, since Sweden was exempted from the toll.

 

[RhoDaZZ]

That argues just as hard for Swedish luck in-game, its just luck in the monarch roll rather than only in the climate. Still doesn't, to me, explain why Sweden should have a larger chance than Denmark to be the strongest of those two.

Besides gut, he had the help and assessment of the military engineer Erik Dahlbergh. The relative strength of Denmark-Norway vs. Sweden from 1444 onwards would be a changing thing, but in EUIV I suspect the national traditions will play a large role. Summarily, Sweden has on her side a slightly larger population, a state that can be started from scratch and made up to date without overstepping royal authority as much, comparably huge mining deposit activities (copper and iron mostly) - allowing for much larger weapons and armour production, in conjunction with specialisation in related professions, a country with terrain and climate that is extremely difficult to conquer, and a stronger trade economy, if we set aside the toll. Denmark-Norway has on its side a continental placement that makes new inventions spread a little bit faster, a more developed ship-building craftsmanship and naval warfaring culture, the immensely profitable sound toll (habitually used for mercenaries and naval armaments), a larger food production, and direct access to the Atlantic.

 

[Sotof]

After Denmark lost the rest of Scania to Sweden they build a fleetbase on the island to better control the baltic sea. It was one of the most succeful fleetbases during the wars betwen Denmark and England. Denmark used it as one of it main bases for privateering against the English tradefleet.

It is not a rich or big island, but it is tactical well placed especialy with the new trading system.

This.

 

[Red_warning]

Obviously valuable enough to conquer it in the first place though, and I'm pretty sure the reason why it wasn't taken back after the revolt was due to Swedish forces being spread thin, having to deal with lost territory in both Norway, Germany and Denmark

I don't see what would make Bornholm less important than Åland (which is in EUIV), Gotland or Øsel for that matter

Åland has a strategic value, the shortest way from Finland to Sweden proper is through Åland. I can see that Bornholm has a strategic value after Skåne is lost, but the island is rather useless if you already control land on the peninsula. And Sweden didn't actually conquer the island, it just sorta went along with the deal

 

[Red_warning]

If you mean continental drift, then I am pretty sure that effect is negligible.

Sweden is rising from the sea, 1 cm per year. Now, that might not sound like a lot, but if we think in terms of hundreds of years (600 in this case!) then the impact on is quite significant!

 

[Sotof]

Åland has a strategic value, the shortest way from Finland to Sweden proper is through Åland. I can see that Bornholm has a strategic value after Skåne is lost, but the island is rather useless if you already control land on the peninsula. And Sweden didn't actually conquer the island, it just sorta went along with the deal

Yeah, but consider if you are the Hansa, England, Holland, Russia, Norway, Teutonic Order, Poland, etc. who are trying to solidify trade or naval supremacy in the region. Wouldn't Bornholm be an excellent spot to do so? It is "insignificant" enough for Denmark to write it away in a peace deal if they lose a war, and sits in a very strategic position in the Baltic.

 

[Red_warning]

Yeah, but consider if you are the Hansa, England, Holland, Russia, Norway, Teutonic Order, Poland, etc. who are trying to solidify trade or naval supremacy in the region. Wouldn't Bornholm be an excellent spot to do so? It is "insignificant" enough for Denmark to write it away in a peace deal if they lose a war, and sits in a very strategic position in the Baltic.

Fair point, I imagine some trading nations with strong navies would be very interested in controlling the islands in the Baltic.

 

[alvaro]

Welcome to the most important development diary on Europa Universalis IV as we go into detail about the most popular country to play – Sweden!

brilliant!
even though we may not have the breaking news we all enjoy to go berserk about how disappointed we are p) I must say that having diaries this anticipated and speaking in more detail about countries is very nice to find every friday and makes the wait much easier. :happy:

 

[nett40]

Åland has a strategic value, the shortest way from Finland to Sweden proper is through Åland. I can see that Bornholm has a strategic value after Skåne is lost, but the island is rather useless if you already control land on the peninsula. And Sweden didn't actually conquer the island, it just sorta went along with the deal

In EU3 the Åland Isles are part of the Stockholm province, so when mainland Finland is conquered by Russia in 1800, then the Åland Isles remains Swedish. Although the isles also were conquered by Russia IRL.

The same could be said about Bornholm, the island was ceeded with the rest of Eastern Denmark to Sweden in the peace treaty of Roskilde in 1658. However, it rebelled and rejoined Denmark with the peace treaty of Copenhagen in 1660. But since the island in EU3 was part of the Skåne province, it would remain Swedish in the game.

The Southern part of the Scandinavian peninsula was the main battleground in the many Dano-Swedish wars. This area included Bohuslen, The Danish Isles, Skåne, Halland, Blekinge, Älvsborg, Västregötland, Småland (Kalmar), Öland, Gotland and Bornholm. Akershus (Christiania) and Trøndelag were also important battlegrounds in many wars.

However, the Northern arctic regions of Greenland (Vestbygden - Eiriksfjord), Iceland (Reykavik - Akurey), Nordlandet (Finnmark - Hålogaland) and Norrland (Lappland - Västerbotten) were not important battlegrounds. The arctic regions should be large barren inhospitable provinces with some sort of population and army penalty. With larger northern arctic provinces there would be room to add more provinces in the more populated southern areas of Scandinavia. Thus keeping the delicate balance of the game.

Btw. IRL Greenland was terra incognito for almost the entire EU4 timeline (only colonized with a few tradingposts and missions in 1789).

 

[Red_warning]

However, the Northern arctic regions of Greenland (Vestbygden - Eiriksfjord), Iceland (Reykavik - Akurey), Nordlandet (Finnmark - Hålogaland) and Norrland (Lappland - Västerbotten) were not important battlegrounds. The arctic regions should be large barren inhospitable provinces with some sort of population and army penalty.

Hey now, Västerbotten isn't really that cold. It's +4 C in Umeå right now and we can consider ourselves lucky if we get snow for Christmas

I hope they don't use the CKII terrain, which described Västerbotten as Arctic and Lappland as forest! It should be the other way around.

 

[Captain Gars]

In EU3 the Åland Isles are part of the Stockholm province, so when mainland Finland is conquered by Russia in 1800, then the Åland Isles remains Swedish. Although the isles also were conquered by Russia IRL.

The same could be said about Bornholm

I didn't add Åland to better represent historical peace treaties but because of its strategic location due to the strait between Finland and Sweden. Bornholm has no such importance in the game.