CK3 - What's Next?

[Kazanov]

I feel a lot of the negativity around these forums stems from folks' unrealistic expectations of a pedantically accurate simulation where there's only an abstracted entertainment product.

At least for me its "viking fatigue", i loved Sunset Invasion because it was something new, unexpected and surprising....meanwhile the viking meme has been done until exhaustion by all sorts of media, i was playing Valheim an hour ago, a friend of mine posted an screenshot of his current run of AC:Valhalla yesterday, etc, etc, etc.

I cannot have unrealistic expectations of a pedantically accurate simulation because its 2021, Paradox changed a long time ago to attract new customers.

Im just tired.

 

[Nicolaes]

Something like this?

Yes! I've heard that the actual clothing is fairly accurate, with the chainmail being less so (although it does look aesthetically pleasing in the style choices).

 

[IndigoRage]

I like rules like that, as it adds more choice for people who want a more realistic experience, even if it makes the game intentionally more difficult.

I'm also a fan of short diplo range. Keeps wacky extremely long distance alliances and odd marriages from happening. I know both these things happened sometimes IRL, but I can only deal with so many marriage requests from steppe nomads.

I wonder how hard game rules even are to implement. As it is currently feels less than CK2 in some ways. There may be more options numerically but a lot of them relate to CK3-only content. (also where are the Seljuk, Ghaznavid, and Timurid events like in CK2)

 

[ComplexToast]

Also, the 'North Sea Empire' was never a real de jure empire. It was three independent kingdoms ruled in personal union by one monarch and when that monarch (Cnut the Great) died, Norway, Denmark and England each had their own separate rulers. The 'empire' was actually just one guy owning three kingdom titles and those titles ceased to be united beyond his lifetime.

The stuff in the free patch and existing mods are better than the $7 flavour pack.

The North Sea Empire as it will now appear in the game is clearly not intended to mimic history. You now simply have the option to take the idea of a united Scandinavia and England further than what was achieved historically during Canute's lifetime.

 

[Urkaun]

Yes! I've heard that the actual clothing is fairly accurate, with the chainmail being less so (although it does look aesthetically pleasing in the style choices).

One thing that bugs me in vanilla is Anglo-Saxons wearing mail underneath a surcoat, with mail mittens...

The Anglo-Saxons at least should be wearing similar mail shirts to the Norse i.e. the skirt being thigh-length and arms being elbow-length over a tunic.

What I love about the Community Flavour Pack mod is that aims to give all cultures their historically accurate armour, clothing etc. Not only that, but the clothing and armour changes and adapts by time period too based on the tech eras.

 

[Urkaun]

I'm also a fan of short diplo range. Keeps wacky extremely long distance alliances and odd marriages from happening. I know both these things happened sometimes IRL, but I can only deal with so many marriage requests from steppe nomads.

I wonder how hard game rules even are to implement. As it is currently feels less than CK2 in some ways. There may be more options numerically but a lot of them relate to CK3-only content. (also where are the Seljuk, Ghaznavid, and Timurid events like in CK2)

Yup, restricted diplo range is a must for me too. The More Game Rules mod adds a lot of cool rule options for role-play purposes that, in my opinion, should be in vanilla anyway. I can't imagine it's too difficult for PDX to implement them.

 

[Gwydden]

Yup, restricted diplo range is a must for me too. The More Game Rules mod adds a lot of cool rule options for role-play purposes that, in my opinion, should be in vanilla anyway. I can't imagine it's too difficult for PDX to implement them.

Honestly, what I miss most from CK2 other than non-aggression pacts is being able to have a set of game rules saved, because I always play with a lot of them (including the ones discussed thus far) and having to set them every time is obnoxious.

 

[Nicolaes]

One thing that bugs me in vanilla is Anglo-Saxons wearing mail underneath a surcoat, with mail mittens...

The Anglo-Saxons at least should be wearing similar mail shirts to the Norse i.e. the skirt being thigh-length and arms being elbow-length over a tunic.

Oh I don't really know that much about Anglo-Saxon armour (I'm one of those weirdos that tries to delve deeper into laws, government and cultural quirks instead), but in general a lot of media exaggerates the differences between all the Germanic groups while they were often slightly closer culturally than you'd expect.

 

[Undead Martyr]

Has there ever been a piece of viking age media done right?

Valheim?

 

[Siamese55]

Looking forward to this one. I understand Viking fatigue, but I have largely avoided it (rarely watch movies and TV anymore and have yet to pick up things like Valheim). Probably my favorite new things are adventuring and winter (really wanted winter), but I always love new flavor text. Plus the friend I usually play with is big into Norse culture. I will have no problem talking them into an Iceland rerun.

 

[InsidiousMage]

I think they're dumb too. That's why I had to download the More Rules mod so that the only formable empires are HRE, ERE, Persia and a few other historical medieval empires.

I don't want to be overly critical but I think it's a bit sad when modders who do it in their spare time for free do a better job than full-time paid employees at introducing new, fun and immersive content for PDX games.

As weird as I find some of the de jure empires they give newer players and AI something to work towards since there is a barrier to forming a custom empire that there isn't with de jure.

 

[Urkaun]

As weird as I find some of the de jure empires they give newer players and AI something to work towards since there is a barrier to forming a custom empire that there isn't with de jure.

That's fine, I'm not suggesting they should be removed from the game entirely. I just want the option to turn ahistorical de jure empires on or off in the game rules before I do a play-through so that the play-through is tailored to my tastes.

 

[IndigoRage]

Yup, restricted diplo range is a must for me too. The More Game Rules mod adds a lot of cool rule options for role-play purposes that, in my opinion, should be in vanilla anyway. I can't imagine it's too difficult for PDX to implement them.

Thanks, I'll have a look at it once I'm done being a masochist for achievements.

 

[Nicolaes]

The North Sea Empire as it will now appear in the game is clearly not intended to mimic history. You now simply have the option to take the idea of a united Scandinavia and England further than what was achieved historically during Canute's lifetime.

I actually have an issue with the fact that the name "North Sea" was kind of limited to my ethnic group (the Dutch) for a very long time as we used it in comparison to our South Sea (nowadays the IJsselmeer). At that time the Scandinavians called it the Western Sea while the Christian kingdoms referred to it as the Mare Germanicum and the "German Sea" was used for a while in English as well. I can't think of a more appropriate name for now though.

 

[InsidiousMage]

That's fine, I'm not suggesting they should be removed from the game entirely. I just want the option to turn ahistorical de jure empires on or off in the game rules before I do a play-through so that the play-through is tailored to my tastes.

As fun as I find the historicity of these kinds of games, I've always thought as them as more as alt-history simulators so the instance on near as possible seems kind of limiting. Sure, it's weird that Anglo-Saxons would rule the Danelaw but I feel the solutions would be a restore England decision, not get rid of the Danelaw. More options, not less, lead to better games. Getting rid of the non-historical empires would screw with the de jure system that is a fundamental part of the game so it's not surprising that you would need a mod to do so.

 

[Urkaun]

Oh I don't really know that much about Anglo-Saxon armour (I'm one of those weirdos that tries to delve deeper into laws, government and cultural quirks instead), but in general a lot of media exaggerates the differences between all the Germanic groups while they were often slightly closer culturally than you'd expect.

Yup. During the Viking Age, the clothing and armour was almost identical between Anglo-Saxons and Norse. Tunics were usually knee-length, mailshirts were elbow and thigh-length, most warriors used a spear as their main weapon with a seax or knife as their secondary weapon and a round-shield in their off-hand.

If you lived in 10th century Northumbria, the only way you'd tell the difference between an Anglo-Saxon from a Danish settler from a single face-to-face encounter is by hearing them speak their language.

 

[Basileus2]

Of course. Sweden is top priority.

based

 

[IndigoRage]

is being able to have a set of game rules saved

I have no idea why this was removed but it not being there has actively killed some good runs I had going because I didn't notice my rules were wrong.

in general a lot of media exaggerates the differences between all the Germanic groups while they were often slightly closer culturally than you'd expect.

Old Norse and Old English were mutually intelligible to some degree as well too, no?

Valheim?

Fighting a giant electric deer was a core part of Northman culture.

I can't think of a more appropriate name for now though.

How do you feel about the dev's solution to Balts being excluded in "Wendish Empire" being "South Baltic Empire".

Sure, it's weird that Anglo-Saxons would rule the Danelaw but I feel the solutions would be a restore England decision, not get rid of the Danelaw. More options, not less, lead to better games.

That wasn't what they were suggesting. They're actually promoting adding more game start decisions and I'm in favor of that as well as modifying the currently existing decision not to break England. They've been arguing for more options this whole time.

 

[Nicolaes]

Old Norse and Old English were mutually intelligible to some degree as well too, no?

How do you feel about the dev's solution to Balts being excluded in "Wendish Empire" being "South Baltic Empire".

It's not very set in stone when the North Germanic and West Germanic languages split. I'd imagine that, if they split around the same time as the First Germanic Consonant Shift that the difference would be like the difference between modern day Dutch and some of the Lower German languages - somewhat understandable if you pay close attention without too much training, but hard to follow in a continuous flowing conversation.

EDIT: About empires:

I think it's mostly a mechanics thing now, I personally feel that empires are a bit hard to justify as the title of Emperor wasn't really a thing outside of Christianity and the Asiatic world, but it might have to be implemented for gameplay purposes.

I just wish they gave them better names, such as maybe "Arch-Kingdom" or "High Kingdom" if it was an empire ruled by the Scandinavians or some of the pagan peoples to reflect it being a large union of several kingdoms rather than a wannabe Roman successor state. See InsidiousMage's comment below mine.

EDIT 2: man I really made some big grammar mistakes here

 

[InsidiousMage]

I just wish they gave them better names and also gave them some native names, such as maybe "Arch-Kingdom" or "High Kingdom" if it was an empire ruled by the Scandinavians or some of the pagan peoples to reflect it being a large union of several kingdoms other than a wannabe Roman successor state.

Norse empires are called High Kingdoms and several other cultures use other names as well.