Both of these numbers are taken from: The team of authors. History of the Second World War. 1939-1945. Volume 4. - Moscow: Military Publishing, 1979
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85% of the Soviet armoured vehicle park on 1.1.1936 is missing from HoI4 (updated to NSB)
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Oh, yeah. I found it - the numbers are correct. But better have an original text rather than quote Wikipedia
Anyway 7.5K + 2.5K is just one full div both in HoI4 and RL terms - about 0.2% of the total Soviet numbers. And since there were no further big airdrops as these two were a total disaster it's still a negligible impact in terms of all Soviet operations in WWII.
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I have several books on Soviet airoborne operations, but I have them at home. I am at work nowOh, yeah. I found it - the numbers are correct. But better have an original text rather than quote Wikipedia
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p 549I have several books on Soviet airoborne operations, but I have them at home. I am at work now
We must add the capture of Bessarabia, about 5,000 paratroopers were used there (I don’t remember exactly), the Baltic states (to capture airfields). Yes, in general, it did not become something legendary, maybe if the "Polar Star" took place (50,000 paratroopers) then the Soviet operations were something legendary like "Normandy" or "Market Garden". But in any case, the Airborne Forces remained an important part of Soviet military doctrine after the war. We, as players, can make better use of the Soviet Airborne Forces in the game. In addition, the USSR was a pioneer and innovator of the Airborne Forces. Since the 1930s, before the creation of fully mechanized airborne forces, which other countries did not have. And I think as a tribute to this innovation it would be nice to add the historic airborne forces in 1936, the airborne commander and the airborne forces a national focus.Oh, yeah. I found it - the numbers are correct. But better have an original text rather than quote Wikipedia
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It must be noted that none of the major powers start with Paratroopers of any kind deployed, even if all of them were experimenting with paratroopers and several had sizable formations (like the USSR and Germany). The reason for this is most likely game balance, as Paratroopers are one of the main ways to cheese the game. The game at least pays lip service to the USSR's advanced development of Paratroopers by giving them a brigade template for them from the start of the game, meaning that the player can easily disband some mountain divisions and start making paratroopers instead to simulate the real world Red Army's fascination with airborne operations.
Well, this is not entirely correct. The USSR was the largest airborne forces in 1936. If we start in 1939, then the USSR has an Airborne Forces. And the fact that other countries do not have airborne forces is understandable, other countries began to form their own airborne forces in 1935, after the USSR demonstrated the parachuting of 1200 people with weapons and full ammunition at the Kiev maneuvers. Before that, the rest of the countries were just small experimental groups. So the rest of the countries did not have a significant number of airborne forces in 1936. So the Airborne Forces in 1936 is a distinctive feature of the USSR.
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To be honest, I also hoped for changes or creation of a fifth ground doctrine corresponding to the concepts of the Soviet Union (before the war, partly in the war and post-war), which includes a significant number of Airborne forces. Namely "Theory of Deep Operations" - which is a massive usage of tank and mechanized formations with airborne operations that tied up in action enemy reserves and cut off supply lines.
But apparently my expectations are too deep.
But apparently my expectations are too deep.
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Leningrad is so so, but Moscow? The central railway hub. It was incredibly important. Importance of those two cities had changed since the Napoleon's times.
I am not going to guess if that would have won the war or not, or if Germans could have taken it in the first place, but I am simply pointing out - it was very very important, especially for the kind of war that was being fought.
How do you move mass supplies, heavy equipment around without railways? Bypasses? Would lack in throughput or would need to be built. No hundreds of dedicated tank trailers. What about fuel? Trucking hundreds of kilometers with WW2 trucks carrying it? Maintenance nightmare would be just one the many problems.
Ponder upon that.
1. We already have MW.
2. It was not a kind of thinking specific to Soviet Union. Liddel Hart advocated the same and more or less at the same time that Triandafilov did.
To asses the impact it would be proper not to double count the operations that happened in different time. They do not reflect the PEAK employment of force.
It's just it couldn't employ them en mass due to the lack of proper transport planes and the scarcity of those it did have. Soviet Union used Li-2 with a capacity to transport about 20 paratroopers with full gear if I'm not mistaken. So yes Soviet Union had large force on paper yet it was used almost exclusively as regular foot grunts. So the operations it tried to conduct was a total disaster in reality.
For 1936, the USSR had quite enough transport aircraft: PS-9 and TB-3. I'm wondering how many transport planes would be allocated for Polar Star to parachute 50,000 paratroopers. Unfortunately, the plan for this operation is still classified in the archives of the Airborne Forces. In the Soviet - Japanese War, there were enough transport aircraft that could transport 16,000 people and supply tank units with fuel and spare parts.
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Well we can certainly say what Soviet high command lacked in real life execution it made for generously in bold thinking
E.g. I like when ppl Soviet arty numbers vs. Germany. Yes, Soviet Union had more yet what they are worth for if at the beginning of WWII ammo stocks per tube in Soviet Union was at the level of Russian Empire in WWI. And the latter did not exactly shine in this department even by WWI standards. Soviet Union produced significatly less arty ammo then Germany even in 1944. And in this year faced with the need to break through heavily fortified defense lines Soviet Army was able to spend whopping 50% less shells of higher calibers than Wehrmacht.
The capture of Moscow would be a major blow for Red Army logistics, but as this image of Soviet railways during WW2 shows, there are many alternate routes that can move around Moscow. Even then, the Red Army is becoming quite proficient in off-road movements, as for example, several armies participating in the Ukrainian front post-Stalingrad only had one rail supplying them, the lone railway northward from Stalingrad, correct me if I am wrong. Besides, there's always Allied LL, who were actually highly instrumental in the motorization of the Red Army 1942 onwards.
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I did mention the throughput, didn't I? By that map Leningrad clearly would be more or less cut off and south looses like half of capacity of the main railroads.
Plus I think we are dicussing the 1941 fall of Moscow, or at least early 1942. LL did not play that much role in 1942 regardless, nor would it have helped build/expand secondary railroads.
Of course, it all is alternative history, what if's.
I'm not sure 1943 is a fair comparison to a what-if taking place in 1941. Before the arrival of American trucks en masse, the Red Army could not mass motorise its logistics. The more robust and reliable American trucks also had a considerably bigger lift capacity per truck than their Russian equivalents. In fact, according to Nigel Askey's calculations, US lend-lease trucks to the USSR alone produced around 2.5 times the total lift capacity of all the trucks the USSR produced during WW2.
It's good to remember that this map is from 1943. Not all the railroads there existed in 1941.
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Definitely agreed to this. The advantages that LL has given to the Soviets is immeasurable, especially to logistics. Before LL though, the Soviets made extensive use of horses, its own supply of lorries and trucks, and railroads.
Source that I found that in mentioned that it while it shows the front in 1943, most of the railways shown in the map were from 1941. The NKPS in particular made extensive efforts to repair recaptured and damaged rail lines, while the new rail lines were primarily situated in the Ural and Central Asia areas to facilitate the rapid transfer of manpower and equipment to the front.
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Yeah, but I'd argue that alternative history still needs to have a serious degree of plausibility, by which if lost the alt-history would then turn into fiction.
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Really awesome thread. Would it be possible for someone to make a mod that adds the correct number of Soviet Tanks to the game? At least the ones that were operational. The game has no damaged Tank/repair mechanic.
Maybe a temporary early war "Lack of Spare Parts" and "Poor Training" debuff added as well so the Soviet Tank force isn't invincible?
Maybe a temporary early war "Lack of Spare Parts" and "Poor Training" debuff added as well so the Soviet Tank force isn't invincible?
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Hi,
I created a mod which add some missing variants of tanks for SOV to the game and slightly increase their amount (OK, in fact it increases their tanks from 2300 to 8886 so almost 4-times more), but most of the variants are obsolete and weak so your game experience shouldn't suffer and game shouldn't became unbalanced (unless you want to steamroll world in 1936).
I can do the same with any other nation in the game but I would need some reliable informations about tank numbers of other nations in 36. For now I'm going to start working on GER but perhaps in game values won't be much different with reality. I'll see
Mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2747297420
I created a mod which add some missing variants of tanks for SOV to the game and slightly increase their amount (OK, in fact it increases their tanks from 2300 to 8886 so almost 4-times more), but most of the variants are obsolete and weak so your game experience shouldn't suffer and game shouldn't became unbalanced (unless you want to steamroll world in 1936).
I can do the same with any other nation in the game but I would need some reliable informations about tank numbers of other nations in 36. For now I'm going to start working on GER but perhaps in game values won't be much different with reality. I'll see
Mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2747297420
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