AGC & EEP: SE Asia

Suppanut · Jan 31, 2004

Phillip V said:
Wouldn't all those thai-cultured orovinces in the current version allow for an overpowered thai state?

Historically, Ayutthaya royal (state) cultures is Thai in Chao Praya delta, Thai in non-muslim of upper part of Malay penisula, Mon in southern part and lower part of Irrawadi delta in Myanmar and Khmar in cambodia (Since they had same idea about what is civilized.). While Shan was kept close relation during king Naresuan only (most of era, thai treat shan as barberian.) and Laos in Lan Na and Lan Xang was treat as barberic uncivilize people due to diffrent culture prototype that they try to mimic (It is easy to say that thai is khmarize tai people while shan and western laos is burmarize tai people.) even they both have very similar language(almost the same).
Ayutthaya should have optional event about their idea about universe/expansion and choices should be expand influence to the civilized one (mon&khmer) or expand to the tip of penisula according to mahachakapat legend in buddhism as Ayutthaya try at the begining of EUII era ( legend say legendry emperor control whole penisula and both Ayutthaya and Burma kings claimed that he is that emperor.) or Ayutthaya should expand north and northeast to civilizing his breathen (laos and shan). And this event should be in about at the end of 15 century before contact with first european(Portugal).

unmerged(10128) · Feb 1, 2004

Phillip V said:
Well historically, Dai Viet only gradually kept on picking off at the Champan northern border. Nevertheless, events should be made that convert the provinces to Vietnamese culture and religion some time after Vietnamese annexation. That actually makes me wonder if Cham culture is necessary at all, being that they only exist for a short period of the game. Then again, I do not mind if there are enough culture tags. I like the flavor.

I will do some more testing.

we have enough culture tags, so thats not a worry (in fact heaps of empty tags if all the other cultures are converted to native like they did in AGC).

Instead of immediate annexation, we could make Champa move its capital through events once Dai Viet occupies its northern province.

doktarr said:

If that's true, then putting the capital in the southern of their two provinces seems sufficient for getting historical results most of the time. That will allow them to grab 664 in the first war, and 665 in the second. A reasonable event would then be:

Code:

 event = { 
	id = 157001 #assuming this id is free... 
	random = no 
	country = DAI 
	trigger = { 
                owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
                owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
	}
	name = "Incorporation of the Cham" 
	desc = "With the defeat of Champa, the Cham were incorporated into Dai Viet."
	style = 1 
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1465 } 
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }
	offset = 180
	action_a = { 
		name = "OK" 
		command = { type = conversion which = 664 }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = 664 value = vietnamese}
		command = { type = conversion which = 665 }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = 665 value = vietnamese}
		} 
}

Seem OK?

the slaughtering of Chams (or at least pushing them to remote areas or neighbouring countries) and the move of Vietnamese from north to south i think would certainly cause substantial changes in population numbers, which would be an overall decrease. just expanding on that, it would be interesting if the Vietnamese can choose not to slaugher the Chams and get a chance at eventually incorporating their culture as state culture.

Phillip V said:
I want to bring:
- Ayutthaya up to 45k
- Cambodia down to 35k
- Champa down to 20k
- Lan Na up to 20k
- Burma up to 25k

That should balance things out quite a bit, along with the move of the Champan capital.
Also, why is there not a port in the Mekong Delta?

that reminds me, i think i did make changes to SE Asian populations for AGC, and i think i may have forgotten to implement it in the merger. otherwise, your population numbers seems about right, but i will check whether i also made changes there. i dont know why theres no port. we should add one.

Suppanut said:
Historically, Ayutthaya royal (state) cultures is Thai in Chao Praya delta, Thai in non-muslim of upper part of Malay penisula, Mon in southern part and lower part of Irrawadi delta in Myanmar and Khmar in cambodia (Since they had same idea about what is civilized.). While Shan was kept close relation during king Naresuan only (most of era, thai treat shan as barberian.) and Laos in Lan Na and Lan Xang was treat as barberic uncivilize people due to diffrent culture prototype that they try to mimic (It is easy to say that thai is khmarize tai people while shan and western laos is burmarize tai people.) even they both have very similar language(almost the same).

can you provide info as to whether, if Ayutthaya ruled the Shan and western Laos people, culture would become such a handicap to their rule to the extent that Ayutthaya would encounter substantial difficulties in collecting taxes in those areas, raising armies in those areas, etc.??

doktarr · Feb 1, 2004

Sun_Zi_36 said:
Instead of immediate annexation, we could make Champa move its capital through events once Dai Viet occupies its northern province.

Something like this?

Code:

event = {
id = ?????
trigger = {
     war = { country = DAI country = CHA }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     control = { province = 664 data = DAI }
     NOT = { stability = 3}
}
random = no 
country = CHA
name = "The Dai Viet are at our capital!"
desc = "The Dai Viet have broken through our defense in the north! We must relocate our court to our southern territory."
style = 1 
date = { year = 1465 }
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1819 }
action_a = { 
     name = "So it must be"
     command = { type = stability value = -1 }
     command = { type = capital which = 665 }
} 
}

Sun_Zi_36 said:
the slaughtering of Chams (or at least pushing them to remote areas or neighbouring countries) and the move of Vietnamese from north to south i think would certainly cause substantial changes in population numbers, which would be an overall decrease. just expanding on that, it would be interesting if the Vietnamese can choose not to slaugher the Chams and get a chance at eventually incorporating their culture as state culture.

How about this?

Code:

event = { 
id = 157001 #assuming this id is free... 
random = no 
country = DAI 
trigger = { 
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
}
name = "Decimation of the Cham" 
desc = "With the defeat of Champa, the Cham people were slaughtered, driven out, or otherwise incorporated into Dai Viet.  A more reconciliatory policy would have been possible, however."
style = 1 
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1465 } 
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }
offset = 180
action_a = { 
     name = "Drive the Cham out" 
     command = { type = population which = 663 value = -5000 } # settlers
     command = { type = conversion which = 664 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 664 value = vietnamese} 
     command = { type = population which = 664 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = conversion which = 665 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 665 value = vietnamese}
     command = { type = population which = 665 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 665 value = -1 }
     command = { type = stability value = 1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
     command = { type = badboy value = 2 }
} 
action_b = { 
     name = "Accept the Cham as part of Dai Viet" 
     command = { type = add_countryculture which = cham }
     command = { type = stability value = -2 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
} 
}

Jayavarman · Feb 2, 2004

Sun_Zi_36 said:
it would be interesting if the Vietnamese can choose not to slaugher the Chams and get a chance at eventually incorporating their culture as state culture.

What negative impact would that bring? As I see it, in doktarr's last event, it is too "easy" to obtain champan culture.

doktarr · Feb 2, 2004

Phillip V said:
What negative impact would that bring? As I see it, in doktarr's last event, it is too "easy" to obtain champan culture.

I wouldn't really say so. Since those two provinces are the only champan cultured provinces, getting that culture is the same as converting the culture of those two provinces. So the real differences between the events are, in rough order of importance:

a) free conversions, taxvalue hit, centralization boost, stability boost, population hit

b) centralization hit, stability hit.

Only the taxvalues keep this from being a total landslide; despite them I'd still pick (a) for the conversions, unless I was roleplaying.

|AXiN| · Feb 6, 2004

I found Phillip V's mod for EEP to be excellent, but my tests differed - China got kicked out of Dai Viet on schedule, then Dai Viet got distracted by Lan Xang for about a century. Cambnodia got screwed over by an alliance of Ayutthaya and Lan Xang, being reduced to 2 provinces and repeatedly being vassalised and/or forced to give up money. Champa did their best to get involved in Dai Viet, but eventually got annexed by one of the Chinese revolters. Most of the Burma region got diploannexed by Tibet, too. *sigh*

unmerged(10128) · Feb 6, 2004

doktarr said:
I wouldn't really say so. Since those two provinces are the only champan cultured provinces, getting that culture is the same as converting the culture of those two provinces. So the real differences between the events are, in rough order of importance:

a) free conversions, taxvalue hit, centralization boost, stability boost, population hit

b) centralization hit, stability hit.

Only the taxvalues keep this from being a total landslide; despite them I'd still pick (a) for the conversions, unless I was roleplaying.

for the first event, should there be a choice not to move the capital? i mean it doesnt mean much but just to be flexible for human play.

for the second event, i kind of agree with Phillip V. may be there could be 3 choices. driving cham out would be the same except no stab increase and add manpower decrease. second choice would be leave it as inferior culture with increase revolt risk etc, and third choice shouldn't allow Dai Viet to gain Cham culture until several decades later with slightly increased RR, reduced admin ability of the nation and cost some money.

doktarr · Feb 6, 2004

Well, changing the first event is easy, obviously:

Code:

event = {
id = ?????
trigger = {
     war = { country = DAI country = CHA }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     control = { province = 664 data = DAI }
     NOT = { stability = 3}
}
random = no 
country = CHA
name = "The Dai Viet are at our capital!"
desc = "The Dai Viet have broken through our defense in the north! Shall we relocate our court to our southern territory?"
style = 1 
date = { year = 1465 }
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1819 }
action_a = { 
     name = "So it must be"
     command = { type = stability value = -1 }
     command = { type = capital which = 665 }
} 
action_b = { 
     name = "We shall stand firm against this threat"
     command = { type = stability value = -3 }
} 
}

But for the second event, how would I make an event trigger 40 years later when I have no idea when the initial event will happen? This is actually a problem that comes up a lot.

unmerged(10128) · Feb 6, 2004

doktarr said:

Well, changing the first event is easy, obviously:

Code:

event = {
id = ?????
trigger = {
     war = { country = DAI country = CHA }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     control = { province = 664 data = DAI }
     NOT = { stability = 3}
}
random = no 
country = CHA
name = "The Dai Viet are at our capital!"
desc = "The Dai Viet have broken through our defense in the north! Shall we relocate our court to our southern territory?"
style = 1 
date = { year = 1465 }
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1819 }
action_a = { 
     name = "So it must be"
     command = { type = stability value = -1 }
     command = { type = capital which = 665 }
} 
action_b = { 
     name = "We shall stand firm against this threat"
     command = { type = stability value = -3 }
} 
}

But for the second event, how would I make an event trigger 40 years later when I have no idea when the initial event will happen? This is actually a problem that comes up a lot.

1st event: just came across to me that moving capitals should cost some money, but you would get robbed of even more if you dont move capital.

2nd event: i guess the only way is to divide it into different periods. E.G. detects whether Champa is conquered between 1419-1479, sets a flag if option c is chosen, then the subequent event would detect the flag in year 1519. that way the adding state culture is ensured to fire at least 40 years (at most 100 years) after conquest. another event would detect whether Champa is conquered in the next period between 1479-1539, setting a flag with the subsequent event detecting the flag in year 1579. Repeat.

doktarr · Feb 6, 2004

OK, one last go at this:

Code:

event = { 
id = 157001
random = no 
country = DAI 
trigger = { 
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
}
name = "Decimation of the Cham" 
desc = "With the defeat of Champa, the Cham people were slaughtered, driven out, or otherwise incorporated into Dai Viet.  A more reconciliatory policy would have been possible, although its effects may not have been seen for years."
style = 1 
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1465 } 
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1485 }
offset = 180
action_a = { 
     name = "Drive the Cham out" 
     command = { type = population which = 663 value = -5000 } # settlers
     command = { type = conversion which = 664 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 664 value = vietnamese} 
     command = { type = population which = 664 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = provincemanpower which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = conversion which = 665 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 665 value = vietnamese}
     command = { type = population which = 665 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 665 value = -1 }
     command = { type = provincemanpower which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
     command = { type = badboy value = 2 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157002 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157006 }
} 
action_b = { 
     name = "Begin incorporating the Cham into Dai Viet" 
     command = { type = stability value = -2 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157002 }
} 
action_c = { 
     name = "Leave the Cham alone" 
     command = { type = stability value = 1 }
     command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 24 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157002 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157006 }
} 
}

event = { 
id = 157002
random = no 
country = DAI 
trigger = { 
     owned = { province = 664 data = -1 }
     owned = { province = 665 data = -1 }
}
name = "Decimation of the Cham" 
desc = "With the defeat of Champa, the Cham people were slaughtered, driven out, or otherwise incorporated into Dai Viet.  A more reconciliatory policy would have been possible, although its effects may not have been seen for years."
style = 1 
date = { day = 2 month = january year = 1485 } 
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1550 }
offset = 180
action_a = { 
     name = "Drive the Cham out" 
     command = { type = population which = 663 value = -5000 } # settlers
     command = { type = conversion which = 664 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 664 value = vietnamese} 
     command = { type = population which = 664 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = provincemanpower which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = conversion which = 665 }
     command = { type = provinceculture which = 665 value = vietnamese}
     command = { type = population which = 665 value = -5000 }
     command = { type = provincetax which = 665 value = -1 }
     command = { type = provincemanpower which = 664 value = -1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
     command = { type = badboy value = 2 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157007 }
} 
action_b = { 
     name = "Begin incorporating the Cham into Dai Viet" 
     command = { type = stability value = -2 }
     command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -1 }
     command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 1 }
} 
action_c = { 
     name = "Leave the Cham alone" 
     command = { type = stability value = 1 }
     command = { type = ADM which = -1 value = 24 }
     command = { type = sleepevent which = 157007 }
} 
}

event = { 
id = 157006
random = no 
country = DAI 
trigger = { 
     event = 15001
}
name = "Incorporation of the Cham" 
desc = "The policy of incorporation with the Cham has finally borne fruit."
style = 1 
date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1525 } 
offset = 30

action_a = { 
     name = "The Cham join Dai Viet" 
     command = { type = add_countryculture which = cham }
     command = { type = stability value = 2 }
} 
}

event = { 
id = 157007
random = no 
country = DAI 
trigger = { 
     event = 15002
}
name = "Incorporation of the Cham" 
desc = "The policy of incorporation with the Cham has finally borne fruit."
style = 1 
date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1590 } 
offset = 30

action_a = { 
     name = "The Cham join Dai Viet" 
     command = { type = add_countryculture which = cham }
     command = { type = stability value = 2 }
} 
}

unmerged(10128) · Feb 8, 2004

those events are nice. add in province RR +4, ADMIN -2 for 30 years and -100 ducats for option b and that would be almost perfect i reckon.

unmerged(21482) · Mar 4, 2004

Can I write several events for several countries in Indonesia?

Khephren · Mar 4, 2004

Sure that wouldd be great. The area is lacking in events. I'm currently writing and testing a set of "Fall of Madjapahit" events (assuming Indonesia will get some more tags to more accurately model the setup ...wishes

). There is an Indonesian thread here. We could use all the help we can get.

unmerged(10128) · Mar 4, 2004

yea new events would be great.

now that there are new free tags we can also give SE Asia (especially indonesia) back the tags it deserved instead of forcefully merging different states into one nation.

Twoflower · Mar 4, 2004

Sun_Zi_36 said:
yea new events would be great.

now that there are new free tags we can also give SE Asia (especially indonesia) back the tags it deserved instead of forcefully merging different states into one nation.

I agree. SE Asia should get all the tags needed now, so that the solutions that work out best, and not those that require the least tags, can be implemented. I would love to see a more colourful representation of Java.

Yakman · Mar 12, 2004

Twoflower said:
I would love to see a more colourful representation of Java.

I think LadyFabia has an extremely colorful solution planned in the Indonesia thread. Like a rainbow man, like a rainbow....

Jayavarman · Mar 21, 2004

Has anybody submitted the new events by doktarr or are they ready to be submitted?

unmerged(10128) · Mar 23, 2004

i dont know, i was actually waiting for a discussion of the further changes that I suggested.

Norrefeldt · Dec 12, 2004

Should Guangzhou be coastal with a port or not? Righ now it's inland and with a port. We cannot have that really, what should it be?

Jayavarman · Dec 18, 2004

Norrefeldt said:
Should Guangzhou be coastal with a port or not? Righ now it's inland and with a port. We cannot have that really, what should it be?

Isn't that a Chinese province? You should ask in the Far East or China thread.

AGC & EEP: SE Asia

Sergeant

Huangdi

Wet Blanket

★ ★ ★ ★ ★

Wet Blanket

General

Huangdi

Wet Blanket

Huangdi

Wet Blanket

Huangdi

Insane Militia

Watery Tart

Huangdi

Vile treacherous Judas

City of Washington, District of Columbia

★ ★ ★ ★ ★

Huangdi

Porphyrogenitus

★ ★ ★ ★ ★