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What has me the most excited about the HoI3 AI is the potential for it to model WW2 military doctrine. In HoI2 these doctrines were points on the technology tree, but with AI control in HoI3 I see the potential for the AI to leapfrog past limitations: will Germany follow a spearhead approach for the OKW, or can it include purely tactical objectives such as encirclements to kill armies rather than simply driving to victory points. Will it aim to create hedgehogs for Götterdämmerung, or try to establish a long front? Will the Soviet AI always follow the massive wave doctrine; will the Soviets employ defense in depth?

I'm very much looking forward to how this develops over time.
 
Considering the scope and variables involves, paradox games have always had commendable AI. It is always with the later patches however that this AI is polished to fun levels :p

At least your patches are a few mb in size paradox, unlike 'some others' who release patches in the hundreds of mb's and these patches often ignore the AI.
 
if I remember correctly from what one of the devs working on FEAR said, one of the reasons the AI turned out so well was due to bugs making the soldiers do irrational things in certain situations making them appear more like human opponents :D

Okay, I'm about as layman as you can get whilst still knowing what the letters 'A' and 'I' stand for, but something I've often wondered about is - how do you make AI make mistakes in a believable way? Now, we can all think of some examples of good AI (The original Halo is something I would suggest does it fairly well), and we can all think of some examples of bad AI (Sorry but TW does tend to suffer rather badly in this regard, fun as the games are.) - but it's really quite hard to think of good AI which makes believable mistakes. The mistakes tend to simply be egregious and fall on the side of poor AI. What interests me is the idea of AI simply making a bad call sometimes. I suppose the distinction I'm making is poor AI vs. AI that makes errors in judgment.

I guess if bugs work, they're as good a way as any xD
 
I hope I am unbiased as I have HoI II, EU III, both include expansions, and the latest 3 TW games.

Ultimately ETW is a FAR more complex game that the paradox games, paradox games have a huge amount of strategic depth, but as they operate on a very simple system there is far less complexity. This follows through to most complaints about ETW compared to EU III. ETW may not have the great historical accuracy, but EUIII has little to be accurate about, it lacks the complexity that ETW has which means it is far easier to be accurate, EU III has no worry about uniforms, or weapon ranges and accuracy. I could say more, but I am sure you have got the idea by now, ETW is far to complex to have the wonderful but simplistic AI that EU III or HoI can enjoy.
 
I hope I am unbiased as I have HoI II, EU III, both include expansions, and the latest 3 TW games.

Ultimately ETW is a FAR more complex game that the paradox games, paradox games have a huge amount of strategic depth, but as they operate on a very simple system there is far less complexity. This follows through to most complaints about ETW compared to EU III. ETW may not have the great historical accuracy, but EUIII has little to be accurate about, it lacks the complexity that ETW has which means it is far easier to be accurate, EU III has no worry about uniforms, or weapon ranges and accuracy. I could say more, but I am sure you have got the idea by now, ETW is far to complex to have the wonderful but simplistic AI that EU III or HoI can enjoy.

What? We aren't talking just the tactical map AI in TW series which while not horrible is far from level of other similar RTS games. TW is basically a strategic game with an RTS inside it. The strategic AI is terrible, much worse than almost any other major game I can think of.
 
I hope I am unbiased as I have HoI II, EU III, both include expansions, and the latest 3 TW games.

Ultimately ETW is a FAR more complex game that the paradox games, paradox games have a huge amount of strategic depth, but as they operate on a very simple system there is far less complexity. This follows through to most complaints about ETW compared to EU III. ETW may not have the great historical accuracy, but EUIII has little to be accurate about, it lacks the complexity that ETW has which means it is far easier to be accurate, EU III has no worry about uniforms, or weapon ranges and accuracy. I could say more, but I am sure you have got the idea by now, ETW is far to complex to have the wonderful but simplistic AI that EU III or HoI can enjoy.

All the TW games are in fact two games, the tactical one and the strategic one. It's possible (though extremely boring) to play the strategic game alone and never fight a single tactical battle. And on that level all you have are units with a little thumbnail portrait, a strength and an experience / weapons level.

ETW is good fun, at least for a while, but to say it has greater strategic depth than EU3 is just indefensible.
 
I hope I am unbiased as I have HoI II, EU III, both include expansions, and the latest 3 TW games.

Ultimately ETW is a FAR more complex game that the paradox games, paradox games have a huge amount of strategic depth, but as they operate on a very simple system there is far less complexity. This follows through to most complaints about ETW compared to EU III. ETW may not have the great historical accuracy, but EUIII has little to be accurate about, it lacks the complexity that ETW has which means it is far easier to be accurate, EU III has no worry about uniforms, or weapon ranges and accuracy. I could say more, but I am sure you have got the idea by now, ETW is far to complex to have the wonderful but simplistic AI that EU III or HoI can enjoy.

Then you have not played those game you claim you own. Ive found the totalwar games severley less complicated, and EU3 has less to be historical accurate about? Not even the newest empire totalwar covers all the nations and provinces that eu3 does. ETW covers Europe india parts of america and asia while Eu3 covers the world.
 
I get the feeling that Coldfire is talking from a technical standpoint. While his comments on battles are irrelevant, as paradox games don't feature 3D realtime battles, the nature of the way the strategic game is structured makes it difficult for the AI to cope with, as it has no tiled provinces to move between like say, EU3 does. That's just one problem, which I think is a valid one, seeing as how the AI from the first two total war games was much, much better, simply because it stuck to a more rigid province system. As a result, I still play both Medieval and Shogun regularly.

Anyway, before anyone else from the total war boards shows up (ahem ;)) we'd better get the conversation back on a strictly Hearts of Iron one, and following that vein, As someone who has not yet mastered HOI2's AI, I'm somewhat alarmed by talk of it further improving in HOI3 :( :p
 
Anyway, before anyone else from the total war boards shows up (ahem ;)) we'd better get the conversation back on a strictly Hearts of Iron one, and following that vein

Hear, hear.
 
What? We aren't talking just the tactical map AI in TW series which while not horrible is far from level of other similar RTS games. TW is basically a strategic game with an RTS inside it. The strategic AI is terrible, much worse than almost any other major game I can think of.
Funnily enough, I've always viewed it the other way around since I first played Shogun: TW. CA doesn't make strategy games, they make tactical battle simulators for squad to platoon sized base units with a skin-thin strategy wrapping. At this they used to be second to none. That the strategy wrapping underperformed on all levels used to be a minor issue since you got fun battles.

In other words: Centurion: Defender of Rome for a new generation and, like that game, great fun.

The real problem with the CA games only arises if one approaches them like a strategy games player who cares about being opposed on the strategic level.

That, in itself, is nothing new with E:TW - what is new is that over the last few iterations of TW franchise the CA developers have tried to move the game in the direction of a strategy game by increasing the strategic depth - and consistently underperforming: They have never managed to produce a TW game that was the slightest challenge on the strategic level.

Reading the CA thread on this little controversy, it seems that there's a distinct lack of understanding the differences between tactics and strategy; Given that, can anybody be surprised that some of them are willing to forgive the utterly atrocious strategic AI in E:TW because it has an overall decent tactical AI? Or that somebody fails to understand that when Johan criticises the AI in a strategy game (giving specific examples, even), he focuses on the performance of the strategic level AI?

Can it surprise anybody that some people might consider adding a shitload of data for different units in the tactical game or having a higher theoretical resolution of intersection points (contrast "all over the map" with "provinces") to represent "complexity", while merely making a game that can compete on a strategic level with somewhat meaningful diplomacy would be considered "simple"?

Heck, the same thing happens in this very forum, and you guys should know better: A HoI3 with 10,000 provinces is not inherently more complex as a game to one with 2,000, and yet there's the occasional gushing over 10,000!!!! I guarantee you that should the unthinkable come to pass that HoI3 plays less competitively than HoI2, nobody should accept "it is more complex because there are more provinces" as an excuse for the state - and here we are talking about a series that has traditionally been heavily crippled in the AI playing abilities due to being heavily scripted.

I mean, you just have to read Coldfire's post: Having a huge amount of strategic depth in a strategy game does not make it complex, nor does have a strategic AI mostly capable of dealing with that depth. :D


I love the earlier TW games for what they were, but it is hard for me to see how anybody who has played strategy games focusing on strategy (or even worse, grand strategy!) can consider them to be complex in a strategic sense.


I can totally understand the point of view (recently exposed on page 4, post 71 and onwards of that TWCenter thread) that TW games are "funnier and more exciting" for people who like tactical battles when compared with how Paradox games deal with it. Sure, they get carried a bit away with the analogy, but if it is the details of the individual battles that are important to you rather than the grand strategy of your nation, that view has a lot going for it. :)
 
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Ok, just a consumer remark (short one!)

- Medieval TW 2 is cool, but you get sick of it in a month.

- Empire TW is a disappointment.

- HOI 2 i've been playing for more than 2 years and never get sick of it.

Conclusion. Paradox gets the edge so far.
 
this

would be far more fun if we knew more about HoI3 AI, so we had something more substantial to discuss then some other games AI )))
 
Sorry, I don't have time to talk about our AI atm, but I was not aware of there being an AI in Empire Total War.

Oh snap!

:rofl:

Well I think this is the biggest complain about ETW is the the AI. Or the lack of...
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
The real problem with the CA games only arises if one approaches them like a strategy games player who cares about being opposed on the strategic level.

That, in itself, is nothing new with E:TW - what is new is that over the last few iterations of TW franchise the CA developers have tried to move the game in the direction of a strategy game by increasing the strategic depth - and consistently underperforming: They have never managed to produce a TW game that was the slightest challenge on the strategic level.

Reading the CA thread on this little controversy, it seems that there's a distinct lack of understanding the differences between tactics and strategy; Given that, can anybody be surprised that some of them are willing to forgive the utterly atrocious strategic AI in E:TW because it has an overall decent tactical AI? Or that somebody fails to understand that when Johan criticises the AI in a strategy game (giving specific examples, even), he focuses on the performance of the strategic level AI?

Can it surprise anybody that some people might consider adding a shitload of data for different units in the tactical game or having a higher theoretical resolution of intersection points (contrast "all over the map" with "provinces") to represent "complexity", while merely making a game that can compete on a strategic level with somewhat meaningful diplomacy would be considered "simple"?

Heck, the same thing happens in this very forum, and you guys should know better: A HoI3 with 10,000 provinces is not inherently more complex as a game to one with 2,000, and yet there's the occasional gushing over 10,000!!!! I guarantee you that should the unthinkable come to pass that HoI3 plays less competitively than HoI2, nobody should accept "it is more complex because there are more provinces" as an excuse for the state - and here we are talking about a series that has traditionally been heavily crippled in the AI playing abilities due to being heavily scripted.

I mean, you just have to read Coldfire's post: Having a huge amount of strategic depth in a strategy game does not make it complex, nor does have a strategic AI mostly capable of dealing with that depth. :D

Well its a given that the more complex a game is the much difficult it is to program and AI unless everything about how the game operates is very nebulous so the player never figures out what is exactly the best course for a certain circumstance.

There are more than just chess games which are very difficult for even advanced player to beat. A simple set of rules with predefined operating area makes a computer which can perform many calculations for every move much more difficult to beat in a game.

TW series I play because of the tactical battles and limited sense of history, the mods of course extend that from the vanilla and make it more than just a 1 month bored and throw away game despite the lackluster AI.

I don't think TW AI in tactical battles is very impressive, for the scale and unit type actions involved there are way more impressive RTS games which do far more to have AI consider height, cover, paper-rock-scissors unit oppositions etc. Not that it isn't fun because of the scale and different ways to limit yourself or fight vastly outnumbered every battle and try for a heroic victory but its a pretty simple AI.

The strategic map level one is what bothers me most... just sends armies running around in circles much of the time and other times sits for no reason near an enemy city it might capture for several turns counting something.

Not even comparing it to paradox games but for the amount of actions it can perform(build army, build structure, build agent, build fleet, move army, move fleet, action battle, action spy, action assasinate/sabatage) it still manages to be atrocious. That is fairly limited actions compared to other RTS or even especially turn based which is operates as.
 
Complexity arises from the amount of variables included in decisionmaking. Not from the number of decisions that need to be made.
 
Although I do apprecaite that everyone has an opinion about ETW (apart from me it seems as I never bought it). I think that perhaps we could move this dicussion back onto HoI3. We've all had our fun but let's play the discuss HoI3 game now, otherwise King we throw a sulk and take the ball home with him

Appreciate.
:p

As in "we appreciate TW Rehab dropping by, although the circumstances are admittedly less than ideal".
 
What bothers me is that some people are offended because it was "unprofessional" of Johan to make that comment. I wasn't aware that by being a developer, Johan relinquishes his rights as a customer and a citizen of a free society.

I think that games would be an order of magnitude better if instead of hiding behind marketing buzzwords, the devs said it like it is. That is, said it like Johan :p
 
What bothers me is that some people are offended because it was "unprofessional" of Johan to make that comment. I wasn't aware that by being a developer, Johan relinquishes his rights as a customer and a citizen of a free society.
It is customary to behave nicely and not criticise your competition in public; Speaking in derogatory terms about a competitor's offering is considered unprofessional behaviour, especially when conducted in a setting where you can reasonably be expected to represent not just yourself but your company. At the worst of times, it leads to idiotic tit-for-tat discussions and antagonism that far surpass the minor issues that caused it in the first place.

OTOH, when you are asked whether you have adopted a certain methodology and are fed a straight line like:
OP said:
AFAIK, Empire: Total War uses this concept (not just F.E.A.R. :p) to great success
The temptation to bitch about what that "great success" feels like as a player has got to be enormous. :D That said, the right place to bitch would be on the quarter to three forums.
 
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