This thread is to concentrate discussion about the SE Asian region that originally started in the AGC & EEP: Far East thread which has a more general focus.
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
Phillip V: i think we should start talking about merging for the SE Asian region. Perhaps it is a good idea to start a new thread for SE Asia. that way there will be more attention. our current priority is to merge whatever already in EEP1.4.1 and AGCbeta2.3b7a. I think ur SE Asian mod is not officially in EEP 1.4.1 and wasn't discussed all that much in EEP, but I'd still like it to be included in the merger somehow. it's harder to justify inclusion into the merge unless it is discussed and approved by consensus of the modding community here or in either project. i dont think there will be a lot of issues though, since unfortunately not all that many people downloaded your mod yet, as far as I can tell. so i'll start the ball rolling:
the vietnamese revolt: i'd tend to think China is given an easy go for being able to gain the vietnamese culture as early as 1453. even if the Le Loi revolt failed, sporadic revolt should still occur for a few decades, and China should still not gain the vietnamese culture a few decades after that.
Vietnam split: this is a more fundamental issue, i guess. vietnam is simulated as 2 nations when they are actually under the name of one dynasty. true it is that they are automonous within the spheres of control of the two families, but i m not sure if this should make them 2 nations. AFAIK, a similar situation also exists in Japan, with different families contirolling different parts of Japan warring against each other, but I don't think anyone thinks that Japan should be split into several nations in EU2, rather events that create revolts are used to similate wars between factions in the country. i know this is a fundamental flaw in the game, which doesnt have a way of adequately simulating civil wars (as opposed to rebellions), but it is a matter we have to decide.
well i never said that the same for japan should automatically apply to vietnam, and you have raised some good arguments why they should be differentiated. however, unlike what you said, vietnam wasnt divided for the entire period, it was divided for just over 2 centuries of the 400 years game period. and it's also technically not true that the lesser regime finally taking over, the Tay Son brothers were in fact peasants originally not related to either faction. regarding the comparison with Manchu-Ming dispute, severe revolts was in fact what paradox used to "create" the Manchu conquest. In any case, there is suggestions in the AGC China thread that Manchu should not exist (be part of Ming) until they declared independece from Ming, from which point it is an entirely different story from the situation in Vietnam.Originally posted by John Meixner
One reason nobody is suggesting it for Japan is that effectively considering the 400 year time period Japan was united for half of it, and even when it wasn't it was isolated on the Japanese islands without external interference. Vietnam however was two radically different authorities one technically in authority, but the other basically in revolt for almost the entire period and the result ending in the revolter taking over. By your argument the whole Manchu-Ming dispute could be resolved by just handling the Manchu conquerst as a revolt. I think that would be less distorting than merging the ngyuen and Ly regimes in Viet
Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
continuing the discussion from the Far East thread:
well i never said that the same for japan should automatically apply to vietnam, and you have raised some good arguments why they should be differentiated. however, unlike what you said, vietnam wasnt divided for the entire period, it was divided for just over 2 centuries of the 400 years game period. and it's also technically not true that the lesser regime finally taking over, the Tay Son brothers were in fact peasants originally not related to either faction. regarding the comparison with Manchu-Ming dispute, severe revolts was in fact what paradox used to "create" the Manchu conquest. In any case, there is suggestions in the AGC China thread that Manchu should not exist (be part of Ming) until they declared independece from Ming, from which point it is an entirely different story from the situation in Vietnam.
The following is my opinion on this topic: I don't see why isolation with no external interference should mean that the country should be united rather than divided. in fact I see argument the other way. the existence of neighbouring nations forces a comparison in terms of the status of the respective nations and representing them as 2 nations will weaken Vietnam too much and fail to represent the territorial integrity of Vietnam that in fact had been the case for many centuries even though it is internally divided. the Tay Son uprising for example was a rebellion that spread across the whole of Vietnam and I support it being represented as revolts. on the other hand if there are no external forces, it would be easier to represent different factions as different nations. With Japan, the way the division is represented is to have revolts only when a major war occurred between the factions, this could also be done for Vietnam.
in the other thread about handsoff game, Jester has observed that Ayutthaya and Myanmar become the major powers. I think the outcomes may vary quite a lot.Phillip V said:Ayutthaya and Myanmar are the big losers. Ayutthaya was reduced to a one province minor in both tests. This may be due to its early attempts to fight a two front war with Malacca and Cambodia. Myanmar disappeared off the map in both tests. Something needs to be done to stengthen these two nations, who are historically supposed to be the main powers of the region.
Well historically, Dai Viet only gradually kept on picking off at the Champan northern border. Nevertheless, events should be made that convert the provinces to Vietnamese culture and religion some time after Vietnamese annexation. That actually makes me wonder if Cham culture is necessary at all, being that they only exist for a short period of the game. Then again, I do not mind if there are enough culture tags. I like the flavor.Sun_Zi_36 said:in the other thread about handsoff game, Jester has observed that Ayutthaya and Myanmar become the major powers. I think the outcomes may vary quite a lot.
With Champa, may be events could be made to allow Dai Viet to annex it outright (and subsequently remove Cham culture) once Dai Viet had occupied the whole of Champa.
If that's true, then putting the capital in the southern of their two provinces seems sufficient for getting historical results most of the time. That will allow them to grab 664 in the first war, and 665 in the second. A reasonable event would then be:Phillip V said:Well historically, Dai Viet only gradually kept on picking off at the Champan northern border. Nevertheless, events should be made that convert the provinces to Vietnamese culture and religion some time after Vietnamese annexation.
event = {
id = 157001 #assuming this id is free...
random = no
country = DAI
trigger = {
owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
}
name = "Incorporation of the Cham"
desc = "With the defeat of Champa, the Cham were incorporated into Dai Viet."
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1465 }
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }
offset = 180
action_a = {
name = "OK"
command = { type = conversion which = 664 }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 664 value = vietnamese}
command = { type = conversion which = 665 }
command = { type = provinceculture which = 665 value = vietnamese}
}
}
There's no practical limit on available cultures.Phillip V said:That actually makes me wonder if Cham culture is necessary at all, being that they only exist for a short period of the game. Then again, I do not mind if there are enough culture tags. I like the flavor.
Ayutthaya - 30k
Cambodia - 70k
Champa - 40k
Lan Xang - 33k
Lan Na - 16k
Mon - 17k
Burma - 8k
Shan States - 33k
Ark - 20k