AGC-EEP Ottoman Empire & Asia Minor

[Garbon]

Submitted for merger/pending submission:

-Timurids start out with warning against OE
-all Turkish minors will have revolt entries with 'no = TUR' except for Ramazan and Dulkadir
-Consign Ramazan and Dulkadir to revolters (need to add events, random or historical that sway these two states in the right direction when they revolt)
-Ottoman relations with Oman set to -50
-Ak Koyunlu starts out owning Sivas (with capital of Diyarbakr), Dulkadir can revolt in either Sivas or Aleppo as it historically owned parts of both, but its heartland was in Sivas province
-Adana goes to the Mameluks with Ramazan as a revolter in that province
-New nation of Ghazi is added with ownership of Smyrna and Antalya to simulate Aydin and the other various Ghazi states


Post-Merger inclusions:

-expand Ramazan's monarch list to this:

[color=white]Ibrahim II (1419 - 1427)
Mehmet I Bey (1428 - 1439)
Eylük Bey (1439 - 1440)
Dündar Bey (1456 - 1462)
Ömer Bey (1462 - 1469)
Halil Bey (1480 - 1510)
Mahmut Bey (1510 - 1514)
Selim Bey (1514 - ?)
Kubad Bey (? - 1519)
Piri Bey (1519 - 1569)
Dervis Bey (1569 - ?)
Ibrahim III (? - 1580)
Mehmet II (1580 - 1594)
Pir Mansur (1595 - 1608)[/color]

-Trapzon will have Armenian culture

Been discussed but no real conclusion reached:

-How should we help the Ottos take out the Mams?
-Just exactly where is Armenian culture justified?


On the to do list:

-Merging OE events...o

 

[unmerged(2810)]

The Ottomans must be discouraged from annexing the real Empire (Rome) in 1421, triggering "City of Man's Desire" extremely early. As things now stand, it's a given that the Empire will almost always fall to the Ottomans way too early.

 

[Arilou]

Originally posted by Dogface
The Ottomans must be discouraged from annexing the real Empire (Rome) in 1421, triggering "City of Man's Desire" extremely early. As things now stand, it's a given that the Empire will almost always fall to the Ottomans way too early.

But more Importantly the Ottomans have to go after the Mamluks!

They usually manage to get Egypt if they take on the mamluks, the problem is that they usually never fight any wars with them (and if they do they just stomp them out of Anatolia and leave it at that)

Also something must be done: The Ottoman government tends to fall 3/year or so.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Dogface
The Ottomans must be discouraged from annexing the real Empire (Rome) in 1421, triggering "City of Man's Desire" extremely early. As things now stand, it's a given that the Empire will almost always fall to the Ottomans way too early.

I think the opposite is more the problem - the Byzantines surviving until 1500 messes up the game much more than the Byzantines falling in 1421. In the EEP it seems to be more common too. Boy I hate when that happens.

 

[Twoflower]

Although it is a bit deterministic, I am inclined to think that the Ottomans need to be able to take out the Mameluks in one war since that is what happened historically:
the Ottomans invaded Syria in 1516, beat a Mameluk army near Aleppo, occupied the cities of Aleppo and Damaskus, wintered in Damaskus, proceeded to Egypt in January 1517, crushed the main army of the Mameluks on January 21st 1517 near Kairo and the Mameluk Empire was extinct. The last Mameluk Sultan Tumanbeg was offered vassal status, but refused and was executed.
As long as the Ottomans need two (or in fact almost always three) wars to annex the Mameluks, this will always prevent the AI and often even the player from accomplishing what the Ottomans did historically.
The way Paradox did it in one of the recent patches (which was intentionally not implemented in EEP 1.4) is probably too easy (you only need to control Kairo iirc), but something similar should be implemented in AGCEEP. How about this sequence:

Event1:
date: between 1512 and 1566 (i.e. covering the reigns of Selim I and Suleyman the Magnificent)
country: Mameluks
triggers: Ottomans control Syria, Egypt, Aleppo and one other province, countrysize is below 20 (so that a huge Mameluk Empire cannot be taken out that easily)
option A: Tumanbeg refuses vassal status and is executed
triggers event2, cedes all provinces east of Egypt to the Ottomans (to keep BB low)
option B: Tumanbeg accepts vassal status
triggers event3, cedes all provinces East of Egypt to the Ottomans, some other nasty effects
option C: Fight on
cedes all provinces East of Egypt to the Ottomans, some VERY nasty effects that will ensure it is really hard to do

Event 2
country: Ottomans
Mameluks are inherited, triggers the Kalifa event

Event 3
country: Ottomans
Mameluks become a vassal, lowers BB (since the Sultan has refrained from annexing Egypt), triggers the Kalifa event

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Although it is a bit deterministic, I am inclined to think that the Ottomans need to be able to take out the Mameluks in one war since that is what happened historically

Most definitely.

 

[unmerged(15559)]

Twoflower

I couldn't agree more, the Ottoman's almost never do as well as they did historically inspite of numerous past tweaks. The suggested event string IS deterministic, but IMHO justified. In many of my past games I have placed such events to force the ai, but the suggested event is superior in that it would be interesting to the player as well. However, I think a MAM player should have the choice to avoid automatically giving away provinces. Since the ai almost always selects "a" this should not be a problem. Even the ai deserves a .3% chance of avoiding this fate.

 

[Twoflower]

Re: Twoflower

Originally posted by Lord Tarleton
I couldn't agree more, the Ottoman's almost never do as well as they did historically inspite of numerous past tweaks. The suggested event string IS deterministic, but IMHO justified. In many of my past games I have placed such events to force the ai, but the suggested event is superior in that it would be interesting to the player as well. However, I think a MAM player should have the choice to avoid automatically giving away provinces. Since the ai almost always selects "a" this should not be a problem. Even the ai deserves a .3% chance of avoiding this fate.

Hold on, don't you think a Mameluk player incompetent enough to have less than 20 provinces after one century and to loose control of three key provinces and one other to the Ottomans deserves any punishment we can think of?
Seriously, since you would need to be below countrysize 20 (Mameluks start with 16 provinces in EEP) AND loose badly against the Ottomans for it to trigger, the event will be easily avoided by everybody up to the challenge of playing the Mameluks. And if you, as a player, manage to get into the situation that made the Mameluk Empire collapse historically, I don't see why the game should be any easier on you.
Btw, the Syrian Mameluk governors actually already defected to the Ottomans immediately after conquest, so there would really be few the Mameluk Sultan could do about it.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Twoflower - have you played the Mamelukes recently? They are tough, and if the Ottomans get going they can be nasty.

That said, tough crap - you chose to play the Mamelukes, and decisively lost a war to the Ottomans. You deserve a significant set back. You'll still have your Egyptian base so it's not like it ends the game for you.

That said maybe just cede Aleppo and Syria to the Ottomans, as they already captured them.

edit: also if we have a 1492 start we need to be careful about this event.

 

[Garbon]

Not entirely related, but I've noticed that if the Qara Koyunlu's power is upped in combination with those nasty revolts the Mams get, the Mams stay pretty much below radar during 15th century, except for land gains from Nubia.

 

[unmerged(15559)]

Twoflower & Isaac

Your right, if I was playing the Mamelukes the event would never fire, but I think we should leave things somewhat open to other playing styles. However, if the Syrian Mameluk governors actually already defected to the Ottomans immediately after conquest, then the event is justifed as written. In this case I would add an event where the Syrians could be appeased prior to the event in order to avoid some of this. Just a thought, not a need.

 

[unmerged(9145)]

This is something I wrote a little while back to make it a little easier for the Ottoman ai player. Note my lack of historical knowledge makes the descriptions less than stellar. Also, I haven't had the time to test it, so it may contain scripting errors. There also isn't a BB change because I wrote it prior to installing 1.07:

## Turkish Conquest of the Mameluks ##
event = {
id = 25800
trigger = {
control = { province = 454 data = TUR }
control = { province = 485 data = TUR }
control = { province = 490 data = TUR }
control = { province = 491 data = TUR }
control = { province = 493 data = TUR }
control = { province = 494 data = TUR }
control = { province = 746 data = TUR }
war = { country = MAM country = TUR }
}

random = no
country = MAM
style = 1

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1450 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1820 }

name = "Turkish Conquest of the Mameluks"
desc = "In 1517 the Turks made a lightning conquest of Mameluk territories, capturing the Mameluk king in the process. The Turks gave the king the choice to become a vassal of a much reduced territory, or to be executed. He chose to be executed, and the Ottoman Empire expanded to incorporate all of the former Mameluk territories."

action_a ={ #I choose death#
name = "I choose death (Game Over)"
command = { type = trigger which = 25801 } # Inherited by the Ottoman Empire
}

action_b ={ #I choose vassalage#
name = "I choose vassalage"
command = { type = trigger which = 25802 } # Vassals to the Ottoman Empire.
}
}

# Conquest of the Mameluks #
event = {
id = 25801

random = no
country = TUR
style = 1

name = "Conquest of the Mameluks"
desc = "In 1517 the Turks made a lightning conquest of Mameluk territories, capturing the Mameluk king in the process. The Turks gave the king the choice to become a vassal of a much reduced territory, or to be executed. He chose to be executed, and the Ottoman Empire expanded to incorporate all of the former Mameluk territories."

action_a ={ #The Mameluks are no more#
name = "The Mameluks are no more"
command = { type = inherit which = MAM }
}
}

# Conquest of the Mameluks #
event = {
id = 25802

random = no
country = TUR
style = 1

name = "Conquest of the Mameluks"
desc = "In 1517 the Turks made a lightning conquest of Mameluk territories, capturing the Mameluk king in the process. The Turks gave the king the choice to become a vassal of a much reduced territory, or to be executed. He chose vassalage, handing many former territories over to the Ottoman Empire as a condition of his surrender."

action_a ={ #The Mameluks become vassals#
name = "The Mameluks become vassals"
command = { type = vassal which = MAM }
command = { type = relation which = MAM value = 150 }
command = { type = stability value = 1 }
command = { type = trigger which = 25803 } # Yum yum!
}
action_b ={ #No, we want to conquer them the old-fashioned way#
name = "No, we want to conquer them the old-fashioned way"
command = { type = trigger which = 25804 } # No choice for the Mameluks
}
}

# We Become Vassals of the Turks #
event = {
id = 25803

random = no
country = MAM
style = 1

name = "We Become Vassals of the Turks"
desc = "As a condition of vassalage the Mameluks had to give up a number of territories."

action_a ={ #We become boot-licking vassals#
name = "We become boot-licking vassals"
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 454 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 485 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 490 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 491 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 493 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = TUR value = 494 }
command = { type = stability value = -4 }
command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 6 }
}
}

# The Turks Refuse Peace #
event = {
id = 25804

random = no
country = MAM
style = 1

name = "The Turks Refuse Peace"
desc = "The Turks rescind their offer of vassalage."

action_a ={ #So much for that#
name = "So much for that"
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
}

The player doesn't have an initial choice in the first option (other than death or vassalage) because I figured any player who lost that much territory to the Turks already made his choice.

Max

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Still the main problem of Ottos not invading Mameluks unless late in the game remains. All events are nice but how many times have you seen Ottos occupying half of the Mameluk?
If ai manages to control several importnat provs then no event is needed to help them. Once Turks prevail and somewht diminish Mameluks they attack them almost every five years. what we need is the first move.

It can be achieved by forcing the war by event on early 16th. Triggers needed would be Turkish Anatolia (or just country size) and shared border. Event like "Selim is going to kill you all" would be the begginning of the chain. The tiriggeredevents for Mameluks about desertion revolts etc to make all the way easier for Turks. And another about defection of syrian provinces if controlled by Ottos.

 

[Twoflower]

The problem is that the Ottomans, even if strenghtened in all imaginable ways, would be prevented from doing what they did historically by the one-province annexation rule.
Maybe it would be best to try a step-by-step approach for the Ottomans, i.e. we attempt to make the Ottomans behave historically for as long as possible, beginning with the initial years, and then, when we have made sure that they perform as they should in the first years, proceed to the next phase. I doubt we will ever see them take out the Mameluks or threathen Austria and Venice when we have not taken care of them conquering Byzantium, Anatolia and the Balkans first.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

I do want Turks to have Mameluks inherited but I've never seen Turkish ai crashing Mameluks decisively if not late in the game. That's why I want to add some steps (events) like initial war, revolts and desertions for Mamelukes, cessation of syrian provinces if controlled by Turks and then inheritance event.
It is just very unlikely too see ai-led Turkey to gain control over so many Mamelukes provinces to fire the sole Inheritance event without some help.

The trigger for opening events have to simulate the strength of both sides (given by countrysize), so it is avoidable.

 

[Twoflower]

Originally posted by vilkouak
I do want Turks to have Mameluks inherited but I've never seen Turkish ai crashing Mameluks decisively if not late in the game. That's why I want to add some steps (events) like initial war, revolts and desertions for Mamelukes, cessation of syrian provinces if controlled by Turks and then inheritance event.
It is just very unlikely too see ai-led Turkey to gain control over so many Mamelukes provinces to fire the sole Inheritance event without some help.

The trigger for opening events have to simulate the strength of both sides (given by countrysize), so it is avoidable.

Of course you're right. However I do fear that we will fail to achieve a satisfactory result when we don't take care of the Ottomans, by performing as they should in the first 100 years, getting in a situation that would allow them to take out the Mameluks. In order to be strong enough for the Mams, they have to constantly conquer Byzantium, the Anatolian states, Serbia, Albania, Athens, Morea and Bosnia first. Therefore I feel the issue that needs to be discussed first is not the conquest of the Mameluks, but the Ottomans in the 15th century.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Of course you're right. However I do fear that we will fail to achieve a satisfactory result when we don't take care of the Ottomans, by performing as they should in the first 100 years, getting in a situation that would allow them to take out the Mameluks. In order to be strong enough for the Mams, they have to constantly conquer Byzantium, the Anatolian states, Serbia, Albania, Athens, Morea and Bosnia first. Therefore I feel the issue that needs to be discussed first is not the conquest of the Mameluks, but the Ottomans in the 15th century.

Agree. The event about Mamelukes should fire only if big Ottos occured to the game.

 

[unmerged(15559)]

A Thought!

Has anyone tried multiple ai files in an attempt to focus the Ottomans in their historical direction? I've noted they have a long kill list, maybe if it were focused in one direction...

 

[unmerged(9145)]

I've actually only played one game using 1.07b, a 50-year test, which I just concluded this afternoon. Surprisingly, for the first time ever, I saw the Ottomans conquer almost all of Anatolia and every Balkan/Greek core they had south of Hungary. When I quit the game they were giving the Hungarians a sound beating (and doing the same to their allies).

Unless this is a freak game of some sort, something must've changed between 1.05 and 1.07b. If the Ottomans perform like this even half the time then I'd guess that very little needs to be done to correct their performance. Using 1.07b have others seen vastly improved Ottoman expansion?

Max

 

[Dawkins]

Originally posted by maxpublic
I've actually only played one game using 1.07b, a 50-year test, which I just concluded this afternoon. Surprisingly, for the first time ever, I saw the Ottomans conquer almost all of Anatolia and every Balkan/Greek core they had south of Hungary. When I quit the game they were giving the Hungarians a sound beating (and doing the same to their allies).

Unless this is a freak game of some sort, something must've changed between 1.05 and 1.07b. If the Ottomans perform like this even half the time then I'd guess that very little needs to be done to correct their performance. Using 1.07b have others seen vastly improved Ottoman expansion?

Max

I believe in a recent patch paradox introduced an event which cedes the whole mameluk empire to the Ottomans if they control the capital.