Do you have any reason for the bias against China and Communist China?

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Aug 22, 2007
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Hello.

I am of the opinion that much of the research teams, lack of events and commanders of the two Chinese countries builds upon little more than feelings in terms of "heh, I think this will fit" and little thought has been put into it. Or simply; it wasn't an are of main focus.


The chinese and especially cpc doctrine commanders are horribly bad. They are worse than those of say Bulgaria and Brazil for no reason at all.
The chinese may have lacked the large industries and research institutes of Japan but they did not beat Japan using 18th century tactics. On the contrary, the war against Japan and later the civil war layed the ground work for future guerilla warfare and was studied by many revolutionaries and military universities around the world and later helped the Chinese in regular combat in Korea.


The best Chinese general research team is of Wu (6). A person I know very little off. While the likes of Chaing, Mao and their main marshals lay in the area of 2-3 skill. Further more Deng Xiaoping is for some reason the best China has on industrial/agricultural development, something that seems to suggest a bias towards his economic policies of the 70's with very little knowledge of him in general. Chiang and his government were the first to truly begin some form of industrilization of China and helped free the peasants from serfdom which lead to an increase in production but they lack any good teams in this regard. Deng on the other hand had very little to do with developing industry, even in the 70's and especially not in the 30's and 40's.

In general there is a lack of events or new, better research teams for China.
A complete lack of events for CPC and an even worse outlook than in DD-A for its eventual seizure of land and victory due to the way the political map has been recolored and even the 1942 scenario disregards its military acquisitions which at least by now could have been artificially suggested and lets its most modern division be 3 1931 Mountain Divisions.

The commanders in the army are also of very low skill, even the majors.
Mao as a political leader is also deeply negatively biased towards some sort of corrupt kleptocrat instead of adding at least a few positive aspects like added militia/infantry production or something at all.

That he had any luck with attracting alliances of "dictatorial" nature is untrue. If dictatorial is supposed to suggest the USSR or even Nat-China then that is obviously wrong as he didn't manage to or want to keep either of them allied for long. In fact, he ended up coming closer to America than the USSR.
 

Limith

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Hello.

I am of the opinion that much of the research teams, lack of events and commanders of the two Chinese countries builds upon little more than feelings in terms of "heh, I think this will fit" and little thought has been put into it. Or simply; it wasn't an are of main focus.


The chinese and especially cpc doctrine commanders are horribly bad. They are worse than those of say Bulgaria and Brazil for no reason at all.
The chinese may have lacked the large industries and research institutes of Japan but they did not beat Japan using 18th century tactics. On the contrary, the war against Japan and later the civil war layed the ground work for future guerilla warfare and was studied by many revolutionaries and military universities around the world and later helped the Chinese in regular combat in Korea.


The best Chinese general research team is of Wu (6). A person I know very little off. While the likes of Chaing, Mao and their main marshals lay in the area of 2-3 skill. Further more Deng Xiaoping is for some reason the best China has on industrial/agricultural development, something that seems to suggest a bias towards his economic policies of the 70's with very little knowledge of him in general. Chiang and his government were the first to truly begin some form of industrilization of China and helped free the peasants from serfdom which lead to an increase in production but they lack any good teams in this regard. Deng on the other hand had very little to do with developing industry, even in the 70's and especially not in the 30's and 40's.

In general there is a lack of events or new, better research teams for China.
A complete lack of events for CPC and an even worse outlook than in DD-A for its eventual seizure of land and victory due to the way the political map has been recolored and even the 1942 scenario disregards its military acquisitions which at least by now could have been artificially suggested and lets its most modern division be 3 1931 Mountain Divisions.

The commanders in the army are also of very low skill, even the majors.
Mao as a political leader is also deeply negatively biased towards some sort of corrupt kleptocrat instead of adding at least a few positive aspects like added militia/infantry production or something at all.

That he had any luck with attracting alliances of "dictatorial" nature is untrue. If dictatorial is supposed to suggest the USSR or even Nat-China then that is obviously wrong as he didn't manage to or want to keep either of them allied for long. In fact, he ended up coming closer to America than the USSR.

There isn't bias...there's lack of time to research and implement.

I'm a DH team member and I'm Chinese American. Research teams are messed up in DHF for CHC, but they are mostly correct for CHI in patch 1.03. I haven't had the time to implement CHC research teams since I've been focused on the 1914 scenario. You don't need to educate me about China since I go there once a year to visit family and I have taken a Chinese Economy class at my University. I've also watched many tv series on the Chinese war front, and I assure you I know the PoV of the war from the Chinese side, and I have also taken time to research PoV from the Japanese side. Of course my grandparents seem to think that I'm not very knowledgeable on what really happened, but I do ask them. I have no bias for or against CHI/CHC.


Wu Peifu should not be a commander in the 1936 scenario...if you want to add correct tech teams yourself, http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...CIP-for-DH&p=13075344&viewfull=1#post13075344

Regarding OOB's, they are horrific, I know, and have noticed for a long time. I don't have the time to mess with OOB's. They are on Wikipedia though. I know how strong CHC should be in the game. I know how the Eighth Route Army contributed. I also know how strong CHI should be in the game. However, some things like guerrilla warfare is not well represented by the game engine, and it is not easy to replicate them in game.
 
Last edited:

der Kriegsherr

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Do you have any reason for the bias against China and Communist China

What the hell are you talking about?
Even if the Chinas don't have the best commanders and techteams, their AI by default already cranks out a ridiculous number of Infantry/Militia.
Combine this with the People's Army Doctrine and the horrible AI for Japan, the Japanese usually don't stand a chance.

If anything, the Chinas should be nerfed to at least give Japan a fighting chance.
 

Limith

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What the hell are you talking about?
Even if the Chinas don't have the best commanders and techteams, their AI by default already cranks out a ridiculous number of Infantry/Militia.
Combine this with the People's Army Doctrine and the horrible AI for Japan, the Japanese usually don't stand a chance.

If anything, the Chinas should be nerfed to at least give Japan a fighting chance.

AI Japan might be bad, but human Japan is quite easy to play.

Thus, there won't likely be a "nerf" for China. Instead, the likeliest outcome will be buffs for AI Japan, although it is very hard to fix two front AI. More likely, any buffs (in 1.04/1.05) will be balance changes, some of which drawing from TRP and CCIP. TRP has a good AI Japan.

People's Army Doctrine in 1.03 is a hindrance to China, not a boon. Trust me. Manpower doctrine is quite bad during the Sino-Japanese War period (it gets better competitively ~ 1941 which is too late for China but mirrors USSR vs GER combat well).

Japan suffers from similar problems Germany does in 1914 scenario which is the inability to realistically in game mirror the same mobilization that it did in real life due to construction times and IC costs of DH. In addition, the Japanese division model (~ double the standard one) isn't accurately represented either. At the same time, China's division count isn't modeled properly either, however, this is offset in a way by the fact that Chinese divisions should only ever be at half strength based on real life but can be full strength in DH.

I won't go into logistics not being properly represented, nor will I go into the fact that Japan only ever had nominal control over the large provinces on the DH map as it controlled only cities and major transportation networks, and not the vast countryside.
 
Last edited:
Aug 22, 2007
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Hey guys.


Sure, I may have been a bit harsh. I like to start guns blazing to get some good deate going.
I have recently managed to conquer Manchuria, Korea, Tibet and some other parts by 1943 with CPC.
And this is even while Japan isn't at war with the US (which I just "fixed" :) ).

But like you said alot of the things are messed up why not fix them? Some things can be easily fixed.
In general I feel the lack of goodd research teams for Doctrines and random events are lacking. Perhaps an event that lowers org but massively increases org-regain would be a fun way to simulate a costly but effective guerilla war where waves of militia could strike after waves of militia.

Boosting research strength isn't to hard and takes little time, the teams don't need to be perfect.
I like the idea of someone who posted here long ago: Make an event that randomly fires off "internal province dissent" in various Mancurian provinces and/or an other one that spawns CPC militia in Manchuria instead of Partisans. This would require something much harder tho; a new, more defensive Manchurian AI.

Same could be done for the China of the Koumintag or China proper. Perhaps that event but it spawns either a CPC militia at 30% or a Nat-China militia at say 70% turning the territory into who ever spawned the militia. This would of course only happen on Japanese held territory. (But this is a difficult proposition, I know, just throwing it out there and it would require a boost in Japanese AI but perhaps also a puppet China happening more often so they can produce militia units for them, afterall I'm sure you know how many troops the puppet regime had.)

Use your imagination! :)


One big general lack in HoI 1 and 2 is dissent. Dissent is WAY to managable.
HoI 2 had some negative dissent events, HoI Darkest Hour barely has any. Once you get it to 0% it's never gonna bother you again. Some more negative dissent events for both Nat China and Com China would help offset the new bonuses.
 
Last edited:

Praetonia

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Chiang Kai-Shek was a buffoon. The fact he held a high rank or was well known doesn't mean he was competent! The best British land doctrine tech team is Basil Liddell Hart, a mere Captain who never held any major role in the military or government. It's not a case of bias.
 

Limith

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Hey guys.


Sure, I may have been a bit harsh. I like to start guns blazing to get some good deate going.
I have recently managed to conquer Manchuria, Korea, Tibet and some other parts by 1943 with CPC.
And this is even while Japan isn't at war with the US (which I just "fixed" :) ).

But like you said alot of the things are messed up why not fix them? Some things can be easily fixed.
In general I feel the lack of goodd research teams for Doctrines and random events are lacking. Perhaps an event that lowers org but massively increases org-regain would be a fun way to simulate a costly but effective guerilla war where waves of militia could strike after waves of militia.

Boosting research strength isn't to hard and takes little time, the teams don't need to be perfect.
I like the idea of someone who posted here long ago: Make an event that randomly fires off "internal province dissent" in various Mancurian provinces and/or an other one that spawns CPC militia in Manchuria instead of Partisans. This would require something much harder tho; a new, more defensive Manchurian AI.

Same could be done for the China of the Koumintag or China proper. Perhaps that event but it spawns either a CPC militia at 30% or a Nat-China militia at say 70% turning the territory into who ever spawned the militia. This would of course only happen on Japanese held territory. (But this is a difficult proposition, I know, just throwing it out there and it would require a boost in Japanese AI but perhaps also a puppet China happening more often so they can produce militia units for them, afterall I'm sure you know how many troops the puppet regime had.)

Use your imagination! :)


One big general lack in HoI 1 and 2 is dissent. Dissent is WAY to managable.
HoI 2 had some negative dissent events, HoI Darkest Hour barely has any. Once you get it to 0% it's never gonna bother you again. Some more negative dissent events for both Nat China and Com China would help offset the new bonuses.

Saying and doing something are two different things. It takes 5+ hours to research ~30 tech teams, ministers, etc for me, and events have to be tested, designing good events is not easy.

Take your partisan thing for example. That solution doesn't work since out of supply units perform terribly in combat. It HAS to be partisans since they are not penalized by out of supply. Similarly, it is NOT easy to code an event to trigger revolts in Japanese held territory throughout all of China (many many lines of code in CCIP) in a balanced way, nor is it easy to get the AI to be coded properly to both garrison important areas and perform well on offensive.

Every nation generally has a lack of good research teams. In NWO2 Mod, I managed to be up to date in every important technology as CHC and took over Taiwan with paratroopers + air transport by 1949. You just need to know how to prioritize.

That aside, I am waiting for new commands in 1.04 before working on tech teams, specifically new behavior for wake/sleep teams to make them in line with the way wake/sleep works for ministers.

Also, Jiang is not a buffoon. His tech team is fine as it is. Keep in mind research speed increases to ~150% in 1.03 by the 50s without any research investment, so it becomes a skill 6. Current proposals for his minister traits and desc:


Code:
	minister =  {
		trait		= "Jiang Jieshi_1" #Jiang Jieshi Pre-Unification
		id			= 133000
		name		= NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_1
		desc		= DPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_1
		position	= HeadOfState
		value		= 0
		command     = { type = production which = production when = national value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = resource which = money value = 0.2 }
		command     = { type = dissent value = 0.25 }
		command     = { type = unit which = all when = organisation value = 0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = all when = morale value = -0.15 }
		command     = { type = unit which = infantry when = time value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = infantry when = cost value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = militia when = time value = 0.10 }
		command     = { type = unit which = militia when = cost value = 0.10 }
		command     = { type = research which = armor when = time value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = supply_consumption value = -0.15 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = influence_nation when = all value = 10 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = trade when = all value = 10 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_cost which = all when = all value = -0.1 }
	}
	
	minister =  {
		trait		= "Jiang Jieshi_2" #Jiang Jieshi Victory
		id			= 133001
		name		= NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_2
		desc		= DPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_2
		position	= HeadOfState
		value		= 0
		command     = { type = production which = production when = national value = 0.05 }
		command     = { type = resource which = money value = 0.25 }
		command     = { type = dissent value = 0.10 }
		command     = { type = unit which = infantry when = time value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = infantry when = cost value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = militia when = time value = 0.10 }
		command     = { type = unit which = militia when = cost value = 0.10 }
		command     = { type = research which = land_doctrines when = time value = -0.05 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = influence_nation when = all value = 5 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = trade when = all value = 10 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_cost which = all when = all value = -0.1 }
	}

	minister =  {
		trait		= "Jiang Jieshi_3" #Jiang Jieshi Taiwan
		id			= 133002
		name		= NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_3
		desc		= DPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_3
		position	= HeadOfState
		value		= 0
		command     = { type = production which = production when = national value = 0.07 }
		command     = { type = resource which = money value = 0.25 }
		command     = { type = dissent value = 0.05 }
		command     = { type = unit which = all when = morale value = -0.10 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = influence_nation when = all value = 5 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_chances which = trade when = all value = 10 }
		command     = { type = diplomacy_cost which = all when = all value = -0.1 }
	}

Code:
NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_1;Pragmatic Patriot
DPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_1;
Jiang Jie Shi was a political and military leader of 20th century China with a mixed legacy. While corruption and incompetence flourished under his watch, much of the reasons behind the malaise were beyond his control. Instead, Jiang Jie Shi was a fierce patriot who used whatever means necessary to turn his view of a united China into reality. For him, ideology of any and all allied countries was of little importance as long as they supported his regime with the exception of communists within China. This opposition was mainly due to the fact the communists were the strongest opponent to his reign. If given the proper incentive though, this resigned generalissimo would gladly overlook any faction and enact any unpopular policy as long as doing so was in the best interests of China.
Code:
NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_1;Retired War Patriot
Code:
NPERSONALITY_JIANG_JIESHI_3;Disillusioned Statesman
 
Last edited:

Eh up me duck

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This is a game, not a history simulator. If you made China 100% accurate in terms of things in the game being like things in real life, the Chinese would probably just wipe the floor with Japan.
 

Gort11

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This is a game, not a history simulator. If you made China 100% accurate in terms of things in the game being like things in real life, the Chinese would probably just wipe the floor with Japan.

This statement makes no sense. Surely if they modelled China and Japan 100% accurately to real life, things would turn out like they did in real life?

PS: Darkest Hour devs, have you stopped beating your wives yet?
 

Limith

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This statement makes no sense. Surely if they modelled China and Japan 100% accurately to real life, things would turn out like they did in real life?

PS: Darkest Hour devs, have you stopped beating your wives yet?

???
 

Ofaloaf

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"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" is a classic question wherein either a yes or no answer is horribly damning. Likewise, a straight yes or no to "Do you have any reason for the bias against China and Communist China?" is likewise troublesome. Mr. Gort11 was likely attempting to draw parallels between the two questions.
 

Limith

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Well, if anyone's interested, here's my WIP redo of CHC tech teams just to show progress is being done since there are complaints about CHC tech teams.
Code:
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	1	1921	1924	industrial_engineering						# Historic 1924. Can start earliest 1921.
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	2	1924	1927	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus				# Military Leader
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	3	1927	1931	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus			
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	4	1931	1945	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus			
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	5	1945	1952	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus	centralized_execution		
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	5	1952	1963	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	individual_courage	centralized_execution	mathematics	
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	6	1963	1982	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	mathematics			# Civilian Role
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	4	1982	1992	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	mathematics			# Age
Lin Biao	T8301	1	1925	1927	infantry_focus	training					# This era also available to KMT if alliance.
Lin Biao	T8301	2	1927	1930	infantry_focus	training	large_unit_tactics				
Lin Biao	T8301	3	1930	1933	large_unit_tactics	centralized_execution	infantry_focus	training	individual_courage	decentralized_execution	
Lin Biao	T8301	4	1933	1937	small_unit_tactics	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	training	individual_courage	maneuver_tactics	# Peng was frontal attacker while Lin was a trickster. Historically he should have more decentralized stuff, however Centralized Execution is needed for manpower doctrine unfortunately.
Lin Biao	T8301	5	1942	1949	small_unit_tactics	decentralized_execution	large_unit_tactics	training	individual_courage	maneuver_tactics	# Was ill until 1942. Fell ill and mostly figurehead (subordinates fulfilled positions) after.
Mao Zedong	T8302	1	1919	1925	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage				
Mao Zedong	T8302	2	1925	1929	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	infantry_focus		
Mao Zedong	T8302	2	1929	1935	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	
Mao Zedong	T8302	3	1935	1959	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	
Mao Zedong	T8302	1	1959	1976	management	individual_courage	centralized_execution				
ERA Military Factory		2	1937	1945	mechanics	artillery	general_equipment	munitions			# Located in various areas in Shanxi (Ex: Huangya Cave), used by Eighth Route Army, largest manufacturing area in occupied territories, originally caves.
WXRASD Iron Works		2	1937	1945	mechanics	electronics	munitions				# Wuxiang Resistance Armed Self Defense Iron Works AKA Liugou Iron Works http://books.google.com/books?id=stmrDtqdM1UC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Liugou+Iron+Works&source=bl&ots=-EHASraDBa&sig=a_-zdpJp20GacSij0Qmx2hSda1E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZADtUJTXO4nyigLN_4DYDg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Liugou%20Iron%20Works&f=false
Red Army University		1	1927	1936							# http://baike.baidu.com/view/2328645.htm
People's Resistance Military-Political University		2	1936	1999							# Technically People's Anti-Japanese Military-Political University, but resistance is a better term that is more politically correct. http://baike.baidu.com/view/94827.htm
PLA Military Academy		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA Political Academy 		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA Logistics Academy 		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA National Defense University		5	1985	1999							# Unsleep on formation of PLA.
 

parnis

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This is a game, not a history simulator. If you made China 100% accurate in terms of things in the game being like things in real life, the Chinese would probably just wipe the floor with Japan.

In real life, China did have tremendous potential - which could not be realized. The massive corruption and incompetence of the Kuomintang was a big part of the reason, but so were regional language differences, mass illiteracy, and lack of industrial infrastructure like electric power generation. Any weapon more complicated than a bolt-action rifle or an 81mm mortar had to be imported.
 

Limith

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In real life, China did have tremendous potential - which could not be realized. The massive corruption and incompetence of the Kuomintang was a big part of the reason, but so were regional language differences, mass illiteracy, and lack of industrial infrastructure like electric power generation. Any weapon more complicated than a bolt-action rifle or an 81mm mortar had to be imported.

FYI, China domestically copied many weapons more complicated than just rifles and mortars. Just not in large quantities. I've been doing tons of research trying to find (unsuccessfully) any Communist China usable armories (besides specific geographical ones like Jiangnan in Shanghai or Jinlin in Nanjing, Guangdong, etc) prior to 1927.

Your other points except regional language differences are all valid. Written Chinese (Zhong Wen) is standardized throughout the regions. Spoken (Yue Yu, Han Yu, Guangdong Hua, Shanghai Hua, Putong Hua etc) is not (similar to extreme regional dialects).
 

Eh up me duck

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This statement makes no sense. Surely if they modelled China and Japan 100% accurately to real life, things would turn out like they did in real life?

PS: Darkest Hour devs, have you stopped beating your wives yet?
Only if the game was 100% accurate. It's not, it's a game. You can give Germany and France a historical OOB and Germany will still struggle to achieve Blitzkrieg, because the French AI will never be stupid enough to make the same mistakes in-game that they made in real life. Similarly, there's simply no way they could model the fractured nature of the Nationalist Army, so giving them an accurate OOB would make them vastly more effective than it should be.
 

Limith

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Only if the game was 100% accurate. It's not, it's a game. You can give Germany and France a historical OOB and Germany will still struggle to achieve Blitzkrieg, because the French AI will never be stupid enough to make the same mistakes in-game that they made in real life. Similarly, there's simply no way they could model the fractured nature of the Nationalist Army, so giving them an accurate OOB would make them vastly more effective than it should be.
It's very possible to model the nature of the Nationalist Army without making it more effective than it should be...no idea what you are talking about. I did it in CCIP for patch 1.01
 

Gort11

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Only if the game was 100% accurate. It's not, it's a game. You can give Germany and France a historical OOB and Germany will still struggle to achieve Blitzkrieg, because the French AI will never be stupid enough to make the same mistakes in-game that they made in real life. Similarly, there's simply no way they could model the fractured nature of the Nationalist Army, so giving them an accurate OOB would make them vastly more effective than it should be.

In terms of "modelling things" you can obviously give Japan a better doctrine than China. Bam, China has a big army, that sucks all the same. That's the quick and dirty version.

I'm sure Limith came up with a better way to do it.
 

parnis

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FYI, China domestically copied many weapons more complicated than just rifles and mortars. Just not in large quantities. I've been doing tons of research trying to find (unsuccessfully) any Communist China usable armories (besides specific geographical ones like Jiangnan in Shanghai or Jinlin in Nanjing, Guangdong, etc) prior to 1927.

Your other points except regional language differences are all valid. Written Chinese (Zhong Wen) is standardized throughout the regions. Spoken (Yue Yu, Han Yu, Guangdong Hua, Shanghai Hua, Putong Hua etc) is not (similar to extreme regional dialects).

Thanks! I have to stop talking about things I don't really know about. All I (thought I) knew was that not everyone spoke Mandarin.
 

Ubuntu

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Well, if anyone's interested, here's my WIP redo of CHC tech teams just to show progress is being done since there are complaints about CHC tech teams.
Code:
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	1	1921	1924	industrial_engineering						# Historic 1924. Can start earliest 1921.
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	2	1924	1927	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus				# Military Leader
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	3	1927	1931	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus			
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	4	1931	1945	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus			
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	5	1945	1952	management	industrial_engineering	individual_courage	infantry_focus	centralized_execution		
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	5	1952	1963	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	individual_courage	centralized_execution	mathematics	
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	6	1963	1982	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	mathematics			# Civilian Role
Deng Xiaoping	T8300	4	1982	1992	management	industrial_engineering	technical_efficiency	mathematics			# Age
Lin Biao	T8301	1	1925	1927	infantry_focus	training					# This era also available to KMT if alliance.
Lin Biao	T8301	2	1927	1930	infantry_focus	training	large_unit_tactics				
Lin Biao	T8301	3	1930	1933	large_unit_tactics	centralized_execution	infantry_focus	training	individual_courage	decentralized_execution	
Lin Biao	T8301	4	1933	1937	small_unit_tactics	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	training	individual_courage	maneuver_tactics	# Peng was frontal attacker while Lin was a trickster. Historically he should have more decentralized stuff, however Centralized Execution is needed for manpower doctrine unfortunately.
Lin Biao	T8301	5	1942	1949	small_unit_tactics	decentralized_execution	large_unit_tactics	training	individual_courage	maneuver_tactics	# Was ill until 1942. Fell ill and mostly figurehead (subordinates fulfilled positions) after.
Mao Zedong	T8302	1	1919	1925	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage				
Mao Zedong	T8302	2	1925	1929	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	infantry_focus		
Mao Zedong	T8302	2	1929	1935	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	
Mao Zedong	T8302	3	1935	1959	management	small_unit_tactics	individual_courage	training	decentralized_execution	infantry_focus	
Mao Zedong	T8302	1	1959	1976	management	individual_courage	centralized_execution				
ERA Military Factory		2	1937	1945	mechanics	artillery	general_equipment	munitions			# Located in various areas in Shanxi (Ex: Huangya Cave), used by Eighth Route Army, largest manufacturing area in occupied territories, originally caves.
WXRASD Iron Works		2	1937	1945	mechanics	electronics	munitions				# Wuxiang Resistance Armed Self Defense Iron Works AKA Liugou Iron Works http://books.google.com/books?id=stmrDtqdM1UC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Liugou+Iron+Works&source=bl&ots=-EHASraDBa&sig=a_-zdpJp20GacSij0Qmx2hSda1E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZADtUJTXO4nyigLN_4DYDg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Liugou%20Iron%20Works&f=false
Red Army University		1	1927	1936							# http://baike.baidu.com/view/2328645.htm
People's Resistance Military-Political University		2	1936	1999							# Technically People's Anti-Japanese Military-Political University, but resistance is a better term that is more politically correct. http://baike.baidu.com/view/94827.htm
PLA Military Academy		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA Political Academy 		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA Logistics Academy 		3	1945	1985							# Wake on formation of PLA.
PLA National Defense University		5	1985	1999							# Unsleep on formation of PLA.

Honestly, I think for the most part the tech teams are pretty good as they are for the CCP, if anything I'd really just like to see Zhou Enlai, represented, and GMD tech teams more developed.
I really don't think China could ever be very realistically modeled, there's just not many ways to model asymmetrical warfare in this game engine, except to levels of abstraction that make it boring and pointless. Maybe if the Chinese region had about 100 more provinces it'd....嗯 I should point out though, that i'm not saying it can't be fun to play as china, you just have to suspend your disbelief a little-it's a game!-
My biggest gripe for the Chinese factions are the ghosts in command of armies and in cabinet level positions. Or, little things like Zhang Guotao or some members of the 28 Bolsheviks being available after they were historically purged from the party,
Other than, The lack of substantive decision events & the lack of flavor events for any of the factions also bug me.
Limith 我想您会说中文,对不对? 如果您会懂我的话 认识你很高兴!
 

unmerged(30192)

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I think it is very difficult for the game mechanism of DH (or HOI in general) to imitate real life situation, especially when the game focus only on a small aspect (read: military) of governing a nation in a very short period of time and when you have something so supposedly disproportional such as a small Japan invading (with relative successful) a huge China