Enhancing Realism in Warfare: Some Ideas to Diminish Arcade Elements in the Game

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The shattered retreat is a good idea! maybe a general ability that "paratroop" or extract units from pockets to a closer owned tile while loosing manpower and equipment.
A button could be an issue as it would add to micro a fair bit.

Losing 95% of everything could be a good starting point, losing less if there is friendly territory close by, if you have air superiority, if weather is rough, or if you are not fully surrounded (ie empty provinces), if friendly naval zone nearby and if you back on to impassable terrain, and probably some other factors I am not thinking of (like general traits and war support, oh! and being on a core or claim should be a major factor). Some of the forces could go to increase regional resistance.
A good pocket several provinces wide with divisions on both sides should be tight, but a weak encirclement of one brigade capturing some empty territory should be leaky.

If the unit is already low strength, it is destroyed. Toying with the idea of putting such units back in the division builder queue too, but it would be weird on isolated fronts.

The net result should improve the situation in multiplayer when a player misses a front and help out the ai when it is being hapless.
 
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I was toying with ideas on how to make it more realistic. Do you think the game is good in its current state? or do you think it needs some changes in certain parts? in regards to realism. Other than the ideas i wrote, i think the tactics system needs a rework, maybe some kind of player input.
it's hard to make calls on realism w/o holding to a particular scope.

i do think tactics could be more granular/have more agency, but i'm not sure that's a realism change so much as a general gameplay one. a lot of things that were or were not done in reality don't track to hoi 4 because the game engine + rules confer different limitations than reality had. even basic stuff like how arty work is really different. it's hard to square that and still have player agency. i think most aspects of core gameplay loop design itself are fairly reasonable for a game that abstracts this much, though i agree that tactics being mostly under the hood dice rolls where investments into recon and initiative barely matter is unsatisfying, even mechanically.
 
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"Arcade Nature"

What? Hearts of Iron 4 does not feel 'arcadey' for me.

Wait, it actualy is arcadey in some ways, but who cares? When games are super realistic, it just loses It's fun, game isn't meant to be real life. Besides, if you want hardcore realism, I would recommend you to try the Black Ice mod for HoI4.
 
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Any changes shouldn't be around realism vs "arcade", whatever that means. It's a video game. If I wanted a war simulator I'd join the army or go with the Doctor to kill Hitler.

Changes should be around whether they add to, incorporate new, or enhance existing systems and strategic thinking required of the player. Doesn't mean it's exclusive to realism, only that it should be the analysis applied to prospective changes.

With that in mind, I think motorised supply using fuel is a good idea. It adds a new aspect to the decision making choices of the player (increased supply throughput vs the increased use of fuel). From my hazy memory, I believe slow, horse-driven supply lines were a problem from Germany, as they needed the fuel for tanks on the frontline (so there's a basis for this decision being given to the player).

Likewise, I think a pilot pool is a sensible addition. Pilot loss was a big issue during the battle of Britain, so there's a historical basis for adding this metric to the game. It would come with leaders that could increase pilot training rate, or otherwise you could add a sort of wing template (like division template) that needs to be trained with equipment before they can be used. (Side note, rushing the deployment of these wings has a basis in history from the battle of Britain, I believe some German pilots had as little as a few hours flight time before fighting).

Alternatively, maybe sitting a wing in a home territory and practising manoeuvres could sort of be the equivalent. In which case the experience modifier for air might need adjusting, or the training mission might need to have a higher cap for experience level.

I'm not aware of any other areas where you need a pool of experts. Anyone can drive a tank, load a cannon etc and I think that training is already reflected.

I personally would like equipment supply to work a little different. I believe it all magically appears in the capital before traversing the network. But this makes no sense. For example, if I surround an industrial city but don't take it, the enemy should be denied the equipment produced in there. Additionally, any enemy infantry stuck there, should get their pick of the equipment.

Happy to be corrected on my understanding of equipment supply though.

I've a similar issue with sinking convoys that are transporting troops. Some how sinking every convoy doesn't drown every soldier? I'm not sure how divisions in north Africa are being reinforced when I've denied the Mediterranean to the British, but maybe I'm not understanding something.
 
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Any changes shouldn't be around realism vs "arcade", whatever that means. It's a video game. If I wanted a war simulator I'd join the army or go with the Doctor to kill Hitler.

Changes should be around whether they add to, incorporate new, or enhance existing systems and strategic thinking required of the player. Doesn't mean it's exclusive to realism, only that it should be the analysis applied to prospective changes.

With that in mind, I think motorised supply using fuel is a good idea. It adds a new aspect to the decision making choices of the player (increased supply throughput vs the increased use of fuel). From my hazy memory, I believe slow, horse-driven supply lines were a problem from Germany, as they needed the fuel for tanks on the frontline (so there's a basis for this decision being given to the player).

Likewise, I think a pilot pool is a sensible addition. Pilot loss was a big issue during the battle of Britain, so there's a historical basis for adding this metric to the game. It would come with leaders that could increase pilot training rate, or otherwise you could add a sort of wing template (like division template) that needs to be trained with equipment before they can be used. (Side note, rushing the deployment of these wings has a basis in history from the battle of Britain, I believe some German pilots had as little as a few hours flight time before fighting).

Alternatively, maybe sitting a wing in a home territory and practising manoeuvres could sort of be the equivalent. In which case the experience modifier for air might need adjusting, or the training mission might need to have a higher cap for experience level.

I'm not aware of any other areas where you need a pool of experts. Anyone can drive a tank, load a cannon etc and I think that training is already reflected.

I personally would like equipment supply to work a little different. I believe it all magically appears in the capital before traversing the network. But this makes no sense. For example, if I surround an industrial city but don't take it, the enemy should be denied the equipment produced in there. Additionally, any enemy infantry stuck there, should get their pick of the equipment.

Happy to be corrected on my understanding of equipment supply though.

I've a similar issue with sinking convoys that are transporting troops. Some how sinking every convoy doesn't drown every soldier? I'm not sure how divisions in north Africa are being reinforced when I've denied the Mediterranean to the British, but maybe I'm not understanding something.

Thank you for the thoughtful answer. The pilot pool mechanic seems very interesting!. Currently, air warfare in the game is quite basic: produce, possibly train, and then assign to an air province or a general. Rinse and repeat. While this mirrors the concept of war to some extent, it lacks a mechanic that prevents simply stacking 2k planes on a general, and hope for having the best dice roll and the best plane stats. Then winning the air battle by merely outproducing the "best design" seems realistic but also simplistic for a player with almost no input into deciding the outcome. In hoi4 land battle you can manouer, encircle, penetrate, airdrop, shore land. Even with the rng battle the player has some input. In the sea battle at least you can input a retreat and manually move your fleet. Perhaps there's potential for enhancing the air warfare aspect of the game.
 
Air Supply: In terms of air warfare, the ability to have 2k planes flying uninterrupted on each side seems unrealistic. It would be a logistical and managerial feat. Yet, in the game, it just works. All you have to do is spam better planes to win the air war. Air supply also needs a rework in order to make the player and AI choose wisely when to use the air force.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the scale of air warfare is like 10 times smaller in HOI4 than it was in reality. Germany could produce like 40 000 planes a year and they were still outproduced 3:1 by the allies:

1712679079201.png
 
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Thank you for the thoughtful answer. The pilot pool mechanic seems very interesting!. Currently, air warfare in the game is quite basic: produce, possibly train, and then assign to an air province or a general. Rinse and repeat. While this mirrors the concept of war to some extent, it lacks a mechanic that prevents simply stacking 2k planes on a general, and hope for having the best dice roll and the best plane stats. Then winning the air battle by merely outproducing the "best design" seems realistic but also simplistic for a player with almost no input into deciding the outcome. In hoi4 land battle you can manouer, encircle, penetrate, airdrop, shore land. Even with the rng battle the player has some input. In the sea battle at least you can input a retreat and manually move your fleet. Perhaps there's potential for enhancing the air warfare aspect of the game.
I'm not sure there's much you can add to air or navy. Boats and planes don't encircle the enemy, not with a province by province approach anyway.

There's a positioning stat for naval combat which already encapsulates this.

Air combat might be better with a bit of a "mission designer". Like, you don't just say "do strategic warfare in this predefined area" but instead you specify:
  • Targets by priority. Factories in this province/state, followed by this state, following by port strike, following by runway cratering etc etc
  • Make up of the attacks. For example, 200 bombers and 100 fighter escorts, but you can pick the physical planes (use the older planes my pilots have more experience in, also track experience by type)
  • Whether certain planes should engage enemy air or protect bombers.
  • Whether bombers should turn back with their escorts, or proceed without them
  • Day/night
  • Whether this mission should repeat, if it's to repeat should it repeat only when at full strength, or is their a lower bound which it should repeat to (so say at least 50 escorts and 100 bombers and the mission will execute)
I can't see how there's equivalents for naval warfare.
 
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Minor nations should have limited research trees, perhaps only up to 1936 or less advanced tech. Limiting research to countries realistically capable of producing certain technologies could enhance realism.

Not everyone will agree with this one.

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Iirc this was discussed during the introduction of fuel as a resource that is used up, but i'm no longer sure why it was exactly decided against by the developers. Either because of time constraints, technical limitations, because it couldn't be introduced in a bug free way or simply because of a different vision for the gameplay. Whatever the case, it was definetly something that was discussed at some point but it remains to be seen whether it will be introduced or not. I'm neutral on this issue.
The devs did actually discuss this-- but they discussed it when they added motorized supply, because Fuel is older than the current supply system.
They said they tested it, but it caused frequent & severe fluctuations in fuel usage as units moved further and further from a supply hub, then a new captured one came online, etc. I think motorized fuel usage is important enough that I'd prefer they have found ways to make this play well, or at least made it well enough that it could be included as an option for modders to enable.
 
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I know what you mean by arcade, like the old supply system was 'arcade' compared to current, but this is a game that can take hours to set up before you even unpause.

The arcade element would be to me that instead of occasionally demanding 25 cents, it occasionally demands 25 dollar DLC haha
 
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Not everyone will agree with this one.
A controversial topic!. My thinking was "minor nations shouldn't have the best technology because it's not realistic," in the game minor countries can acquire advance tech through licensing, I think that is a good realistic mechanic. However, I'm not sure if the AI utilizes this feature at all. I preferred the research style in HOI3, which was linked to leadership cost that can be assigned. The abstraction of "reaserch", in the game, is like having a set number of scientists developing military technology 24/7 without any cost is not realistic; perhaps minor nations need a buff in tech research or something like that, or maybe reaserch time is linked to Industrial capacity. But again this post is about throwing ideas and thinking out loud.
 
I think it'd be hard for anybody to argue it makes sense that motorized supply doesn't take fuel. This should be implemented ASAP.

I mean as a US main, go for it what do I care? BUT big deal even if you do it, all that just means everyone else would stick to horses? Or the Allies buy that much more fuel from the US making the US even stronger with all those civ factories? How many horses did Ethiopia have access to much less all of sub Sahara Africa? Why are horses viable even in winter environments like the USSR, shouldn't supply take a bigger hit in winter because horsey is freezing up like at Stalingrad? It's not like the horse got replaced merely because a truck carries more.

I'm of two minds about this because how realistic is HOI4 fuel consumption to begin with? Do we all need degrees in Petroleum Engineering now to know what the US in theory had back then which btw they were wrong about then as much as they are now, remember they've been pushing that whole "fields gonna dry up any day now" narrative a long time. How much did they really use logistics wise?

PLUS it takes unrealistically too long to build a supply hub, sure it's a nice mechanic but are we really to believe the US or Germany couldn't erect a decent supply hub if they had the resources to do so fairly quickly? The issue was they didn't have time

PLUS let's be clear some of the german and soviet issues are self inflicted back then: one side can't help but make something that has an engine that would be better suited on a race track while the other makes a janky engine and shoves poorly refined oil down it hoping it doesn't gum the parts up too much.
 
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