The Greek Question
Proposal Being Reviewed:
Motion submitted by Italy
To King August Wilhelm I and envoys of Russia, France and Byzantium:
I have always believed that war is the last resort, and the Republic is always willing to negotiate. It has come to my attention that tensions have arisen due to Italian control of Greece, and I have a proposal to end this conflict.
I am willing to cede my Greek territories, though I wish to keep the important naval base of Corfu. However, I will not simply give away these territories; for the Byzantine Empire I have two conditions:
1. The transfer of Delta and Alexandria to the Italian Republic.
2. A guarantee to remain out of Africa.
I believe that such conditions are in the benefit of all, and are entirely reasonable. It is fair to point out that a war with Italy will result in total, complete blockades of all countries involved and economic destruction. The Byzantine Empire is also in no state for war, and their war exhaustion would quickly be made more crippling if they chose to fight us.
Signed
Doge Raniero di Medici
Assembly Discussion:
France:
I strongly oppose these terms. Not only does the Byzantine Empire have legitimate claims over Greece while you do not, Byzantium must reject this motion simply because it would create a situation where Italy would be in a position to claim most, if not all of African. Not only this, but he would also control the only two feasible entrances/exits to the Mediterranean sea.Giving him unrestricted access to numerous centers of trades and many valuable resources, rarely found elsewhere in the known world. This would most likely create a situation of Italian hegemony in Europe. This coupled with the strong Prussian-Italian Alliance, would severely upset the balance of power, and put Italy in a position where it could very easily re-conquer Greece whenever it would feel like it.
I strongly urge all who are present to oppose these terms as well.
Italy:
You misunderstand the terms entirely. I do not know where France has been the past 200 years, but Italy already controls a great deal of Africa and I am already poised to control most of it, regardless of this negotiation.
You also refer to the Suez Canal, I presume? Which does not exist, frankly; but even if it did, I would not control it, for the canal would split the Italian and Byzantine territories and I agree to joint control of the aforementioned canal which will not exist for 200+ years.
The notion that Greece is not an integral part of the Republic is simply ridiculous. They have been loyal citizens of the Republic for nearly 200 years, and have adopted our religion and customs, along with full representation in Italian affairs. How you can possibly say that Italy has no "legitimate claims" over Greece disturbs me.
To France I say that you have your own vested interests in Africa, that should not be allowed to interfere with the current negotiation. I will also remind everyone that we should be accustomed to French duplicity by now; I would never be so shameless as the French. France is looking only for the advancement of their own colonial interests, which has been proven in the past by the betrayal of Great Britain in an attempt gain colonial power.
France:
Greece, even though it has been subjected to Italian rule for a little less than 200 years now, it has never been truly Italian, therefore, your claims are not legitimate in the slightest.
As for Africa, your near total control of Africa is exactly why I oppose this motion. Said proposal would hopelessly subject Africa to Italian rule, something the international community will not stand for !
Italy's aggressive, arrogant and self-serving Foreign Policy is troubling indeed...
Italy:
If we apply your "theories" concerning ethnicity and nationalism, then by extension the Byzantines should cede all of their non-Greek territory, the Russians should release Hungary, etc. What you say simply does not apply to reality. Our original conquest of Greece liberated the Greeks from the Ottomans. If you are honestly more aligned with heathen Muslims than you are your own Protestant brothers, then I am sickened.
And why, then, has the international community "stood for" my colonization of Africa these past 200 years? I am surprised that you call my rule of Africa hopeless subjugation - when you also seek to do the same thing as I. Italian Africa is just that - Italian. Most of the Italian territories in Africa have an Italian culture and are Protestant. I am frankly surprised that you are not outraged at Great Britain, who has near total control of North America. North America is hopelessly subjected to British rule, something the international community will not stand for! Obviously, I do not believe that, but you are hypocritical if you do not apply your biased "balance of power" to Great Britain as well.
I am absolutely horrified by your attempted propagation of lies. I cannot believe that you call my policies aggressive, arrogant and self-serving. Perhaps you need to look at your own policies; I have never betrayed my own allies in pursuit of my own gain.
France:
Byzantium should not cede it's non Greek territories because no-one with a more legitimate claim has come along and demanded their territory, same thing with Russia in Hungary. Also, I admit that Britain is a dominant power and North America, but what goes on there is hardly any of my business. Africa, on the other hand, is on our doorstep, we therefore feel obligated to protect our interest, as well as those of our allies, in the region.
Italy:
Yes, but to say I have no legitimate claim is not true. Also, if you do not believe that Britain is any of your business, then I suggest you retract your statements concerning the balance of power, since you obviously have no interesting in really maintaining it.
France:
Thing is, the proposal you sent to the Byzantines is bad for Byzantium and France (We feel that we are also obligated to defend our allies interest (Netherlands))
Italy:
It is not an unfair proposal, because it prevents a war that would be destructive on all sides. I do not know how you are defending the interests of the Netherlands, either. We have already negotiated our African borders to the benefit of both parties.
France:
The Netherlands have claims on South Africa. If this passes, only a prolonged war could possibly reduce your hold on Africa to an accepteable level.
Italy:
I do not understand what you are saying - the Netherlands and I have already decided our African borders, so I do not see where the problem is.
France:
Did not know that
o Nonetheless, Italian dominance of Africa cannot be allowed this easily.
*Useless and irrelevant chit-chat goes on a little bit*
Russia:
Italy, your claim to greece is as relevant as a turd sandwich lying in the sun on a dry thursday eaving.
The Byzantines have the highest claim, culture namely. their main culture is Greek, their capital is greek and their mayor nation began to exist in greece. your Italian culture has no relevance to greece whatsoever. your claims that they are an integral part of italy because of cores and religion is also void, give me 10 years and those people will then become very ortodox and russian like, it holds no relevance whatsoever.
Italy:
I'm glad that you resort to insult before you even read what I have to say. I'm a bit disappointed. (Unless you actually have read it, and just have nothing at all to say about it.)
Russia:
I have read it all, trough France. regardless of that this was pre determined at the start, anyone can agree that byzantines have the higher claim on greek lands. anyone that does not should brush up on their history
(OOC: I changed the section in bold for Role-Playing purposes)
Italy:
Did I ever reject that? I just believe that I should have compensation for giving the Greek lands away. I do believe that the Byzantine claims are more concrete, but considering their value to me I will not give them up for nothing.
France:
No you should not be compensated, period.
Russia:
the Greek lands are of very little relevance to the Italian economy, it should not prove very difficult to surrender those to contain the Byzantines.
Italy:
Explain to me why I should not have compensation for territory I conquered from the Ottoman Empire 200 years ago.
The relevance to my economy does not determine their value to me, and to the Byzantines. For, even if they aren't extremely valuable to me, I know that they are for the Byzantines and therefore I should expect something for them. (And I would not say that they are of very little relevance, but that is an aside).
Russia:
every heard of generosity and goodwill? i gave France 5000 ducats, something unpreceded in this game. surely the greek provinces dont even comprise 50% of this in value.
Italy:
The Byzantines are not a failed state in need of 5,000 ducats. Byzantium is a strong empire which is able to negotiate.
And you may talk of goodwill, but you and France do not border each other. Also, I feel it is fair to say that yours and France's interests line up pretty neatly; perhaps they became so because of those 5,000 ducats? It seems that you now have a voice in Western Europe.
France:
I would choose my words more wisely, Italian. As it is now you are making more enemies than you can fight off. I would treat us with respect if I were you. You could not withstand the military might of any one of us, let alone us all...
Prussia:
Gentlemen, I would first like to thank you for being open to meeting in Berlin. I must admit, I was worried that only myself and Russia would show. Yes, it is true that Russia had suggested this meeting, but it was not because he suggested it that it has been called. A war in our time would be costly, and I would like to see it avoided at all costs.
According to Prussia's historians, the Greek lands in question once belonged to the Roman Empire. When the Eastern/Western split occurred in the late 5th century, the lands in question belonged the Eastern Empire. Thus, the claims of Byzantium do hold more weight than the Italians, even though they have currently held them for the past 200 years. However, this is not the point they should be arguing over. As is to my understanding, the Italians have offered these lands up to the Byzantines in exchange for Alexandria and Thrace. This offer is between that of the Byzantines and the Italians. War has been threatened if these lands are not given up, but I say that with the Byzantines current position, they should be able to agree to this deal.
France has a valued point that this would give the Italians free realm over the Mediterranean, but why should the French be concerned about this matter? French interests in Northern Africa should be left out of this part of the discussion.
I suggest that before any military action be taken, we continue to see if these matters can be handled diplomatically.
France:
Why should it be left out of this conversation ? This is an assembly to resolve our differences peacefully, yet you insist on denying my right to express myself on this matter. My interests are perfectly relevant, an Italian controlled Mediterranean would be detrimental to everyone on the Mediterranean coast !
Prussia:
Sir, That's why I said that part of the discussion. I did not say that you should drop your claims on Northern Africa, but in regards to the Greek lands, I feel it needs to between those two countries directly involved. the Italian-Franco Northern African dispute should also be at the table. I would like to see everything done peacefully.
Please do not think that I care not about your claims. I value them.
France:
Very well, I will take my leave of you all, and return once I have drafted my own motion.
*French Diplomat Leaves the room*
*To Be Continued *
The Berlin Assembly of 1609
Official Archived Transcript
The Greek Question
Proposal Being Reviewed:
Motion submitted by Italy
To King August Wilhelm I and envoys of Russia, France and Byzantium:
I have always believed that war is the last resort, and the Republic is always willing to negotiate. It has come to my attention that tensions have arisen due to Italian control of Greece, and I have a proposal to end this conflict.
I am willing to cede my Greek territories, though I wish to keep the important naval base of Corfu. However, I will not simply give away these territories; for the Byzantine Empire I have two conditions:
1. The transfer of Delta and Alexandria to the Italian Republic.
2. A guarantee to remain out of Africa.
I believe that such conditions are in the benefit of all, and are entirely reasonable. It is fair to point out that a war with Italy will result in total, complete blockades of all countries involved and economic destruction. The Byzantine Empire is also in no state for war, and their war exhaustion would quickly be made more crippling if they chose to fight us.
Signed
Doge Raniero di Medici
Assembly Discussion:
France:
I strongly oppose these terms. Not only does the Byzantine Empire have legitimate claims over Greece while you do not, Byzantium must reject this motion simply because it would create a situation where Italy would be in a position to claim most, if not all of African. Not only this, but he would also control the only two feasible entrances/exits to the Mediterranean sea.Giving him unrestricted access to numerous centers of trades and many valuable resources, rarely found elsewhere in the known world. This would most likely create a situation of Italian hegemony in Europe. This coupled with the strong Prussian-Italian Alliance, would severely upset the balance of power, and put Italy in a position where it could very easily re-conquer Greece whenever it would feel like it.
I strongly urge all who are present to oppose these terms as well.
Italy:
You misunderstand the terms entirely. I do not know where France has been the past 200 years, but Italy already controls a great deal of Africa and I am already poised to control most of it, regardless of this negotiation.
You also refer to the Suez Canal, I presume? Which does not exist, frankly; but even if it did, I would not control it, for the canal would split the Italian and Byzantine territories and I agree to joint control of the aforementioned canal which will not exist for 200+ years.
The notion that Greece is not an integral part of the Republic is simply ridiculous. They have been loyal citizens of the Republic for nearly 200 years, and have adopted our religion and customs, along with full representation in Italian affairs. How you can possibly say that Italy has no "legitimate claims" over Greece disturbs me.
To France I say that you have your own vested interests in Africa, that should not be allowed to interfere with the current negotiation. I will also remind everyone that we should be accustomed to French duplicity by now; I would never be so shameless as the French. France is looking only for the advancement of their own colonial interests, which has been proven in the past by the betrayal of Great Britain in an attempt gain colonial power.
France:
Greece, even though it has been subjected to Italian rule for a little less than 200 years now, it has never been truly Italian, therefore, your claims are not legitimate in the slightest.
As for Africa, your near total control of Africa is exactly why I oppose this motion. Said proposal would hopelessly subject Africa to Italian rule, something the international community will not stand for !
Italy's aggressive, arrogant and self-serving Foreign Policy is troubling indeed...
Italy:
If we apply your "theories" concerning ethnicity and nationalism, then by extension the Byzantines should cede all of their non-Greek territory, the Russians should release Hungary, etc. What you say simply does not apply to reality. Our original conquest of Greece liberated the Greeks from the Ottomans. If you are honestly more aligned with heathen Muslims than you are your own Protestant brothers, then I am sickened.
And why, then, has the international community "stood for" my colonization of Africa these past 200 years? I am surprised that you call my rule of Africa hopeless subjugation - when you also seek to do the same thing as I. Italian Africa is just that - Italian. Most of the Italian territories in Africa have an Italian culture and are Protestant. I am frankly surprised that you are not outraged at Great Britain, who has near total control of North America. North America is hopelessly subjected to British rule, something the international community will not stand for! Obviously, I do not believe that, but you are hypocritical if you do not apply your biased "balance of power" to Great Britain as well.
I am absolutely horrified by your attempted propagation of lies. I cannot believe that you call my policies aggressive, arrogant and self-serving. Perhaps you need to look at your own policies; I have never betrayed my own allies in pursuit of my own gain.
France:
Byzantium should not cede it's non Greek territories because no-one with a more legitimate claim has come along and demanded their territory, same thing with Russia in Hungary. Also, I admit that Britain is a dominant power and North America, but what goes on there is hardly any of my business. Africa, on the other hand, is on our doorstep, we therefore feel obligated to protect our interest, as well as those of our allies, in the region.
Italy:
Yes, but to say I have no legitimate claim is not true. Also, if you do not believe that Britain is any of your business, then I suggest you retract your statements concerning the balance of power, since you obviously have no interesting in really maintaining it.
France:
Thing is, the proposal you sent to the Byzantines is bad for Byzantium and France (We feel that we are also obligated to defend our allies interest (Netherlands))
Italy:
It is not an unfair proposal, because it prevents a war that would be destructive on all sides. I do not know how you are defending the interests of the Netherlands, either. We have already negotiated our African borders to the benefit of both parties.
France:
The Netherlands have claims on South Africa. If this passes, only a prolonged war could possibly reduce your hold on Africa to an accepteable level.
Italy:
I do not understand what you are saying - the Netherlands and I have already decided our African borders, so I do not see where the problem is.
France:
Did not know that
o Nonetheless, Italian dominance of Africa cannot be allowed this easily.*Useless and irrelevant chit-chat goes on a little bit*
Russia:
Italy, your claim to greece is as relevant as a turd sandwich lying in the sun on a dry thursday eaving.
The Byzantines have the highest claim, culture namely. their main culture is Greek, their capital is greek and their mayor nation began to exist in greece. your Italian culture has no relevance to greece whatsoever. your claims that they are an integral part of italy because of cores and religion is also void, give me 10 years and those people will then become very ortodox and russian like, it holds no relevance whatsoever.
Italy:
I'm glad that you resort to insult before you even read what I have to say. I'm a bit disappointed. (Unless you actually have read it, and just have nothing at all to say about it.)
Russia:
I have read it all, trough France. regardless of that this was pre determined at the start, anyone can agree that byzantines have the higher claim on greek lands. anyone that does not should brush up on their history
(OOC: I changed the section in bold for Role-Playing purposes)
Italy:
Did I ever reject that? I just believe that I should have compensation for giving the Greek lands away. I do believe that the Byzantine claims are more concrete, but considering their value to me I will not give them up for nothing.
France:
No you should not be compensated, period.
Russia:
the Greek lands are of very little relevance to the Italian economy, it should not prove very difficult to surrender those to contain the Byzantines.
Italy:
Explain to me why I should not have compensation for territory I conquered from the Ottoman Empire 200 years ago.
The relevance to my economy does not determine their value to me, and to the Byzantines. For, even if they aren't extremely valuable to me, I know that they are for the Byzantines and therefore I should expect something for them. (And I would not say that they are of very little relevance, but that is an aside).
Russia:
every heard of generosity and goodwill? i gave France 5000 ducats, something unpreceded in this game. surely the greek provinces dont even comprise 50% of this in value.
Italy:
The Byzantines are not a failed state in need of 5,000 ducats. Byzantium is a strong empire which is able to negotiate.
And you may talk of goodwill, but you and France do not border each other. Also, I feel it is fair to say that yours and France's interests line up pretty neatly; perhaps they became so because of those 5,000 ducats? It seems that you now have a voice in Western Europe.
France:
I would choose my words more wisely, Italian. As it is now you are making more enemies than you can fight off. I would treat us with respect if I were you. You could not withstand the military might of any one of us, let alone us all...
Prussia:
Gentlemen, I would first like to thank you for being open to meeting in Berlin. I must admit, I was worried that only myself and Russia would show. Yes, it is true that Russia had suggested this meeting, but it was not because he suggested it that it has been called. A war in our time would be costly, and I would like to see it avoided at all costs.
According to Prussia's historians, the Greek lands in question once belonged to the Roman Empire. When the Eastern/Western split occurred in the late 5th century, the lands in question belonged the Eastern Empire. Thus, the claims of Byzantium do hold more weight than the Italians, even though they have currently held them for the past 200 years. However, this is not the point they should be arguing over. As is to my understanding, the Italians have offered these lands up to the Byzantines in exchange for Alexandria and Thrace. This offer is between that of the Byzantines and the Italians. War has been threatened if these lands are not given up, but I say that with the Byzantines current position, they should be able to agree to this deal.
France has a valued point that this would give the Italians free realm over the Mediterranean, but why should the French be concerned about this matter? French interests in Northern Africa should be left out of this part of the discussion.
I suggest that before any military action be taken, we continue to see if these matters can be handled diplomatically.
France:
Why should it be left out of this conversation ? This is an assembly to resolve our differences peacefully, yet you insist on denying my right to express myself on this matter. My interests are perfectly relevant, an Italian controlled Mediterranean would be detrimental to everyone on the Mediterranean coast !
Prussia:
Sir, That's why I said that part of the discussion. I did not say that you should drop your claims on Northern Africa, but in regards to the Greek lands, I feel it needs to between those two countries directly involved. the Italian-Franco Northern African dispute should also be at the table. I would like to see everything done peacefully.
Please do not think that I care not about your claims. I value them.
France:
Very well, I will take my leave of you all, and return once I have drafted my own motion.
*French Diplomat Leaves the room*
*To Be Continued
*
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