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King

Part Time Game Designer
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Dec 7, 2001
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  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Victoria 2 Beta
With Christmas coming and a hint of snow in the air it is time to think about going someplace warmer with perhaps just a little more daylight. However, before I do that I will of course give you one last developer diary. Today we are going to talk about how we changed production and created unemployment.

Let’s start with the workforce in factories. We have rethought how they work. Craftsmen are your workforce and increase both inputs and outputs of a factory. Clerks are your administrators; they use their skills to increase the outputs a factory uses. Capitalists in a state use their skills to decrease inputs. Thus, a balance of POP types is far more important. Having lots of Capitalists is good but only if you have the Craftsmen to take advantage of this.

We have also made several changes to how the economy works. Firstly, as we have already mentioned, POPs get money based on what they do. Thus, workers in a factory get paid based on the profits from the factory. The factory earns profits, which, in true socialist fashion, are divided up amongst the workers and Capitalists in the state (based on a formula we are currently tweaking and balancing.) A consequence of this is that if a factory is not earning much money the workers will not be well paid, and moving somewhere else (or becoming something else) will seem more attractive. This will simultaneously reduce supply of a good and, if their new job pays better, increase demand. This will push up prices, making the factory more profitable, which makes the remaining workers happier to remain there. The same thing applies for RGOs if technology makes grain farms more efficient, increasing production. Then supply increases while demand does not, which pushes down prices. Thus the workers earn less and start to think about moving elsewhere.

We have also changed how factories acquire their inputs. In the old Victoria the state bought the input goods for the factory; well, now no longer. Instead now the factory buys and pays for them itself. If it does not have enough money to buy the inputs for its workforce, it starts to fire workers, creating unemployment. We felt this was a worthwhile change for two reasons: firstly because outside a command economy, the government didn’t buy all the inputs for the factories; it was up to the factories. However, we also feel that this fits a command economy much better as well. Stalin did not sit there and tell people we need to buy more coal and iron to increase our steel production, he just said increase steel production. So we get the same effect here, in a command economy you build the factories and the state machine then takes care of the rest.

In a non free market economy you also have the option to subsidise factories to keep them working even if they are losing money, although to be more exact, under a command economy you get the option to not subsidise factories. You also have the option to set a priority for a factory in the state. This influences which factories POPs will work in. A higher priority factory in a state is more likely to pick up workers when they become available than a low priority one. This gives you a way of influencing how your economy runs without having to go into the nitty gritty of everyday management. We also feel that taking this macro economic approach is actually far closer to the reality of economic management in the era than a more micro one.

Next we have factory maintenance costs. In old Victoria these were paid by the crime fighting slider, in Victoria 2 they are paid for by the factory. The factory also pays for its maintenance in goods. To keep a factory in a tip top working condition it needs Cement (at the moment) or the building starts to deteriorate and production efficiency drops. This adds a fixed cost to factories' production, which feeds into the unemployment model we mentioned above. It also has another neat effect: we have created a year round demand for Cement, thus we no longer need to put in any artificial purchases of Cement, because people will always want to buy it.

Eventually things could get so dire that a factory cannot stay open; then it shuts down (unless subsidised) and is closed. A sad day to be sure, but these things happen.

Well, that wraps it up for the year. Here is a random screenshot because it is Christmas time.
 

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Sounds great! :eek: You guys just added lots of depth to the game without making it too complex.

Oh, and is these kinds of things (unemployment and factories firing workers) being told to the player with for example an icon on the side of the screen? Would help new players a lot if the game told them what is happening. So that the player wouldn't need to look through every province and menu to find out what is happening in his country.

We have a nice seperate production interface which has your states the factories in them and how they are doing.
 
My proposal for a change in how import-export-taxation should have been tweaked well before 1.03 patch for Victoria. One of the bottlenecks for an all-industrialized economy was that the government paid 100% value of import raw materials and recieved only tax percentage of export product value, thus, having a low tax industrialized economy was not a good choice.

I am not sure which particular axe you are grinding here. Could you be a little more specific?
 
Old Victoria, early versions.:

IE. Uruguay, steel plant

You pay 100% value of raw materials from national budget to produce steel
You have 25% tax
You recieve 25% product value into your budget, which can be less than the value of raw materials it takes to produce steel.

Bottom line, your workers are more productive than as ranchers, but you lose money, and since high taxes had other negative effects, raising taxes above 50% was kinda suicidal.

A more mathematic approach:

Uruguay as farmers make 3 money, 25% of that is 0,75, so you make 0,75 into treasuary

Uruguay as steel workers make 16 money, but eat 5 worth of coal and iron making a net effect of 11, but due to how the tax and imports worked, you get 25% of 16, which is 4 and pay 5, so with same tax, higher industrial output, you make a net into treasuary of -1. Now if you introduced a tax of 50% you made 8, a net of +3, and your workers still made 8 instead of 2,25, but were more likely to revolt or degrade to farmers and stuff.

Thank you for telling me this.
 
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Sounds very nice, although I think in reality as workers we are on the cost side of the factory not in the "share the profits" side.

About the capitalist POPs in socialist states they will still be there as a kind of representing a higher level of the administration or they will slowly disappear?

The buildings look very nice, great job. I'm guessing the round ones are the fortifications but what about the ports they are diferent level of ports or something else?

And a last question why is there a thunder inside the union jack?

Merry Christmas

Capitalists continue to have the effect of reducing factory inputs regardless of the government economic policy. So they still have a, more limited, role in command economy.
 
What level are those fortifications on the map? Are we going to see some greater and bigger fortifications?

I just shouted over the office to our 3D guy and he says his plan, as the moment, is three different fortification icons to help differentiate different levels.
 
I was thinking: not another shot of southern England. Then I noticed. It's a fascist UK flag as well as a changed country name: "Republic Brittania". Awesome.

One question though: does a change like this (from monarchy to fascist republic) require a change of the country tags or is it still the same tag but there's some file which tells the game what the flag and name of the country tag should be if it goes communist, fascist, etc.

The economy stuff sounds right to me. Was never much of a fan of the economic part, as I rather prefer the military and political side of Victoria. I remember you talking about the same kind of AI control HOI3 had. How extensive is the AI control in V2? Could I play an entire grand campaign with it on and still get somewhere near the prestige top with the AI reacting on my actions in the other aspects of the game?

Great update. From the sound of it, it has everything to become a great game.

It's all the same TAG. We also tested it on other countries and at the moment the USA is a proper civilised constitutional monarchy ;)
 
A question though: Will factory-maintainance be determined per factory-type or as a blunt abstraction that every factory requires the same amount of maintainance-goods? Will it be moddable, so that I could for example make a factory require Cement + Machine-Parts + Steel (or, if I added the ressource, energy?) ?

Depends what we need.
 
Would that formula be variable? I mean, the more socialist your economy is the more share for workers? That would make of party-on charge and laws or trade-unions relative force more important yet.

You could always just go for minimum wages?
 
Will the formula for the distribution of profits from the factory take the unemployment into consideration?

I mean with low unemployment the workers should get a bigger cut (higher wages) and vice versa. Overall I think the fact that it isn't the state that buys all resources is great!

Not directly. Essentially if there is low unemployment demand will be higher and thus the factory earns more money, so the workers will earn more.
 
Just to be clear: with "increasing inputs", you mean, that if I add a Craftsman to a factory, the factory needs more inputs for productions. It doesnt mean, that in some magic way the input stock is doubled or something else?

Cheers, Phelan

No what it means is this. If I double the number of craftsmen I double the output of the factory. I also double the required inputs of the factory at the same time. We did argue about the this in the office, perhaps throughput would be more accurate term?
 
Well sounds to me like your doubling the capacity, yeah?

also, and this is a very important point, one which you almost definitely won't answer but I'll ask anyway, when you say double the number of craftsmen, do you mean the amount of craftsmen or the amounf of craftsmen POPs? i.e., is production now proportionate to the amount fo workers rather than POPs?

Since I definately won't answer I am not going to say that it is the number of craftsmen and not the number of craftsmen POPs.
 
Yes, I think throughput is the more accurate term.

Another question: Is there a linear function behind this? I mean if I double the workforce the input and output is also doubled? Or can the factory get overcrowded, so the outputincrease is less than than doubled?

Like Victoria a factory has a fininte number of workers before the state (or a Capitalist) has to spend to expand it.
 
Ok, that remembers me that in Vicky1 monopoly, oligopoly and polipoly, gave different discounts on building new factories or expanding them. Is something similar planed?

No idea at the moment tbh.
 
Sounds impressive

One question regarding factories that bothered me in Victoria: factories are state-based so you could loose a few provinces and just loosing the workers but getting to keep the factories. Any changes planned on that?

None in that regard, factories remain state based.