"Spanish Main" after 1.28, map and nations suggestion

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BuchiTaton

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MESOAMERICA (MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA)

Before anyting, I want to recognize and thank development team´s work done to significantly improvement the "Spanish Main" (New Spain, Great Colombia and the Caribbean) with 1.28 update.

>JUSTIFICATION

With 1.28 Mesoamerica have their second map update, both of them can be considered "huge ones" (though Mesoamerican setup at EU4's release was extremely oversimplified). This last map update to Spanish Main was sizable and one of the best received "dev diary" about Golden Century, however at the same time lead some people to compare the american changes to the proper iberian ones, making many of them to think that american map changes were "way more detailed" that iberian ones, and in general this is not true. Like Iberia, Spanish Main have some dubious province selection, province names, wrong province forms and positions, wrong capitals, tradegoods, etc.

Now, apart from fix things like wrong capital names why we need more provinces or tag in the Spanish Main after a huge upgrade?

We know now that the next DLC is going to be a big one about Europe, currently the more detailed region and with the bigger province and development density (as a whole). This huge update/DLC gonna take many months to be released. Subsequently, looks likely a DLC/update about Indochina+Indonesia, one region that certainly deserve an upgrade because currently is "aged" between the upgraded India and China.
Then after this DLC (2020?) a Colonial/Native DLC become appropriate, to fix game mechanics related to colonization and natives. Of course also upgrade whole Americas map.

Try to justify the addition of provinces and nations is kind of messy and tend to be subjetive. We must think about gameplay, game performance, world and regional ballance, AI's and player behavior, maket appealing, historical basis and even the feel of novelty, above any personal bias. I keep all this on mind for this suggestion. To do that I look to recent map updates like Rule Britain and Dharma to compare the detail put by developers with their historical counterpart.

Now, I know that neither historical population or GDP are the equivalent of province density and/or development by province (current mechanics would have serious problems balancing historical behemoths like Qing or Mughal empires) but still is one of the few "objetive" approximation methods we have. Then if we look at in-game India it have provinces of ~15K km2 while Ireland of ~6K km2, when by year 1500 India have 3 times the population density of Ireland (Maddison). Even more, Ireland have more detail that wealthier and slightly bigger nations like Portugal, so the only logical explanation for Ireland´s province number is to represent the many small irish kingdoms at early game.

With 1.28's Spanish Main we got also strange discrepancies, like Cuba's provinces of ~12K km2 and Hispaniola's of ~8K km2, while the area of Mesoamerica (Mexico+Central America) have an average of ~21K km2. Now the debate between America's population "lower counters" and "high counters" is tangled, but I am sure exists consensus about Mesoamerica being way more populous that the Caribbean islands (I understand that some small lesser Antilles islands justify separated provinces becuase their history of being colonies from different european powers, but for Cuba and Hispaniola this scale of detail seem unjustified).

Considering that "Mesoamerica" (modern Mexico+Central America) represent only the 6% of whole America area, result remarkable that (from Maddison) Mesoamerica's population estimate at year 1500 represent 40% of whole Americas population. While by 1820 (after USA and Brazil grow up) New Spain still represented ~23% of America's population. About GDP in 1500 Mesoamerica represented ~37% of America's total, and by 1820 New Spain was ~20% of America´s total.

Like I said, historical population and GDP alone are not equal to in game development or province density. State fragmentation is also relevant, then for sure where Ireland could have 12 catholic irish kingdoms we could easily put 12 mesoamerican kingdoms of 4 different cultures and religions (just modern Mexico have 68 native languages from at least 8 different language families being 1/5 of Europe's area, while whole Europe have ~120 languages). Now of course Papua is not going to have >200 nations just for languages diversity sake, because Papua was not a city-state region with regional trade networks, organized armies, highly stratified society, monumental architecture and infrastructure, writing, mathematics, early broze metalurgy and simbolic and economic relevant for EU4 time period.
The diplomatic and warring dynamics of the fragmented city states of Mesoamerica is close to that of HRE or Japan.

And just to clarify im not proposing mesoamerican provinces or nations as smalls as current on game Irish, HRE's or japanese ones, even if it historicaly possible, my suggestion for Mesoamerica have nations at least >6 times bigger that the ones from those regions.

Considering that historically the two bigger weak points of native american natios was old-world disease and their political fragmentation. The current "wait to get a european neighbor to turn in a top-tech nation with fast growing development" native gameplay is somekind of boring, flavor less and unrealistic. Of course Mesoamerica is already the region with more things to do before confront colonial powers, but a more gradual and "organic" modernization mechanic could be implemented, and while you modernize and recover from disease, have a huge unified nation with enough manpower should be the only way to survive early european invasion. Something like; 1- Reform your autodestructive religion, 2- Grow your empire conquering small kigdoms, 3- Modernize gradualy while trade with europeans. Get and alliance with England to fight Spain, or in other words do with europeans what they did with natives in real history, use them for your objetives!

Now why not just buff development instead of more provinces and tags? Well there are already many complaints about high development american provinces, the game is about conquest not wait, and historically not make sense that for nations that were first technological backward and later massively destroyed by disease to have any kind of fast growing development (in real history even with european migration and african slaves Mesoamerica took at least 300 years to recover their population).

The flavor, strategy and historicity of the conquest and colonization would be also improve. If we look to the map with province's date of conquest or colonization (below) we can see that like in the Andes the fast early expansion of Spanish Empire was over the regions already densely populated with city states and empires. Then the colonization of more disperse native regions took way more time. Contrary to this game AI's Spain tends to colonize "empty" provinces next to Mesoamerica, then way later that the historical version start to atack those native nations.
So this "America" update would be the best chance to improve spanish (or whole european) interaction with Mesoamerica, adding some kind of incentive (casus belli, disease mechanic, national bonus, mission, etc.) for AI and players to do early fast conquest of this region.

Disease mechanic (that would also help to properly represent european-african interaction), slave trade and new estates like "Republica de Indios" and "Encomenderos" are a must to represent the conquest and colonization of the Americas.

> CONTENT

A- GENERAL MAP CHANGES

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- This map just compare the form and position of the new 25 provinces (letters) and 2 remplazed or "reused" ones (numbers). Considering the need to fix the mistakes about provinces names, ubications and forms, and capitals names and positions, I took this as an opportunity to have a more harmonic way to name the provinces and capitals in the region (currently some are named after tribes/nations, prehispanic or colonial cities). For that a more detailed maps with provinces and capital names (many in more that one language) are presented in the next tabs.

FzoxrSE.png

- Provinces with same color share state (first column).
- "Neutral Nation" column refer to a historical nation or tribe name that should be used as province name when the province is "uncolonized" or owned by non historical related nations (example when Denmark own such province). "Neutral capital" column is the same but for the capital city.
- Spanish (Castilian), Nahuatl (Aztek), Mayan, etc. columns are city based names for provinces when such province is owned by a nation with the culture indicated by the column.

iCvj3vs.png

e5Kf41Q.png

y2uNBVq.png

rfdIEIo.png

FNLZiLM.png

OLJd2TU.png

j8SoWni.png

- Provinces with same color share state (first column).
- "Neutral Nation" column refer to a historical nation or tribe name that should be used as province name when the province is "uncolonized" or owned by non historical related nations (example when Denmark own such province). "Neutral capital" column is the same but for the capital city.
- Spanish (Castilian), Nahuatl (Aztek), Mayan, etc. columns are city based names for provinces when such province is owned by a nation with the culture indicated by the column.

Provinces from 1 to 20
97IiaDa.png

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This map represent the localization of province capitals. For capitals that are directly in the coast I moved them a little inland for a less crowded representation.

B- NEW NATIONS AND CULTURES SETUP

MAP OF MESOAMERICAN NATIONS AT 1444
kruA4q4.png


TARAHUMARA NATION: Tarahumara culture, North American tech group, Totemism religion, Tribal government, capital at province 10 in Mexico map.
The Tarahumaras or Raramuri are now one of the few and biggest group of northen Mexico whose culture survived spanish colonization. That mainly because their furious resistence to the conversion and reduction to work in the mines of the Sierra Madre Occidental. They lead two big revolt againts spaniards during 17th century.
jEVsJed.png
Their flag is based in the designs found on Paquime.

ZACATEC NATION: Chichimec culture, North American tech group, Animism religion, Tribal government, capital at province 31 in Mexico map.
The Zacatecs or Zacatecas is one of the main Chichimec groups, they fought both in Mixton and Chichimec wars againts the spaniards, being recognized by they as maybe "the best archers in the world" despite the simple bow zacatecs used.
gLhqnwU.png
Their flag is based in a common design related to the ruling class found in Chalchihuites.

CHICHIMEC TO GUACHICHIL: The third big group of Chichimec (with Guamares and Zacatecs) are Guachichiles/Huachichiles. With the addition of Zacatecs the current on game Chichimec nation should be named Guachichil, with capital in province 29 at Mexico map.

CAXCAN NATION: Corachol (Tepic*) culture, Mesoamerican tech group, "Nahuatl" religion, Kingdom government, capital at province 42 in Mexico map. Considered as Chichimec by some, the caxcan kingdoms like Nochistlán and Juchipila led one of the biggest and threatening native coalition againts spaniards in America, the Mixton war. After that war the many caxcans, coras and huichols took refuge in the sierra at Xecora, remaining independent until 1722.
Chkrp5Z.png
Their flag is based in the glyph for Nochistlan from the Talleriano-Remensis codex. Xochipilla glyph from Lienzo Tlaxcala is another good option for flag.

MIXTEC TO TUTUTEPEC: With current on game 1.28 tags of Coixtlahuaca and Teotitlan, replace Mixtec tag with Tututepec could be the best option. Making Mixtec a formable tag for mixtec culture nations. The flag for Tututepec could be the glyph of bird on the top of a mountain, and their capital at province 82 in Mexico map

MIXE NATION: Mixezoque culture, Mesoamerican tech group, "Nahuatl" religion, Kingdom government, capital at province 91 in Mexico map.
The mixes or mijes, with their closely related zoques and popolucas are probably the real heirs of mesoamerican mother culture the Olmec. Beyond this, the mixes were by themselves a kingdom whose capital was a strategic point in the cross road of Tehuantepec isthmus, where they endured zapotec, mixtec, chiapanec, aztec and spanish expeditions. Being the zapotec their die-hard rivals even during colonial times.
4NxRh6z.png
Their flag is almost the same as their current real flag, that represent their mythical king and defender Condoy.

CHIAPANEC NATION: Chiapanec culture, Mesoamerican tech group, "Nahuatl" religion, Kingdom government, capital at province 95 in Mexico map and 11 in Central America map.
The chiapanecs, chiapanecas or soctones where an aggressive and proud nation, that extorted the tzotzils, tzetals,mixes and zoques, overcome aztec punitive forces, and after being defeated his warriors preferred to throw themsleves from cliffs that become spanish vassals.
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Their flag is based in the coat of arms of Chiapa, with native motives instead of spanish ones.

CUZCATLAN NATION: Nahua (Aztek*) culture, Mesoamerican tech group, "Nahuatl" religion, Kingdom government, capital at province 21 in Central America map.
The pipiles from the kingdom of Cuzcatlán. While huastec were the mayan nation "out of place" at the atlantic coast of the "nahuatl" side of Mesoamerica, the pipiles were a "nahuatl" nation "out of place" at the pacific coast of the mayan side of Mesoamerica. Apart of this curiosity, they controled the land of current El Salvador and parts of Guatemala and Honduras, land taked from their original owners the Xinca. The pipiles also give remarkable resistence againts the spaniards.
RZZNkB9.png
Their flag is their historical glyph. That also represent their famed production of gem jewerly and dyes.

CHOROTEGA NATION: Mangue culture, Mesoamerican tech group, Animism religion, tribal government, capital at province 38 in Central America map.
The chorotegas were a group of kingdoms in the marginal mesoamerican region along the pacific coast from Honduras to northen Costa Rica. This nation fled from central Mexico to this region after the Chichimec invasion at Classic period, but by spanish conquest time they were still fighting back nahua peoples.
AREq3IO.png
Their flag is based on their common motif of "acuatic dragon" like creatures, represented in their ceramic and gold jewelry.

LENCA NATION: Lenca culture, South America tech group, Animism religion, tribal government, capital at province 25 in Central America map.
The lencas are one of biggest nation that survived the spanish conquest in the not mesoamerican part of Central America. They used to fight againts mayan, nahua, mangue, misumalpan and quechuan peoples, and with the spanish arrival the cacique Lempira commanded the lencas to resist conquest, being killed by treason while negotiated a truce with them.
4F6nrv7.png
Their flag is based in a very common pattern from their ceramics.

JKPcayH.png

This map is based mainly in language families, but also consider other cultural and historical affiliations and as a whole promotes part of the historical focus of many mesoamerican nations. The high cultural diversity is also relevant to simulate the difficulties of unify Mesoamerica as a native, and the unique ways Spain used to manage this diversity (Republicas de Indios).

p2TcGHG.png

This map is relevant considering that at Mexico's independence just around the 40% of their population spoke spanish, and even after EU4 timeline Mexico had many native uprisings (the last was in 1994). Spanish colonial government managed this population with institutions like the "Republicas de Indios" that must be represented in game with an exclusive new estate.

ZbQw5xI.png

The provinces date correspond to the year of conquest or foundation of relevant and lasting spanish (or english) control of that province, NOT the date of first exploration, european raids of failed colonization. In some provinces the name is for successful settlements that were later remplazed as administrative center by other sites (the ones in the ID province lists).

C- TERRAIN AND CLIMATE

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Terrain map is based mainly on INEGI data. Im pretty confident that this setup achieve representation of geomorphology and vegetation, at the time that combined with their corresponding climate and development promote (or restrict) the historical development during colonial time.

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This map is based in Koppen climate classification system.

D- DEVELOPMENT AND NATIVES

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This map represent only the development at 1444. This development is a mix of historical population, wealth and infrastructure, considering also to keep strong regional powers like Aztecs, Tarascans and Tlaxcaltecs, and the general ballance of all nations on the region.

Since I dont want to exaggerate and turn Mesoamerica in an overdevelopment region (actually I nerfed many provinces) at the end I just added a regional total development of 42 points, even after count all the new proposed provinces.

Now, with the CONQUEST, COLONIZATION, and the DISEASES that come with them, a temporal, significative and negative effect (more that the event currently on game ) on production and manpower should be added to represent this.

Other very important change that come with spanish conquest was the high and fast development of Occidente and Bajio regions. This regions grew in a very significative way with the discovery of gold and silver mines, introduction of livestock and european agriculture and the trading rutes to San Blas port and the mines of Camino Real de Tierra Adentro. Therefore, some events or missions to stimulate the development of these areas must be added.

9KpHHH4.png

This map represent the amount of natives and their level of agressivity and ferocity, for he colonizable provinces. This info is realy relevant if we want to represent the historical way colonization was done.

Some places that could look irrelevant but had huge impact in our real history are bad represented in game, as examples:

- El Darién: Ironically, the Darién region (between Panama and Colombia) was one of the first mainland parts of America to be attempted to colonize, but endend with various disastrous results. Including two failed Scottish colonies. Even now the region is a isolated place.

- Costa del Seno Mexicano: Centuries before spanish conquest of the current state of Tamaulipas, that region was full of fierce natives. The south of Tamaulipas, once populated by huastec city states was invaded by chichimec and other "barbarian" nations. This frontier was dominated by the Pisones and the aggressive Janambres who harassed during two centuries any spanish (and their native allies) attempt to colonize the region. This area was at middle 16th century of special interes for the spanish ambitions to unite the New Spain with their colony in Florida.

With the poor results for this conquest the development of Texas territory was realy modest and isolated from the rest of New Spain. Something that finally would cause that anglos take over Texas.

But in game northen Tamaulipas and southern Texas is usually the area where AI's Spain colonize first, get the provinces to form New Spain colony, who later try to get over Mesoamerica. Something historicaly looks unlikely.

E- TRADE GOODS

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The current Mesoamerican goods in-game have many ahistorical things to fix.
- Too much gold in central Mexico.
- Old world tradegoods like sugar before their introduction to America.
And some relevant omitted things to add are:
- The Purepechas were know (even now they are) by their copper and early bronze production.
- The dyes of El Salvador and Guatemala pacific coast.
- The Copal from Chiapas.
- The salt from Colima and Sayula. The Salitre War between Tarascans and western kingdoms have this name because the saltwork from that provinces.

hYEnTKr.png

Some notorious parts:
- The gold and silver mines from Camino Real de Tierra Adentro (this is kind of represented in current EU4 version).
- Some changes in the sugar provinces.
- The livestock producer regions, mainly around the Altos de Jalisco, homeland of the Charros, the more that four centuries older Mexican "cowboys".
- Wine is not represented in map, because there was explicit spanish government ordinances prohibiting wine production in the New Spain to secure Iberian monopoly (Felipe II in 1595). So an event or decision about this could add flavor to colonial gameplay.

For american native nations and other peoples from Africa, Southeast Asia and Oceania, goods like Featherwork and "Sea Jewelry" (shells, perls, coral, etc.) where highly valuable and cultural symbolic treasures that moved long range trade routes. So the addition of these trade goods would add flavor to these regions.

R3NLuBw.png

Historically many New Spain related trade routes are wrong.
1- For this time Panama was not the direct destination of Asiatic trade.
2- Before and after spanish conquest the main direction of the trade between Mexico and Panama were from Panama to Mexico (currently we have the opposite on game).
3- By this time California was not trade relevant, even worse for Texas. If devs want some Southwest USA route that must put in the Pueblo region (New Mexico), since before europeans was the route of trade between Oasisamerica and Mesoamerica (for feathers, gems and shells) and later the route to move silver, gold and cattle.
4- San Blas (province 40 in Mexico map) was the second more important Mexican port for the "Galeón de Manila" route to and from Asia. This proposed new trade node must receive Asiatic trade instead of Panama (and/or California). San Blas would also take provinces corresponding to the colonial kingdoms of Nueva Galicia and Nueva Viscaya and Nueva Navarra.

F- SOURCES
- Historia General de España y America, volumen 13 (Suarez-Fernandez)
- The World Economy, a millennial perspective (Maddison, A)
- Atlas ilustrado de los pueblos indios de la Nueva España,1800
http://www2.cmq.edu.mx/pinues/index.php/2-uncategorised/1-bienvenido-al-sitio- Antigua Historia de México. (Melgarejo, J. L.)
- Instituto Nacional de Estaddística y Geografía (INEGI)
- Comisión Nacional para el Desarrollo de los Pueblos Indígenas (CDI)
- Wars and Conquests in the Crónica mexicana (Battcock, C.)
- La costa de Michoacan, Mejico, en el siglo XVI (Novella, R.)
- El Imperio Tarasco en el mundo mesoamericano (Peristein-Pollard, H.)
- Contactos exteriores del Estado Tarasco: Influencias desde dentro y fuera de Mesoamérica (Albiez-Wieck, S.)
- Mixtecos: Pueblo de lluvia. (Fundación cultural Armella Spitalier)
- Toponimias indigenas de Nicaragua. (Incer, J.)
- Exportación vitícola española al mercado novohispano. Las redes de realización y sus circuitos mercantiles, 1790-1810 (Trujillo-Bolio, M.)
- Los antiguos habitantes de Jalisco (Weigaud P. C. & García de Weidgaud A.) in Guadalajara en tres tiempos: Ayer. (Saldaña-Villareal M. I.)
- El occidente de México: Arqueología, historia y medio ambiente. Perspectivas regionales. Actas del IV Coloquio Internacional de Occidentalistas (Ávila R., Emphoux J. P., Gastélum L. G., Ramírez S., Schöndube O. & Valdez F.)
- Análisis de las principales etnias del estado de Jalisco. (Medarano-Rodriguez, A., Duarte-Leon, L. D., Godinez-Cortes, V. N., Hernandez-Barajas, D. D., Palos-Amador, A., Rivera-Zapien, S., Temores-Zaragoza, J. G. & Pérez-Meza, L. E.)
- The Huasteca: Culture, History, and Interregional Exchange (Katherine A. Faust, Kim N. Richter)
- Los Huaxtecos, según los informes de Sahagún (León-Portilla, Miguel)
- Territorialidad e identidad histórica de los zoques de Chiapas. (Velasco-Toro, J.)
- Cien años de gueras mixes: territorialidades prehispanicas, expansión burocrática y zapotequización en el itsmo de Tehuantepec durante el siglo XVI (Barros-Van Hövell tot Westerflier, A.)
- Las divisiones políticas de Chiapas: siglos XVI-XIX (Pedrero-Nieto, G.)
- Acerca de la relación genealógica de las lenguas Lencas y las lenguas Misumalpas. (Constenla-Umaña, A.)
- Grupos de la Gran Nicoya y ocupación del territorio. (Tous-Mata, M.)
- Ensayos Indigenistas (Rojas-González, F.)
- Cacería, sacrificio y poder en Mesoamérica: Tras las huellas de Mixcóatl (Guilhem Olivier)
- Guerra de los chichimecas: México 1575-Zirosto 1580 (Santa María, G.)

OPEN TO COMMENTS!
 
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COLOMBIA, VENEZUELA, THE CARIBBEAN, FLORIDA AND USA SOUTHWEST

This post is reserved to add detailed suggestions for these parts of "Spanish Main". This gonna take some more time, but I am already open to comments and suggestion about Mesoamerica (Mexico and Central America) and also the rest of Spanish Main.

To give a little advance of the general idea I have for the next regions.

> COLOMBIA
New provinces and many playable nations (Wayuu, Motilon, Zenu, Guane, Quimbaya, Pijao and Yalcon).

> VENEZUELA
New provinces, playable Timoto nation and "orinoquian caribs" renamed as Kalina.

> THE CARIBBEAN
Taino, Ciboney and Carib (island caribs) playable nations.

> FLORIDA
At least Calusa as playable nation.

> USA SOUTHWEST
Chumash and Hopi as playable nations.
 
Maybe you can do Inca area too? :)
This is the most professional work I've seen in suggestion forum.

Thank you!

Well about the Central Andes, looks like @Orlov Kruskayev and TheBlackWinds are close to add many changes for that region in their already pretty good work for South America. I am really interested on see their suggestions.

Anyway I am way more confident about my suggestion for Mesoamerica than about Peru, also the in-game development balance is realy "tricky" on that region. For me Mesoamerica was easier having the region just updated by devs, here I tried to keep development of the region as a whole the closer possible to 1.28's.

By the way @BalticM, I am reconsidering your suggestion for Venezuela. After see what developers did in the Caribbean, some more detail on Venezuela could be justifiable.

@Lord_Baltimore vision for Southwest USA and Florida would be really useful to harmonize all the Americas for a possible continetal DLC.
 
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@Lord_Baltimore vision for Southwest USA and Florida would be really useful to harmonize all the Americas for a possible continetal DLC.

No problem. I’ll make a more detailed post next week when I have more time, but here are some initial thoughts:

Hopi belongs absolutely belongs in the game. Given that they would be so easy to add (the Hopi Nation has an easy to adapt flag, traditional names are easy to find and they have a province waiting for them) I wonder if the devs intentionally left them out of the last patch for some reason.

When we get into the Southeastern US, everything depends on the dev’s willingness to add some tribal government mechanics for North America (I’ve suggested some ideas for this in the North America Patch thread). I think a nation like the Calusa would be ahistoric and boring with a native council government. With some tribal government mechanics, you could also add in some Timucua tags in Florida and Georgia and the Chitimacha in Louisiana. There’s also the Muskogean states, the Tunica and the Natchez, but that might be a topic for a different thread.

Further west the Caddo and Wichita tags represent the state of those peoples in the 19th century after the remnants of several tribes had consolidated. Given that we now have three Apache tags, it makes sense to divide up these two as well. Also, the Tonkawa tribe of Texas was very important during the EUIV period and would be fairly easy to add to the game.
 
No problem. I’ll make a more detailed post next week when I have more time, but here are some initial thoughts:

Hopi belongs absolutely belongs in the game. Given that they would be so easy to add (the Hopi Nation has an easy to adapt flag, traditional names are easy to find and they have a province waiting for them) I wonder if the devs intentionally left them out of the last patch for some reason.

When we get into the Southeastern US, everything depends on the dev’s willingness to add some tribal government mechanics for North America (I’ve suggested some ideas for this in the North America Patch thread). I think a nation like the Calusa would be ahistoric and boring with a native council government. With some tribal government mechanics, you could also add in some Timucua tags in Florida and Georgia and the Chitimacha in Louisiana. There’s also the Muskogean states, the Tunica and the Natchez, but that might be a topic for a different thread.

Further west the Caddo and Wichita tags represent the state of those peoples in the 19th century after the remnants of several tribes had consolidated. Given that we now have three Apache tags, it makes sense to divide up these two as well. Also, the Tonkawa tribe of Texas was very important during the EUIV period and would be fairly easy to add to the game.
Thank you.

Certainly the "Mound Builder" cultures need to be properly represented, because neither the mechanic-less NA totemism or the generic tribal governments represent them.
The mechanics you proposed for these nations with the ritual burial sacrifice of key figures is a good option to have a unique reform system option, similar but not the same as "Nahuatl", Mayan and Inti religious reforms.

Many cultures from South America (like some contemporary africans and ancient eurasians) used to kill slaves and wives of the paramount chieftain to be bured with them, but looks like Mound Builder take this to a higher level, including also all kind of key government figures. So I think is just for them to keep this mechanic as unique.

After read your suggestion, I was thinking in other option that requires the complete overhaul of all the religion reform mechanics for natives. This is based in the abolition of 3 beliefs that are a burden for their development and make them look like barbarians to old world eyes, and those are:

> "DIVINE SUBSISTENCE"
The belief that the spirits or gods require human sacrifice to be pleased and keep the world working.
In game this belief should have negative impact in your adminsitrative power points (slower tase of accumulation or higher cost to use them for development and technologies) and province production.
When you abolish this belief your nation lose stability and clergy loyalty, subjects gain liberty desire and provinces local autonomy.

> "HEADHUNTING"
The tradition of war and/or combat to take captives and/or part of their bodies, as a symbol of power over other nations.
In game this tradition should have negative impact in your diplomatic power points (slower tase of accumulation or higher cost to use them for development and technologies) the diplomatic opinion about you, and your army discipline.
When you abolish this tradition your nation lose military tradition, army morale and nobility loyalty.

> "AFTERLIFE SERVICE"
The ritual of bury with the dead ruler many of their slaves, wives, assesors and generals, as well as any kind of treasures. This to serve the ruler in the underworld.
In game this ritual should have negative impact in your militar power points (slower tase of accumulation or higher cost to use them for development and technologies) and army tradition. Also with monarch´s death your advisors and consort dies.
When you abolish this ritual your nation lose prestige, legitimacy and bourgeoisie loyalty.

All of this come with other changes to native government and modernization mechanics. But gonna talk about this suggestion later.
 
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Here is my proposal for revising the map of Florida and the Georgia and South Carolina coast. The whole Southeastern US, and really all of North America needs a map update, but I’m lazy so this will have to do for now. In keeping with the Paradox naming conventions for the Americas, the provinces are named after the primary tribe that lived there. Cultures (which I’ll discuss next) are listed next to the province names. The northernmost provinces should have Yamassee culture, but I’m using the related Creek as a placeholder for now.

florida_changes.png


1: Tama (Creek culture)
2: Utinahica (Mocama culture)
3: Guale (Creek Culture)
4: Guadalquini (Mocama culture)
5: Mocama (Mocama Culture)
6: Potano (Timucua Culture)
7: Saturiwa (Mocama Culture)
8: Utina (Timucua Culture)
9: Yustaga (Timucua culture)
10: Tocobago (Calusa culture)
11: Mayaimi (Calusa culture)
[Mayaimi could be further divided into a southern Mayaimi provence around Lake Okechobee and a northern Mayaca province with Ais culture]
12: Ais (Ais culture)
13: Calusa (Calusa culture)
14: Tequesta (Ais culture)

Defining cultures and culture groups for this area is difficult because you have several tribes with distinct languages and cultures that aren’t big enough to justify a culture group under the current Paradox model. So I propose a catch all “Floridian” culture group. It’s ugly, but at least the tribes in it had more in common with each other than with the peoples farther north. The cultures in this group represent the two primary Timucua language groups, the Calusa and related tribes, and the Ais and related tribes.

The default culture group names come mostly from French records. There weren’t many women’s names to work with, so I filled out the list with names of towns known to have female rulers. There are very few Calusa names in the historical record; very little of the language at all actually. So most of the names are actually names of Calusa towns listed by Hernando Escalante de Fontaneda. So little of the Ais language has been recorded that I thought it best they use Timucua names.

floridian = {
graphical_culture = northamericagfx

dynasty_names = {
Chiquola Audusta Satouriova Thimogoa “Ovade Utina” Mayarqua Chilili
}
male_names = {
Mayon Hoya Touppa Stalame Olata Couexis Maccou Athore Mayrra Mollova Groutald Codecha
Eclavou Enacappe Calany Anacharaqua Omittaqua Aequara Moquoso
}
female_names = {
Hihouhacara “Nia Cubicani” Iracana Utinajica Hapofaye Satuache
}
mocama = {
primary = <mocama nation tag>
}

timucua = {
primary = <potano nation tag>
}

ais = {}

calusa = {
primary = <calusa nation tag>
dynasty_names = {
Tampa Tomo Tuchi Soco Sinapa Sinaesta Metamapo Sacaspada Calaobe Estame
}
male_names = {
Senquene Oathcaqua Ucita Mococo Yagua Guevu Muspa Casitoo Tatesta Cayovea Jutun
Tequamapo Comachica Quisiyove Cutespa Tavaguemue Tomsobe Enempa Guarungunve Cuchiyaga
}
female_names = {
Nyo Hihouhacara Nia Iracana Utinajica
}

}
}

I would recommend adding the nations of Mocama, Potano, Utina, Ais and Calusa as OPMs in their respective provinces. I’ll make another post with more details on this next week.

Sources:
A notable historie containing foure voyages made by certaine French Captaines into Florida, by René Goulaine de Laudonnière
Memoir of Hendando Escalante de Fontaneda
God's Protecting Providence by Jonathan Dickinson
Struggle for the Georgia Coast, by John Worth
 
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Pretty interesting suggestion @Lord_Baltimore, detailed and historical.

I guess have separated Mocama and Potano nations are to represent the two main groups of "Timucuas" (Southwestern and Northestern ones).
The conflicts between Mocama, Potano, Mayaca and french colonists VS Utina and spanish colonists in the area between Florida and Georgia is realy interesting, the detail you added for the provinces in that area could help a lot to represent it.

Now I personally would love to have this kind of detail for the Americas in game, but sadly I think this detail is too much for "vanilla" game (this suggestion can make his way to a MOD for sure :p). I mean with 1.28 Florida (modern state) have 10 provinces in game for a province's average size of ~17K km2, exactly the same average for Mexico+Centralamerica suggestion (we can see that developers were way more generous with provinces on Hispaniola, Cuba and Florida that in others part of "Spanish Main").

For me the gameplay ballance and historical representation of Florida is "good" with the current number of provinces (nevertheless your central Mayaimi province was the more justifiable to add from my point of view).

Your culture group suggestion is also very valuable. I complety agree about the need of Florida peninsula cultures to have their own culture group, your list of names is 100% useful and your suggested cultures for the group are appropriate. The only thing is that without the addition of more provinces 4 cultures would be a bit much for game. Because that I suggest something like this:
w3WDLUe.png


Then the number of nations should be reduced also. Maybe Mocama, Potano and Utina can be represented with just one playable "Timucua" nation, since we need space to colonists. Other nations on the region:
o6Xy5Oh.png

In this map I didnt added provinces, BUT I think we can add some more like Chiaha or Tamathli on Georgia, maybe Coweta on Alabama. Other thing that I want to point out is if is valid to make this associate Cofitachequi with Catawba. I mean seems like most of Catawba came to this area later, but there is not 100% sure if Cofitachequi was not partially siouan by De Soto expedition time.

I am working also in some terrain changes for the area. The relief and climate are OK, but seeing this vegetation map some changes are needed.
34NT6Ez.png

Well, if you have time I would love to know more about your suggestions. Any detailed option is 100% usefull, even if it looks to be "too much" for me, the info itself could be used by official developers to make their own decisions of what is relevant to be on game (of them is the opinion that matters most), and of course a MOD that take your suggestion is also an very interesting idea.
 
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Now I personally would love to have this kind of detail for the Americas in game, but sadly I think this detail is too much for "vanilla" game (this suggestion can make his way to a MOD for sure :p). I mean with 1.28 Florida (modern state) have 10 provinces in game for a province's average size of ~17K km2, exactly the same average for Mexico+Centralamerica suggestion (we can see that developers were way more generous with provinces on Hispaniola, Cuba and Florida that in others part of "Spanish Main").

For me the gameplay ballance and historical representation of Florida is "good" with the current number of provinces (nevertheless your central Mayaimi province was the more justifiable to add from my point of view).

I understand that my proposal goes way beyond what Paradox has done for North America so far. But the thing is that what they've been doing so far isn't working. EUIV North America is boring. Making it into something that interests players is going to take some work; probably multiple patches worth of work. So I'll just keep overdoing things and hope someone is listening.

Anyway, the current consensus among archeologist and historians on Cofitachequi (and who knows what that's worth) is that they were a Muskogean people who migrated from the Savanna River and they had several Catawba tributaries. So this is another area where adding more provinces could make the game more historically accurate and more interesting. You've probably come across some of Charles Hudson's work mapping the routes of Hernando de Soto and Juan Pardo. I think that is a good starting point for map updates in the Southeastern US.

As far as nations and cultures are concerned, I'll reiterate my desire to overdo everything. For example, I'd add the four principal towns of the Creek Confederacy and make Creek a formable nation. Similar for the other nations on your map that weren't unified until well after the game's start date.
The Natchez aren't a good fit with the Muskogean cultures; different languages and they hated each other. You could possibly create a Mississippian culture group with the Natchez, Tunica and Chitimacha. It would be sort of a language isolates catch all, but these tribes had similar material culture and social structure and they were slow to give up on the Mississippian culture. Another option would be to put them in the Caddoan group.

That's probably enough for now. I'll post something on the Florida nations after I've got the flags and idea groups done.
 
I find the theory that Cofitachequi were Muskogean rather than Siouan compelling enough for game purposes. They had a city named "Talimeco" after all.
That's a great point.
For anyone who's confused, the word "Talimeco" is very similar to the Muskogee words for "Chief Town". Assuming that is an accurate translation of the name, then the people who lived there most likely spoke a Muskogean language.
Actually, this reminds me of a peeve of mine. Several of the Creek culture names include the word "mico" which means chief. It is not part of a name, its a title that someone included with the names by accident.
 
So here are my suggestions for Florida nations. I'm not very good at creating graphics, so if anyone out there thinks they can do a better job with the flags, I would appreciate the help.
Calusa:
OPM Tribal Kingdom in Calusa province with Calusa culture (see previous post)
Calusa.png

Calusa Ideas:
Calusa Traditions:
Lower Aggresive Expansion
Increased Sailors

1: Shell Culture
The Calusa formed what may have been the world's most advanced hunter gatherer society. They did not farm but rather relied on the ocean and lakes for food.
Production Bonus

2: Fountain of Youth
The natives of Cuba believed that there was a sacred river in Calusa territory that could give men eternal life. Many pilgrims came to find it and eventually settled in new towns under the Calusa chief
Increased Settlers

3: The Calus
The very name "Calusa" meant fearesome. They were a warlike people and the dominant military power in Florida until the arrival of the Seminole
Increased Land Morale

4: Divine kings
The Calusa chief (known as "Calus") was seen as divine. The people believed he played an important part in maintaining order in the natural world. Once a year he and a few close advisors traveled to a secret location to pray and cast spells for good luck in the coming year.
Increased Legitimacy

5: Spanish gold
Storms in the Gulf of Mexico forced many Spanish ships laden with Mexican gold onto the west coast of Florida. Many Calusa wore gold jewelry and the chief had a pit of gold and silver in his lodge
Tax Bonus

6: Canal Network
The Calusa built many canals to connect the lagoons and inland waterways of the Florida coast, particularly around Key Marco. The canals were generally about four feet deep and twenty yards wide. The longest extended about three miles.
Development Bonus

7: Shell Islands
Like the Mississippian peoples to the north, the Calusa built giant temple mounds. Their preferred construction material was sea shells. In some places, they built artificial islands from great mounds of shells
Construction Cost Bonus OR Prestige Bonus

Calusa Ambitions:
Reduced Naval Upkeep
Mocama:
Tribal Kingdom or advanced Native Council* in Mocama province with Mocama culure
Mocama.png

Utina:
Tribal Kingdom in Utina province with Timucua culture
Unita.png

Potano:
Tribal Kingdom in Potano province with Timucua culture
Potano.png

Timucua Ideas:
Timucua Traditions:
Lower State Maintanance
Improved Diplomatic Reputation

1: Toya
The Toya was the Timucua version of the Green Corn Busk (A new year tradition among the Muskogean peoples). A unique and important part of the festival was a ritual where select men from the tribe would fast in the woods for three days while their families mourned as if they were dead.
Stability Cost Bonus

2: Chief's Sacrifice
When a chief went to war, he was expected to return with heads of his enemies. If he failed, he had to sacrifice a member of his family
Land Moral OR Legitimacy

3: Minor Chiefs
The Timucua had a complex system of major and minor chiefs similar to a feudal system
Increased Land Force Limit

4: Paracoussy's Harvest
The fall harvest was the property of the tribal chief. The tribe brought all of their corn to the Chief's lodge and he distributed it to the people as he saw fit
Tax Bonus

5: Labor Draft
The labor draft was a yearly event introduced by Spanish Missionaries for planting corn and building public works
Development Cost Bonus OR Construction Cost Bonus

6: Consolidate Towns
During the 17th century, the Timucua Chiefdoms consolidated their many outlying towns into central locations for better defense. The chiefs and clans of the old towns continued in the new locations.
Increased Manpower

7: Moon Festivals
The moon cult was central to Timucua society. They held a monthly feast to honor the new moon
Lower Unrest

Timucua Ambitions:
Increased Land Force Limit
Ais Nation:
Mid level Native Council in Ais province with Ais culture. Uses Timucua ideas
Ais.png

The reference to advanced and mid-level native councils for the Mocama and Ais nations relates to a suggestion I posted in the North America patch thread to have a government reform mechanic for native councils. Basically I think that different tribes should start with different numbers of reforms to reflect their level of advancement.

For religion, I'm not really sure what to use for these countries, although they probably deserve some kind of unique mechanics. Both the Timucua and Ais followed a moon cult. Several of their rituals have been recorded, but I haven't been able to find anything about their theology. For the Calusa, they saw their Chief as divine, and once again we have records of a few of their rituals but very little of their theology. They apparently practices some human sacrifice. Specifically killing a shipwrecked Spaniard at a yearly ceremony (there were many Spaniards in Calusa territory who were slaves of the chiefs with varying degrees of freedom). However, its hard to say if this ceremony was more religious or political in nature.

For leader titles, a Timucua chief was called a Paracoussy, and a Calusa chief Calus
 
Great info!
The flags are really useful, take a lot of time to find historical designs for that kind of native nations. Your flags suggestion in particular are also esthetic, so implement them would be easier.
National ideas are important for suggestions too. Apart of give identity to each nation or group of nations, they can be a gameplay reason to play with those not soo popular nations. By the way I have already post in another thread a couple of idea groups for Nahua and Chichimec nations, so here are again.
CHICHIMEC (GROUP) NATIONAL IDEAS

Traditions:
land_forcelimit_modifier = 0.1
global_manpower_modifier = 0.1

Bonus:
army_tradition = 0.5

The justification of this traditions and bonus are the highly warrior like culture of Chichimec nations. Their seminomad way of life, raidings, trophy-taking and inter tribal wars that made them fierce warriors (many mesoamerican nations attributed their bravey to chichimec ancestry).

Ideas:

1- Mitote: shock_damage = 0.1
Clamour, clatter, blare and dance a ritual that prepare the warriors to battle. Inducing fear in their enemies and making their warriors frenetic

2- Correrias: movement_speed = 0.1
Hit and run, take our enemies by surprise and desolate their lands. Whatever was mesoamerican cities, spanish settlements or even others chichimec villages and camps, raiding was a effective way for chichimecs to gain resources and debilitate their rivals.

3- Empeñolarse: defensiveness = 0.25
The sierras with their steep cliffs are our watchtower and stronghold. After their raids againts the spanish towns the chichimecs retreated to the mountains and cannons where any persecutor who dare to follow them would fall to a rain of arrows and stones.

4- Tastoanes: prestige_from_land = 0.1
Great military leaders, allies or foes recognize their courage in battle. Chichimec admired warrior that showed outstanding fierceness in battle, like they did whit the supposed manifestations of "Santo Santiago" between the spanish troops.

5- Zacatec archers: fire_damage = 0.1
If they aim to enemy´s eye and hit the eyebrown it is a bad shot. Even the spaniards stood out the impresive archery of chichimec warriors, especially Zacatec ones.

6- Peyote: land_morale = 0.1
The sacred Peyote cactus, ritually consumed by shamans and warriors to communicate with the gods. The chichimec warriors had to peregrinate to sacred sites like Wirikuta where the shamans introduced them to the use of hallucinatory Peyote.

7- Chalchihuites: technology_cost = -0.1
Chalchihuites, La Quemada, El Coporo and Balcón de Moctezuma are some of the many cities that time ago thrived in this lands, when the lands was greener and the trade of gems, ceramic and exotic feathers streamed between Mesoamerica and Oasisamerica. With the arrival of the spaniards we must make use of their technology to bring back those golden days.



NAHUA (GROUP) NATIONAL IDEAS:
These ideas are for any nation with "Nahua" (Aztec in game) as main culture.

Traditions:
diplomats = 1
spy_offence = 0.1

Bonus:
diplomatic_reputation = 1

Originally from the north, Nahua peoples came to Mesoamerica as "barbaric" invasor, but in few time this foreing people claimed the legacy of the ancient mesoamerican empires and built a net of kingdoms that mainteined communicated the region.

Ideas:

1- Xolotl Blood: land_morale = 0.1
In our veins run the blood of the legendary Teochichimec king Xolotl, conqueror and founder of the ruling class on the Anahuac. Some nahua dynasties claimed relationship to Xolotl and others brave chichimec kings.

2- Toltecayotl: prestige = 0.5
We claim the legacy of the Toltecs, ancient and powerfull nation of savants and warriors. Like the mythical 5 suns, the nahua peoples see themselves as the successors of the Teotihuacans and Toltecs, heirs of a new era.

3- Nahuatlahtoa: culture_conversion_cost = -0.25
The nahuatl language is the lingua franca of Mesoamerica, known by noble and merchants. The diverse and fragmented Mesoamerica could be unified under the vibrant culture of their nahua rulers.

4- Calpulli: stability_cost_modifier = -0.1
The calpulli is the identity of each clan, their district and guild. United in their shared ancestors. These calpullis was an effective way to adminstrate the nahua societies, so useful that even the spaniards preserved this traditions after the conquest.

5- Chicomoztoc: global_colonial_growth = 10
From our original homeland in the north, one after other, waves of nahua nations populated Mesoamerica. After the fall of Teotihucan the nahua tribes and dynasties expanded from Jalisco to Nicaragua.

6- Tianquiz: global_trade_power = 0.1
The Tianguis is the heart of trade in any city or town in Mesoamerica. From the giant one in Tlatelolco that impressed the spaniards. the spanish ally Mexica and Tlaxcaltec troops took it with them to Philippines to make the Tiangge.

7- Tequiutl: production_efficiency = 0.05
Tequio is the traditional community work, shared to celebrate the sacred days, honour the sovereing and improve the infrastructure. This institution promoved also during colonial times maintains the communal identity.

About religion I see more factible the regional "Mississippian" like system for southeast nations, considering the current number of religion on game I see hard that devs add more that 3 religions for all North America (even in a dedicated DLC). Another option could be a "choice" from "multi-religion" options similar to Hindu or Fetichism.
 
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About religion I see more factible the regional "Mississippian" like system for southeast nations, considering the current number of religion on game I see hard that devs add more that 3 religions for all North America (even in a dedicated DLC). Another option could be a "choice" from "multi-religion" options similar to Hindu or Fetichism.
My problem here is that I strongly believe North America needs a few tribal governments for the more advanced chiefdoms and Paradox has decided primitive tribal governments need a religion with a reform system; which doesn't leave room for deities, cults, etc. So you'd have to redesign the whole westernization system and scrap some premium content (which I think is a great idea, but the devs probably don't). You are right that realistically the Florida nations will have to use whatever religion the rest of the North American tribal kingdoms use to keep this part of the game simple.

And while we're on the subject of national ideas, I'll go ahead and repost these:
Western Apache Ideas

Traditions: Improved Prestige from Battles, Number of Diplomatic Relations

1: Apache Endurance - Lower Army Attrition
The endurance of Apache warriors was legendary. They were able to travel long distances over rough terrain with very little food or water. They made use of whatever small bits of food they found along the way, including yucca stalks and grass seeds. The linked sources have a number of anecdotes to illustrate this.

2: Pueblo Refugees - Lower Idea Cost
Apache bands had peaceful trade relations with different Pueblo tribes (and were usually at war with others). After the Spanish conquest of the pueblos along the upper Rio Grande and particularly after the suppression of the Pueblo Revolt, many Pueblo Indians escaped the Spanish to join the Apache. They brought important skills in pottery, basketry and horseback riding and a rich religion and culture

3: Medicine Skins - Tolerance of the True Faith
The Western Apache had a rich pantheon of gods and goddesses influenced by their Pueblo neighbors. A tribe’s most important possessions were the “Medicine Skins” which were painted with pictures of the various gods. These skins were similar to the medicine bundles of tribes on the northern plains and Great Lakes. They were unfolded only for special ceremonies and each had special songs and incantations associated with it.

4: Mountain Warfare - Siege Ability
The Apache were able to dominate the mountain passes in Spanish New Mexico (modern day New Mexico and Arizona) and into Northern Mexico. Small Spanish/Mexican outpost were often completely cut off from supply as the Apache would ambush anyone who tried to enter or leave.

5: Trail Signs - Leader Maneuver
Apache war parties communicated with each other by leaving markings with rocks, broken branches and grass along their trails. Someone unfamiliar with these marking would easily overlook them, but to an Apache warrior they held detailed information about a war party’s strength and where it was going. This allowed different war parties to coordinate their movement over a wide area

6: Guan Dance - Lower Unrest
All tribal gatherings opened with a sacred dance performed by four masked men representing the spirits of the four cardinal directions. A fifth dancer known a the “fun maker” was a sort of clown who would entertain the audience during the ceremony

7: Great Medicine Men - Additional Leader Without Upkeep
The most important figure in an Apache band was the medicine man. The chief was of minor importance in comparison. In addition to the normal duties of tending to the sick and conducting religious rituals, medicine men were often responsible for deciding when and how to go to war or negotiate peace. They would often lead war parties. However, their position was very fragile because the Apache wouldn’t hesitate to kill a medicine man who’s power failed.

Ambitions: Land Leader Shock
Plains Apache Ideas

Traditions: Lower Aggressive Expansion and Impoved Native Integration

1: Rancherias - Production Bonus OR Tax Bonus
The Plains Apache built farming villages along rivers on the southern plains to grow corn, squash and other crops. The villages ranged from semi permanent collections of grass huts to fortified towns like the Cuartelejo Pueblo. Even after adopting horse culture the Apache tribes still maintained farms for part of the year until the early 19th century.

2: Adapt to the Plains - Lower Coring Cost
The Apache were originally a mountain people. Sometime in the 15th or 16th century they migrated onto the southern plains. The Apache imitated people like the Jumano and Tonkowa. They learned to farm, started living in tipis and learned to hunt buffalo. They went through an even greater change in the late 17th century when they learned to ride horses and used them to migrate with buffalo and antelope herds.

3: Community Healing Ceremonies - Lower Stability Cost
[This idea relates to a practice that was popular with the Jicarilla Apache, who also really deserve their own tag]
The Plains Apache held healing ceremonies that doubled as a community festival. The whole band gathered at the lodge of the sick person for several days of feasting and dancing. The dances sometimes included match making ceremonies for young people in the band.

4: Female Diplomats - Diplomatic Reputation AND Increased Female Advisor Chance
Compared with most other North American tribes, women held a high place in Plains Apache society. The wives and daughters of chiefs served an important role as emissaries of their tribe.

5: Spanish Cavalry Tactics - Cavalry Combat Ability
The Apache were one of the first tribes to adopt horses. Apache warriors imitated the Spanish Cavalry, carrying long lances and wearing leather armor.

6: Maintain Skill with Bows - Lower Recruitment Cost
Like other tribes, the Apache were quick to adopt firearms after French (and later American) merchants began trading on the plains. However, the Apache never gave up their traditional weapons. They often preferred bows for hunting. They continued to use the bow and arrow into the late 19th century.

7: Longhorns - Production Bonus OR Lower Development Cost
The grass is too thin to support large herds Buffalo on most parts of the southern plains. However, Spanish longhorn cattle were very well suited to the area. The Plains Apache built up herds by rustling cattle from Spanish settlements or capturing feral cattle. By the 19th century this was their primary food source. The Apache were the only Plains Indians to raise cattle before the reservation period.

Ambitions: Lower Army Tradition Decay
Miskito Traditions - Army Morale and Tolerance of Heathens

Bluefields - Trade Power OR Technology Cost
The city of Bluefields was founded by the Dutch pirate Abraham Blauvelt in the 1630s. It became the capital of the Miskito Kingdom and a center for buccaneers and smugglers and later missionaries and British settlers.

Zambo - Infantry Power
Sometime in the early 17th century (several different dates appear in different sources) a slave ship wrecked on the Miskito Coast. The Miskito enslaved the Africans who survived the wreck, but they adopted their children into the tribe. The mixed race Miskito Zambo were great warriors and leaders. King Jeremy II became the first mixed race leader of the tribe in 1718 and his dynasty continued into the 19th century.

Coastal Raiders - Army Movement Speed
From the mid 17th century until the end of the British protectorate, the Miskito sailed up and down the Central American coast raiding Spanish settlements to capture slaves; who they sold to British plantation owners in Jamaica. In the 18th century they also adopted horses to raid inland to capture slaves and steal cattle.

English Influence - Institution Spread
The Miskito formed strong ties with English merchants during the late 17th century and started to identify very strongly with English culture. Miskito learned the English language, took English names and titles and bought up second hand English clothes to wear for special occasions. They also started referring to members of surrounding tribes as "Indians" and "Abowinnes" (a corruption of Aborigine) and to themselves as superior "Miskito-Men".

Licensed Merchants - Trade Efficiency
The Miskito kings were very welcoming towards foreign merchants, particularly the English. The king would give a newly arrived merchant a symbol of his authority; usually a staff with a silver or gold head. This gave the merchant the right to travel freely in the kingdom and all Miskito were obligated to assist him.

Buccaneers - Military Technology Cost OR Army Discipline
Many Miskito warriors joined European privateers or became mercenaries around the Caribbean. These men had an honored place in Miskito society when they returned home and often became military leaders.

Kwatmas - Lower Unrest
From the English word "Quarter Master" a Kwatmas was a royal representative who traveled through small villages to enforce the King's laws. A Kwatmas was judge, jury and executioner and they could be very cruel. However, crime and punishment was no longer something for families and clans to sort out amongst themselves so the system put an end to many tribal feuds.

Miskito Ambitions - Land Fire
 
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This is superb work, I think the province setup is pretty much perfect. I have some suggestions nonetheless. First of all, I am uncomfortable with savannah terrain for the Pacific coast of Central America. It's even worse for the Yucatan, definitely not right.

As far as political geography:
- Otomi makes no sense. Should be divided into Xilotepec and Metztitlan and Acambaro should be given to Purepecha.
- Ch'orti' also makes no sense. Copan fell a while ago. Guaimura (located in the Ulua valley of Honduras, near San Pedro Sula) appears to be the main center of power at the time and was probably the Tolupan ethnicity not Mayas. Similarly Chapagua and Taguzgalpa could possibly be shown in eastern Honduras.
- Cuzcatlan should be called Kuskatan (Cuzcatlan is how they were called by the Tlaxcaltecas, but Kuskatan was their own name). And it should only cover the western half of El Salvador, the east was Lenca.
- Chorotega as such a relatively large nation doesn't make sense. Maybe we want to keep it like that for balance, but a unified Chorotega kingdom only existed in the Honduran part. Nicaragua was divided into numerous small chiefdoms (and Leon was actually Subtiaba not Chorotega), whereas the Nicoya kingdom in Costa Rica competed with the neighboring Huetar kingdoms that dominated what is now San Jose and the Atlantic coast. Perhaps we could introduce these tags and one more province so that we could have both the Eastern and Western Huetares.
- Cuitlatecs are completely forgotten in EU4. Tlapanecs are only found in eastern Guerrero, the west and the center of the coast were Cuitlatec.
- Chontal Mayas should be named Yoko, that is their own name.
- The Yucatan countries are very much simplified, technically it should be divided into OPMs. But balance and all that.

Cultures:
- Pipil should definitely be their own culture, in fact I don't think they should even be in the group with Aztec culture. Their language is related to Nahuatl, but it's not the same and not intelligible. They were heavily influenced by their Central American neighbors who they intermarried with. In addition, they should also cover the pacific coast of Guatemala and Chiapas. There was a Nahua state at Escuintla, and coastal Chiapas was divided by Tapachultecs and Nahuas. I think you put Lenca culture in southeast Guatemala to represent the Xincas? But not only are they different, the Xincas were largely dominated by Mita and Escuintla.
- modern Coatzacalcos was Nahuatl speaking.
- I would ask that Nahuatl/Aztec culture be split in four. One for the valley of Mexico (Anahuac), one for Puebla state (Tlaxcalan), one for Morelos state (Cuauhnahuac), and one for coastal Veracruz. Tlaxcaltecs and Aztecs obviously hated each other, and the different dialects of Nahuatl can be quite different. In fact in the prehispanic period, no ethnic "Nahua" identity existed at all. There was no reason for these people to recognize each other as similar.

A minor thing, but a pet peeve nonetheless: we should have dynamic province names for pre-columbian cultures. Outside of Yucatan and Michoacan all of Mexico has Nahuatl names (and sometimes those are wrong too, like Zapotec should be Teotzapotlan, Tlapanec should be Tlapan, etc), but I would like to see Zapotec and Mixtec names, including for central Mexico. Even today Mixtecs call Mexico City as the old Mixtec name for Tenochtitlan.

http://www.famsi.org/maps/linguistic.htm - two great maps of languages before the conquests
 
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Hi @nyetflix and thank you very much for your detailed observations and suggestions.
I am happy to see more people interested and informed about Mesoamerica contributing to upgrade this region.

First of all, I am uncomfortable with savannah terrain for the Pacific coast of Central America. It's even worse for the Yucatan, definitely not right.
The reason for savannah is that EU4 complety lack dry tropical forest, of course savannah is supossed to be an open biome but many of the regions that I count as savannah are mozaics of dry forest, matorral, nopaleras, small grasslands and even farmlands that used to be more extended on precolumbian time. About the topography you can see that most of those provinces correspond with coastal plains, that even if something narrow were used as corridors. So they fit the climate and are kind of open routes.

Now, northern Yucatan is certainly plain and seasonal. Grassland is way more open to fit, Jungle is too tall and dense, Dryland fit better for nopaleras, Savannah is the closer (mix of grass and forest with tropical seasonal climate). To give some context just now there are some fires on areas of Yucatan that are called "sabanas".

- Otomi makes no sense. Should be divided into Xilotepec and Metztitlan and Acambaro should be given to Purepecha.
Is true that historically Otomi were not unified, but in this case like many others on Mesoamerica and the Americas in general, seems unlikely to reach the level of detail most of these regions should get. In other words, my suggestion try to achieve a level of detail that could be considered by devs, I am not sure of how much this level is but I tried to be "moderate".
Now coming back to Otomis, I could see likely you suggestion of have Xilotepec and Metzitlan as independent otomi states, each one with two provinces. Still I think Xilotepec would keep Acambaro, because that province would cover both sides of the Lerma were Chichimec-Otomi peoples used to be, at the same they keep the minimum of two provinces for the nations on this region (a balance and gameplay reason with justification).

- Ch'orti' also makes no sense. Copan fell a while ago. Guaimura (located in the Ulua valley of Honduras, near San Pedro Sula) appears to be the main center of power at the time and was probably the Tolupan ethnicity not Mayas. Similarly Chapagua and Taguzgalpa could possibly be shown in eastern Honduras.
Here there is also a gameplay design dilemma. I think devs want to keep the playable native nations with a limit that match the traditional mesoamerican frontier, surrounded by colonizable provinces, also seem to be interested to have a robust mayan region (because their unique mechanics). Now I would like to have all the central american native nations all the way to Costa Rica, but i dont feel the current information about the area would make devs change their design.
I would love if you have some more detailed info about the states on this particular area to put together their events, ideas, flags and names lists.

- Cuzcatlan should be called Kuskatan (Cuzcatlan is how they were called by the Tlaxcaltecas, but Kuskatan was their own name). And it should only cover the western half of El Salvador, the east was Lenca.
This is also a game design situation. Almost all the nations on game are named after their most common historical or modern english denomination so is easier to keep that naming model. The second province is also for ballance.

- Chorotega as such a relatively large nation doesn't make sense. Maybe we want to keep it like that for balance, but a unified Chorotega kingdom only existed in the Honduran part. Nicaragua was divided into numerous small chiefdoms (and Leon was actually Subtiaba not Chorotega), whereas the Nicoya kingdom in Costa Rica competed with the neighboring Huetar kingdoms that dominated what is now San Jose and the Atlantic coast. Perhaps we could introduce these tags and one more province so that we could have both the Eastern and Western Huetares.
Effectively the artificial unification of the cultural related nations of the pacific coast of Central America as Chorotega is in the same line that numerous native nations represented on game as unite when they were just culturally related. I leave Huetares out beacuse the region covered by "Chorotegas" is sometimes included on Mesoamerica, but not futher beyond.

- Cuitlatecs are completely forgotten in EU4. Tlapanecs are only found in eastern Guerrero, the west and the center of the coast were Cuitlatec.
Actually I struggle with 4 provinces Tlapanecs, two 2-provinces nations would be better. Would need some more info to split Tlapanecs and build a new tag.

- Chontal Mayas should be named Yoko, that is their own name.
- The Yucatan countries are very much simplified, technically it should be divided into OPMs. But balance and all that.
Like above with names and level of detail.

- Pipil should definitely be their own culture, in fact I don't think they should even be in the group with Aztec culture. Their language is related to Nahuatl, but it's not the same and not intelligible. They were heavily influenced by their Central American neighbors who they intermarried with. In addition, they should also cover the pacific coast of Guatemala and Chiapas. There was a Nahua state at Escuintla, and coastal Chiapas was divided by Tapachultecs and Nahuas. I think you put Lenca culture in southeast Guatemala to represent the Xincas? But not only are they different, the Xincas were largely dominated by Mita and Escuintla.
The problem with Pipil is that any culture need at least 3 provinces to be on game, also one gameplay point of Cuzcatlan is to have the opposite of in-game Huastecs.
Chiapas also would keep the chiapanec culture priority to meet the game culture rules.
About Xincas you are right, the game limitations forced me to do some cultural "baskets", still the Xincas would not be an independent nation at start.

- modern Coatzacalcos was Nahuatl speaking.
Coatzacoalcos is chontal for ballance and detail limitations but I think could be changed, would need some gameplay test.

- I would ask that Nahuatl/Aztec culture be split in four. One for the valley of Mexico (Anahuac), one for Puebla state (Tlaxcalan), one for Morelos state (Cuauhnahuac), and one for coastal Veracruz. Tlaxcaltecs and Aztecs obviously hated each other, and the different dialects of Nahuatl can be quite different. In fact in the prehispanic period, no ethnic "Nahua" identity existed at all. There was no reason for these people to recognize each other as similar.
I agree about real cultural differences between nahua peoples (also about the obvious confrontation and fragmentation of nahua states). But, spaniards easily exploited the link between nahuas populations as the way to get information all around mesoamerica. I feel is gameplay usefull to have a "dominant" or extended culture on the region. Additionaly, more nahua cultures would need more provinces to be implemented.

A minor thing, but a pet peeve nonetheless: we should have dynamic province names for pre-columbian cultures. Outside of Yucatan and Michoacan all of Mexico has Nahuatl names (and sometimes those are wrong too, like Zapotec should be Teotzapotlan, Tlapanec should be Tlapan, etc), but I would like to see Zapotec and Mixtec names, including for central Mexico. Even today Mixtecs call Mexico City as the old Mixtec name for Tenochtitlan.
I am kind of confused here, because my suggestion already include numerous dynamic names for various cultures. Now for sure my the list could be upgraded, any addition would be highly appreciated!
 
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Oh I'm sorry, I didn't notice your tables. Here are my suggestions (I can give you the province numbers if you'd like):

Guanajuato: Mooti (Chichimec)
Celaya: Nattahi (Otomi)
San Miguel de Allende: Izcuinapan (Guamar)
Queretaro: Nda Maxei (Otomi)
Taximaroa: Tlaximaloyan (Nahuatl), Quesehuarape (Guamar), Otompan (Otomi)
Huetamo: Oztoman (Nahuatl)
Pachuca: Ñunthe or Njunthe (Otomi) - I'm curious, how did you get Tollanzinco for this one?
Zaachila: Teotzapotlan (Nahuatl), Antequera/Oaxaca (Spanish) - the name Huaxyacac was only given to the area when it was conquered by Tlaxcaltecs.
Mitla: Coyolapan (Nahuatl)
Pochutla should be called Huatulco, Cuauhtolco in Nahuatl.
Tzul: Tukuru (Maya), Verapaz (Spanish)
Huehuetenango: Saqulew (Maya)
Xoconochco: Soconusco (Spanish), Tapachula being the capital
Sula: Waimura (default), Higueras (Spanish)
Comayagua: Kare (Lenca)
Tegucigalpa: Sulako (Lenca), Tlalhuitztlicallipan (Nahuatl), Tegucigalpa (Spanish)
Usulutan: Usulutan (Pipil), Ocelotlan (Nahuatl), San Miguel de la Frontera (Spanish), Manalaka (Lenca)
Carataca: Taguzgalpa (default), Tlalcuzticallipan (Nahuatl)
Copan: Serkin (Lenca), Ocotepec (Nahuatl). Unsure of a Maya name, because Copan was long abandonded in 1444. If nothing else the Maya name should be Oxwitik.
Xicaque: Papayeca (default), Honduras (Spanish). Capital is Trujillo
Chiquimula: Mictlan (Nahuatl), Mita (all other native)
Tecoman should be called Cohahuayana
Tlapan: Tinda'i (Mixtec, Tlapanec)
Linares: Quinigua (default)
Juamave: Tamaulipan (default)
Matehuala: Pison (default)
Ciudad Valles: Tamtokow (Huastec)
Panuco: Tziuhcoac (Nahuatl, Huastec)
Irritila: Parras (Spanish)
Zacatecas: Tlacuitlapan (default)
Durango: Nachancaya (default)
Mapimi: Cuencame (default)

In the Yucatan, I suggest that province 2 becomes Tulum, province 3 becomes Uaymil, and 4 becomes Chactemal/Chetumal. This more accurately represents the locations.

For your Nahuatl names with Qu in them, I think they should use Cu instead for consistency with all the provinces in Mexico that already use that convention.
 
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I don't think we should limit ourselves from including any OPMs at all. The map is good, but it still feels a bit overly balanced, where every country has an equal chance of success. Every tag has around 3-5 provinces. That's how we end up seeing things like Tzotzil dominating the entirety of Mesoamerica. Europe and Asia have plenty of tiny tags where it is appropriate, because they aim to show a diversity of detailed political situations. This is especially relevant for Central America, because the region has always been very divided.

At the very least we can probably divide Otomi, Chorotega and Tlapanec into 2 two-province tags each to create Cuitlatec and Nicoya, and I think Chiapanec should have vassal control over neighboring Tzotziles, Tzeltales and Zoques. Lenca should also get at least one more province because they were about to become a regional power in a sense. I can post some slightly edited maps showing political status and culture if you'd like, to show my ideas.

Also, I would propose making the province between Yucatan and Peten a wasteland. There were no significant settlements here and the Spanish found it impossible to move through here.
 
Oh I'm sorry, I didn't notice your tables. Here are my suggestions (I can give you the province numbers if you'd like):

Guanajuato: Mooti (Chichimec)
Celaya: Nattahi (Otomi)
Queretaro: Nda Maxei (Otomi)
Pachuca: Ñunthe or Njunthe (Otomi) - I'm curious, how did you get Tollanzinco for this one?
Zaachila: Teotzapotlan (Nahuatl), Antequera/Oaxaca (Spanish) - the name Huaxyacac was only given to the area when it was conquered by Tlaxcaltecs.
Tzul: Verapaz (Spanish)
Huehuetenango: Saqulew (Maya)
Xoconosco: Soconusco (Spanish), Tapachula being the capital
Sula: Naco (default), Higueras (Spanish) with capital San Pedro Sula
Tegucigalpa: Tlalhuitztlicallipan (Nahuatl), Tegucigalpa (Spanish)
Carataca: Taguzgalpa (default), Tlalcuzticallipan (Nahuatl)
Copan: Intipuca (Lenca), Ocotepec (Nahuatl). Unsure of a Maya name, because Copan was long abandonded in 1444. If nothing else the Maya name should be Oxwitik.
Xicaque: Chapagua (default), Honduras (Spanish). Capital is Trujillo

For your Nahuatl names with Qu in them, I think they should use Cu instead for consistency with all the provinces in Mexico that already use that convention.
This would be very usefull, I was thinking to do small changes to this suggestion after finish the suggestion for "Great Colombia" region, now the upgrade would be way more significative, thank you!
About Tollantzinco I used "Estructura político-territorial del Imperio Tenochca, La Triple Alianza de Tenochtitlan, Tetzcoco y Tlacopan" from Carrasco P.

I don't think we should limit ourselves from including any OPMs at all. The map is good, but it still feels a bit overly balanced, where every country has an equal chance of success. Every tag has around 3-5 provinces. That's how we end up seeing things like Tzotzil dominating the entirety of Mesoamerica. Europe and Asia have plenty of tiny tags where it is appropriate, because they aim to show a diversity of detailed political situations. This is especially relevant for Central America, because the region has always been very divided.
My idea is to keep the regional powers throught national ideas, development and some events. Have many small nations is also a problem of performance that devs seem more willing to invest on popular regions like Central Europe, even the map projection is a problem (making Europe looks bigger and Mesomaerica smaller that how they should be).

At the very least we can probably divide Otomi, Chorotega and Tlapanec into 2 two-province tags each to create Cuitlatec and Nicoya
I am glad to agree on this, these nations are exactly the ones I keep the feeling of need some division the most. Another big inquietude for me is the lack of some representation of the Sinaloa's señorios, likely Aztatlán.

I think Chiapanec should have vassal control over neighboring Tzotziles, Tzeltales and Zoques. Lenca should also get at least one more province because they were about to become a regional power in a sense. I can post some slightly edited maps showing political status and culture if you'd like, to show my ideas.
The diplomacy on Chiapas would need some test, I fear they could become too powerfull at start. About Lenca, I was also thinking about change their owned province to Tegucigalpa and leave Chorotega with also just one province, to separete them from the more traditional limits of Mesoamerica, this on the idea of a new mechanic of colonization and interaction with "empty" provinces for native nations (still thinking about it). Of course the other option is make Lenca a bigger nation to match their neighbors.
Any map suggestion would be appreciated!

Also, I would propose making the province between Yucatan and Peten a wasteland. There were no significant settlements here and the Spanish found it impossible to move through here.
I keep that region because the spanish settlement on Chichanhá, still failed but were kind of viable. Wasteland could add a lot of interesting strategies for this region, the climate, terrain and biomes are some of the more diverse on the world, but the size of the provinces because the map projection made me refrain from suggest any one. Another idea I would love to have is some form of culture-to-terrain bonus, this could give some advantage to cultures from tundra, mountains, jungle and desert to move and keep their armies and develop in their provinces on those terrains.
 
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revised mesoamerica.png

Any map suggestion would be appreciated!

I shamelessly edited your own map in paint.

Chiapas:
Orange = Tzotzil
Pink = Zoque
Green = Tzeltal

In Central America:
Dark purple = Naco (or perhaps Guaimura)
Green with yellow outline = Nicoya

In Yucatan:
Purple = Ah Canul
Blue = Cupul
Red = Uaymil
Black = wasteland (could probably be split into a province and a wasteland if needed, since the province is pretty big)

In Mexico:
Light purple in Guerrero = Cuitlatec
Yellow-green in Guanajuato (I think) = Xilotepec
Teal = Metztitlan

OPMs are present only in Central America and the Mayan region. Total of 9 of them. The ones in Chiapas are there to represent the indirect control the Chiapanecs had over the surrouding areas.

The diplomacy on Chiapas would need some test, I fear they could become too powerfull at start.

With Chiapanecs having only 3 provinces and 3 vassals, they would probably have high liberty desires that would solve the problem. If not, there can be an event or something for the vassals to gain liberty desire.

The ones in Yucatan are because the region was simply way more divided than just three states. In fact I don't think the existing countries were stronger than the new countries I added really. Yucatan is situated far away enough from the Aztecs that it should still have time to be consolidated by a native power before the Aztecs reach here.

Cuzcatlan and Naco are a bit harder to justify I suppose, but that was the extent of their territory, plain and simple. Cuzcatlan could probably be given a fort, because they resisted very strongly against the Spanish. They also were one of the largest cities in the area at the time of conquest with over 24,000 people in the capital, which was more than Iximche or Q'umarkaj IIRC. So perhaps they could get a slight dev boost.

mesoamerica cultures.png

So I added Pipil (in Cuzcatlan, Xoconochco and Escuintla, light blue), Cuitlatec (western Guerrero, bright orange), Tolupan (northern Honduras, yellow-orange) and Diquis (dark purple, around Costa Rica) cultures, and I combined Chiapanec with Mangue. I refrained from splitting up Nahua culture because I realize how few provinces they have. However, my cultural groupings are very different from your suggestions. A big issue is that groupings based on language family do not work well for Mesoamerica, in my opinion. It's the equivalent to grouping European cultures with Persian, on the basis that they are both Indo-European languages. Yes, it's true that the languages are related but that has little bearing on how different ethnicities see each other in Mesoamerica. It's more about the environment and sphere of interaction.

- Chichimec should not be grouped with western Mexico. The lifestyle is completely different and agricultural Mesoamericans saw Chichimecs as barbarian.
- Matlazinca and Otomi should be grouped with Nahua, whatever group that is in. Nahuas are descended from people who used to speak other Oto-Manguean languages, but switched to the language of Chichimec newcomers.
- similarly, Mangue should be grouped as Central American.
- Pipil is included as Mayan, not grouped with Nahua. Western El Salvador has always been part of the Maya area and many settlements were bilingual. They do speak a Nahuatl-derived language, but actually it's been heavily influenced by Mayan languages, Lenca and Xinca. Their religion is a mixture of Toltec and Maya religion. And Pipiles mostly descend from original inhabitants with some Toltec mixture.
- Huastec should included with Totonac and Mixe. I don't like how the game classifies them as a "lost Maya people" just because their language is related. The last connection between Huastecas and Mayas was several thousand years ago, they were simply a people on the border between Mesoamerica and the north who developed their own culture.

I'm totally open to playing around with the precise borders of culture and countries a little bit.

One last thing, I propose we should rename the Zapotec and Totonac tags to Zaachila and Cempoala. Besides it sounding way nicer, I think that is the most common name for those actual states, and that's how this wikipedia article refers to them.
 
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