Eu2Vic: Design Discussion

[Chaingun]

Here anything related to the design of the converter should be discussed that is not covered in another thread. I can as an example say that new coming features manufactory to factory conversions and similar things ought to be discussed here in order for me as I programmer to pick it up.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

I had some thoughts on POPs. Currently the default POP districbution is used. It would be nice if the POP distribution depended on how developped the EU province was. Something like this

POP type		Aristo	Officer	Clergy	Capit.	Clerks	Crafts	Soldier	Lab.	Farmer	Slaves
Default	province	2.5	0	0	5	0	0	2.5	90	0	0
Tax collector		0	0	0	0	0	+5	0	-5	0	0
Chief Judge		0	0	0	0	+5	0	0	-5	0	0
Governor		0	0	0	0	0	+5	0	-5	0	0
Conscript Centre	0	+2.5	-2.5	0	0	0	+5	-5	0	0
Shipyard		0	+2.5	-2.5	0	0	0	+5	-5	0	0
Manufactory		-2.5	0	0	+2.5	+5	+5	0	-10	0	0
Fort level 3/4		0	0	0	0	0	0	+2.5	-2.5	0	0
Fort level 5/6		0	0	0	0	0	0	+2.5	-2.5	0	0
Fully develloped prov.	0	5	0	2.5	10	15	17.5	50	0	0

All POPs would be of the EU2 province religion and culture, less diverse POP distribution
Labourers are automatically converted to farmers depending on the RGO
Slaves could be added depending on the location of the province (America, Africa etc.) and the RGO (Cotton, rubber etc.)

The distribution can than be multiplied by the EU2 province size to get POP sizes.

 

[Chaingun]

That is quite an idea yes. I believe the strength in it is that once we start to convert manufactories to factories, countries that are technologically backward in Victoria although perhaps alternatively historically strong in an EU2 game would get their correct level of sophistication. The negative thing of course will be the impossibility for population numbers to coindice with the realistic world's population. The current approach of using the default POP is much more simple as well; I'd say we stay with the current system until we have converted the factories. If we start to see huge numbers of empty factories in Asia etc. then I think we should start planning for adding a technologically adjusted demographic system.

 

[Chaingun]

- Separated as a new post due to a time leap and required attention: -

The next feature for me to program as it appears now is the "mother country" idea, that is such that minor countries for which tags are missing get assimilated into larger countries. Currently I imagine two components for this that I think should be stored in Countries.txt:

1.

vassal_merge_table =
{
    EU2_TAG1
    EU2_TAG2
    EU2_TAG3 #etc.
    BRA
    BAV
}

This list should include the EU2 country tags that when they have a vassal's status they should be merged with the their "lord" country. An example is if France keeps Lorraine as a vassal; if Lorraine has an entry into this table then its territory it given to France during conversion.

2.

mother_merge_table =
{
    EU2_TAG1 = VIC_TAG1
    EU2_TAG2 = VIC_TAG1
    EU2_TAG3 = VIC_TAG2 #etc.
}

Unlike the tag_conversion_table this list may have several EU2 tags mapping to the same Victoria tag. However if an EU2 tag occurs in the tag_conversion_table it cannot occur here, but it can occur in the vassal_merge_table (although if it is a vassal it will get converted based on that if there is any vassalage). The idea is that any EU2 to Vic tag mappings found in this table will make the corresponding EU2 countries automatically merge with their mother countries upon conversion. If their mother country has died it is instead artitfically created, but the territory is still transferred to it. If France, Lorraine and Orleaneis all exist, it means that Lorraine's and Orleanis' territories both go to France when converted (if they are mapped in this table of course). If France doesn't exist but the others still do, France is still created and those two countries are moved to France.

So what do you think? (I'm asking mainly Ironfoundersson he's doing a lot of the country tag conversion.) Would this be a good way of handling those unconverable tags?

 

[unmerged(9404)]

It's a good approach. This most of the tags can be converted. I have been working on this mother country idea a bit and I will post which tags can be put under which mother country.

Some issues.

1)In Victoria there is also a vassal status (don't know exactly what its called). Convertable TAGs that are vassals should be converted to Victoria TAGs. Or is this too complicated/difficult?

2)If the mother country doesn't exist what starting values for that country are used?

 

[Chaingun]

Of course, tags that are in the vassal_merge_table will not be merged even if they are vassals. Then again, they can still be members of either tag_conversion_table or mother_merge_table.

 

[unmerged(26691)]

I think this format for the mother countries would be much more overseeable (sp?):

mother = FRA {
	BRI
	ORL
	...
	}

with one of those table for each country that gets to have minors annexed to it...

We should also consider creating a handful of new countries (Mongolia, for example). We could always start with U20, for minimum interference with other mods (which usually start at U00).

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Some thoughts on the conversion of factories and technology:

The type of VIC factories you get should depend on the amount and type of EU2 factories you have. The factories should be made in accordance to the resource tree in which they belong. For small arms for instance you need steel and ammunition, these two factories should be built before a small arms factory. What VIC factories you get should thus depend on the amount of factories you have of one type in EU2.

Say you have 9 weapon factories.
1 => Steel factory
2 => Ammunition factory
3 => Small arms factory

4 => Steel factory
5 => Fertilizer factory
6 => Explosive factory
7 => Artillery factory

8 => Steel factory
9 => Ammunition factory

Thus you get no advanced factory without being able to produce the resources needed for that factory. You can still have problems getting the basic resources from your RGO's or the worldmarket but that's another problem.

For other factories the same can apply.

Naval factories
1 => Fabric factory
2 => Lumber factory
3 => Clipper factory
etc.

Refineries
1 => Glass factory
2 => Winery
3 => Liquor distillery
4 => canned food factory #foodstuff falls under the same category imho
etc.

Goods factory
1 => Fabric factory
2 => Regular clothes factory

3 => Lumber factory
4 => Furniture factory

5 => Cement factory

6 => Lumber factory
7 => Paper factory
etc.

Fine arts academy
FAA's can't really be converted into factories. Maybe these should be converted into cultural tech/prestige. The first five FAA's should give cultural techs, everything after that xxx(100?) prestige per FAA.


Technology
The amount of VIC techs you get should depend on the EU2 tech level with a cap of 5 techs, I beleive most western european countries start at that point. Army to army and naval to navl tech (doh!), trade tech to commercial tech, infra tech to industrial tech.

For army/naval tech
level 40 => 1 tech
level 45 => 2 techs
level 50 => 3 techs
level 55 => 4 techs
level 60 => 5 techs
For trade/infra tech
level 6 => 1 tech
level 7 => 2 techs
level 8 => 3 techs
level 9 => 4 techs
level 10 => 5 techs

Cultural tech could be handled with FAA as described above.

 

[Chaingun]

The problem with treating specific manufactories differently is that you end up with very skewed results. Generally, people in multiplayer tend to build refinieries beyond everything else because of the increase in trade efficiency. I'd believe most single players use a similiar approach, although it of course is not the preferable strategy for inland countries with sucky trading (Prussia, Austria, Russia). Anyhow, since in such a game the big majority of the factories in the world depending on the refineries would be created, I believe there would an oversupply in those goods. This would result in these factories barely able to make a profit, and it would cause a chronic undersupply of all goods related to factories that were not converted due to that no such refinieres was built in EU2.

I will repeat a statement from the past where I said that I believe it is best if all manufactories are treated equally in terms of target factories upon conversion. The target factory types would instead be determined by a specific ratio of factory allocation that is more economically sound than in 75% refinery world. However, feel free to oppose me in this matter as there might be a solution that can do away with the troubles that I discussed in the first paragraph.

 

[Brownbeard]

WEAPONS
1 => Steel factory
2 => Ammunition factory
3 => Steel factory
4 => Small arms factory
5 => Steel factory
6 => Ammunition factory
7 => Steel factory
8 => Fertilizer factory
9 => Steel factory
10 => Artillery factory

Naval factories
1 => Lumber factory
2 => Fabric factory
3 => Lumber factory
4 => Clipper factory
5 => Lumber factory
6 => Fabric factory

Refineries
1 => Glass factory
2 => Winery
3 => Liquor distillery
4 => canned food factory
5 => Fabric factory
6 => Regular clothes factory
7 => Lumber factory
8 => Furniture factory

Goods factory
1 => Cement factory
2 => Fabric factory
3 => Regular clothes factory
4 => Lumber factory
5 => Furniture factory
6 => Lumber factory
7 => Paper factory
8 => Cement factory

Fine arts academy
1 => Luxury clothes factory
2 => Luxury furniture factory
3 and all other=> prestige +20

i think this would be a better balanced economy

although, an even better remake would be possible, here's an idea for an approach. each manufactory conversion list should be a complete balanced economy, only the emphasis should be on the things characteristic for that manufactory.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

The problem with treating specific manufactories differently is that you end up with very skewed results. Generally, people in multiplayer tend to build refinieries beyond everything else because of the increase in trade efficiency. I'd believe most single players use a similiar approach, although it of course is not the preferable strategy for inland countries with sucky trading (Prussia, Austria, Russia). Anyhow, since in such a game the big majority of the factories in the world depending on the refineries would be created, I believe there would an oversupply in those goods. This would result in these factories barely able to make a profit, and it would cause a chronic undersupply of all goods related to factories that were not converted due to that no such refinieres was built in EU2.

Suprisingly that's not true. I'm looking true some of the stats on the russian site of Tonioz. Most manufactories of one kind was 16 and that werte weapon manufactories. Overall it looks like people built an average of 5 weapon manufs and refinery with max 10, 2-3 goods manuf, anmd 1-2 naval refineries.

I worked out one example of Europe Unleashed: Reloaded. At the end of the game this was the manufactory distribution:

		RUS	ENG	TUR	PER	SPA	FRA	POR	DAN	HOL	HAB	PRU
Manufactories:	19	30	7	28	10	9	29	23	16	16	9
Weapons		10	7	2	4	3	6	5	5	3	9	2
Naval		2	7					8	12	8	1	1
Fine Arts	2	1		10	1	2		2	2	3	2
Refinery	2	6	1	5	3	1	10	2		1	2
Goods		3	9	4	9	3		6	2	3	2	2[code]

With my proposition you get the following factories

[code]
Factory type	in converted EU2	in VIC 1.01
Steel factory		24		19
Ammunition factory	13		18
Small arms factory	12		18
Fertilizer factory	11		1
Explosive factory	11		2
Artillery factory	11		2
Glass factory		11		6
Winery			9		8
Liquor distillery	5		16
canned food factory	4		19
Clipper factory		8		18
Fabric factory		26		3
Regular clothes factory	13		3
Lumber factory		21		12
Furniture factory	4		2
Cement factory		3		5
Paper factory		2		0
Machine parts factory	0		1
Luxury clothes		0		1

Not the default setup is from 1.01 it received major tweaks in 1.03. I think it was in the line of less clippers, more fabric not sure.

Overall not too bad. Probably to much fertillizer, explosive, artillery, fabric, regular clothes, lumber. Not enough liquor, wineries and canned food.

A machine parts factory should probably be added for one country, for instance.

I like the way this setup is as it transfers a bit of how you setup your country in EU to Victoria. Built lots of weapon manufactories and you'll get a good militairy-industrial complex, concentrate on infra bulding goods manufactories and you'll get lots of good producing manufactories.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

WEAPONS
1 => Steel factory
2 => Ammunition factory
3 => Steel factory
4 => Small arms factory
5 => Steel factory
6 => Ammunition factory
7 => Steel factory
8 => Fertilizer factory
9 => Steel factory
10 => Artillery factory

Naval factories
1 => Lumber factory
2 => Fabric factory
3 => Lumber factory
4 => Clipper factory
5 => Lumber factory
6 => Fabric factory

Refineries
1 => Glass factory
2 => Winery
3 => Liquor distillery
4 => canned food factory
5 => Fabric factory
6 => Regular clothes factory
7 => Lumber factory
8 => Furniture factory

Goods factory
1 => Cement factory
2 => Fabric factory
3 => Regular clothes factory
4 => Lumber factory
5 => Furniture factory
6 => Lumber factory
7 => Paper factory
8 => Cement factory

Fine arts academy
1 => Luxury clothes factory
2 => Luxury furniture factory
3 and all other=> prestige +20

i think this would be a better balanced economy

Could also work though I think you'll get a bit to much lumber and steel factories with this.

although, an even better remake would be possible, here's an idea for an approach. each manufactory conversion list should be a complete balanced economy, only the emphasis should be on the things characteristic for that manufactory.

Could you elaborate on this? What do you mean?

 

[Brownbeard]

kinda like chaingun suggested.

ie. you have an economy that covers the entire range of products but produces more of A final product than B(ie. 20 navalequipment mfgs vs. 20 refineries produce more ships than they produce regular clothes, but still both produce all goods)

perhaps i did add a bit of steel and lumber too much, but i am always so short of those... but you could interpret weapons as melee weapons as well in those days(yes, they must have built massive steel mills just to get enough rapiers... ). and a few nations can mantain more than one artillery factory (and generally, getting enough sulphur to supply a whole production chain is very, very hard)

 

[Golden_Deliciou]

This is an intriguing project. Can't wait to see its fruition.

I'm no coder myself- but what I would suggest if possible would be to go with Ironfoundersson's system and then convert the more numerous manufacturies (particularly the ones which are relatively sophisticated) into advanced manufacturies not already represented- machine tools and luxury clothes & furniture. That way, only countries which were already highly developed would get these key resources.

Additionally, I don't know as I'm not hugely familiar with this, but it seems that you're producing a LOT of factories with this system. I mean, players are going to have fairly sophisticated economies from the get-go, which changes the whole dynamic of the opening part of the Victoria.

Hope this is some help.

 

[Avian073]

I was just wondering how we handle when sometime people build huge amounts of manufactories in SP. MP is obviously much harder due to humans, but even at Very Hard and Furious i usually end up build 50-60 manufactories. However, almost no country i've played can support this many factories. After a certain limit i think we should just convert all extra into prestige or tech. Like after 50 u shouldn't keep on getting factories. It might have been new, but usually i thought most people built more weapons and naval since refinery and goods' bonuses to tech usually become useless by the early 1700's.

 

[Chaingun]

I was just wondering how we handle when sometime people build huge amounts of manufactories in SP. MP is obviously much harder due to humans, but even at Very Hard and Furious i usually end up build 50-60 manufactories. However, almost no country i've played can support this many factories. After a certain limit i think we should just convert all extra into prestige or tech. Like after 50 u shouldn't keep on getting factories. It might have been new, but usually i thought most people built more weapons and naval since refinery and goods' bonuses to tech usually become useless by the early 1700's.

Hmm on the other hand you tend to have a quite large empire if you can ever get enough money to build 50 manufactories. Then again, a few small nations (like Holland) can earn very much from trade and from there finance a shitload of manufactories.

 

[Brownbeard]

a simple question: should every eu2 game result in a 19.ct pax britannica?

history takes a different course in eu2 so an alternate reality with more advanced economy is something that can be expected.

so, why shouldn't portugal or holland take the world into industrialization if they ended the eu2 game as dominant economic forces?

 

[Chaingun]

Noone is arguing against that (although a hardcoded 50 cap maybe would). Rather mmy thoughts was that the amount of factories created in one state and thus the density shouldn't be so extremely high that not all factories can be theoretically used. What I would aim for would be a similar amount of factories to the Grand Campaign in Victoria (perhaps a bit more since most SP and MP games in EU2 tend to overachieve history).

 

[Brownbeard]

just about any eu2 game overachieves history by a century or two in advancement ;-)

so, i don't see a big deal if a manufactury becomes a level 1 factory.

but, the question whether this is good or not heavily depends on how pops will be converted. a much larger population in a converted scenario would need more industry, and vice versa.

so, how much victoria pops will 1,000 eu2 pops in senegal be? or 300,000 pops in zacatecas? and if both regions had a manufactory, would both get a level 1 factory?

 

[unmerged(26691)]

Maybe the number of manufacturers and clerks in a state should be tied to the number of factories in it? Ot the city size in EUII (after all, the manufacturers and clerk live in the city)...

About factories, what about converting the first few on a 1-1 basis, and the ratio gets worse the more factories are already there (for example:

Manucacturies 1-10 : 1-10 factories

1-20: 1-5 manufacturies more

20-30: 1-3 manufacturies more

30-40: 1 factory...