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You said it yourself:
"it's more difficult to manage large vassals".

If the kingdoms outside of these areas are large, the king tier vassal would be large, which, according to you, is more difficult to manage. So what's the problem here?
 
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Why not go the other way, and raise the amount of kingdoms required for empire creation to 6-7? ERE/HRE/Persia won't be affected too much, but to create an imperial France you would have to replicate Charlemagne's conquests or invade Spain. The resulting empires would be even more difficult to manage than the historical ones, because with the same amount of vassal kings, their kingdoms would be bigger and stronger - and many of them won't be de-jure.

Because France historically should require about as much effort to control as the HRE.
 
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You said it yourself:
"it's more difficult to manage large vassals".

If the kingdoms outside of these areas are large, the king tier vassal would be large, which, according to you, is more difficult to manage. So what's the problem here?

What are you talking about? I didn't say that. I said large number s of vassals are more difficult to manage, not that large vassals are difficult to manage.
 
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I was quoting your exact sentence. Emphasis mine:
Why not? Because then it implies that a lot of other titles should be kingdom level.

Because the fewer vassals you have, the easier it is to manage something. This isn't really a problem with Kingdoms because Duchies are fairly regularly distributed throughout the map. So the growth of a Kingdom tends to accurately reflect reality, namely the larger that Kingdom is, the worse it's returns on holding that vassal are, since it's more difficult to manage large vassals and eventually you hit the vassal limit.

With an Empire outside of the aforementioned areas (HRE for example), it tends to get way too easy. Kingdoms outside of those areas basically represent what Empires are inside those areas. So you tend to have far fewer vassals then would historically be the case. For example, somehow it requires fewer vassal titles to manage the entirety of the UK and France then it would for just Germany in the HRE, despite that France alone was equivalent to Germany in terms of population and title density.

In the HRE at least kingdom titles automatically get destroyed if an Emperor holds them; I think at least that should be deployed everywhere since that would at least slow the abuse of Kingdom titles. As well presenting the annexation of entire kingdoms due to claims is a step forward. But I still think there are big problems.


If you're saying that it is easy to manage incredibly large vassals, then you are mistaken.
 
Well, anyway, what's the simplest submod that would fix the problem of king-tier vassals?

Triggered by on_create_title, on_new_holder, and on_startup:
Event 1: Any kingdom title held by an emperor is immediately destroyed, so that it can't be given to a vassal.
Event 2: Any king-tier vassal of an emperor immediately gains independence.

Also, the title_king_basic_allow scripted trigger in common/scripted_triggers/emf_title_triggers.txt must be adjusted to prevent emperors from creating kingdoms.

See the attached (untested) mod.

Edit: Fixed to avoid destroying clan titles.

A version updated for HIP 2018-02-17 is available here.
 

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I was quoting your exact sentence. Emphasis mine:



If you're saying that it is easy to manage incredibly large vassals, then you are mistaken.

It's not as difficult as managing more vassals.
 
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Well, anyway, what's the simplest submod that would fix the problem of king-tier vassals?

Triggered by on_create_title, on_new_holder, and on_startup:
Event 1: Any kingdom title held by an emperor is immediately destroyed, so that it can't be given to a vassal.
Event 2: Any king-tier vassal of an emperor immediately gains independence.

Also, the title_king_basic_allow scripted trigger in common/scripted_triggers/emf_title_triggers.txt must be adjusted to prevent emperors from creating kingdoms.

See the attached (untested) mod.

I think this is a good idea. What do you mean by "scripted trigger must be adjusted"?
 
Not really. For millions of micro-vassals are easy to manage if you don't micro-manage them. You only have the artificial vassal limit in your way.

At least with large vassals, their threat isn't artificial: any revolt with them will be quite damning, and their wealth and influence lets them hold incredible sway within your court.
 
What do you mean by "scripted trigger must be adjusted"?
A few versions of HIP ago, the requirements for creating kingdoms were standardized in the title_king_basic_allow scripted trigger, rather than being scattered throughout the landed_titles files.
Aren't nomad clans king-tiered vassals of an emperor-tier khan? You do check for nomads, yes?
A fixed version has been uploaded.
 
What are you talking about? I didn't say that. I said large number s of vassals are more difficult to manage, not that large vassals are difficult to manage.
Removing Vassal kings in no way prevents you from having a small number of huge vassals, all you need is to give a duke a kingdoms worth of duchies and there you go a vassal king in pretty much all but name.
 
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A few versions of HIP ago, the requirements for creating kingdoms were standardized in the title_king_basic_allow scripted trigger, rather than being scattered throughout the landed_titles files.

A fixed version has been uploaded.

Adjusted how do you mean though? Like how do I have to edit it.
 
Removing Vassal kings in no way prevents you from having a small number of huge vassals, all you need is to give a duke a kingdoms worth of duchies and there you go a vassal king in pretty much all but name.

Yeah but those will tend to break up and they won't have a dejure claim on huge swaths of land then. Anyway I think this debate is mostly settled since Toa Kraka came up with a stopgap fix.
 
I included it in the mod that I uploaded.

Ok thanks. I'd post this in the main thread, although I don't think the instant independence part is necessary.
 
I'd post this in the main thread
Do you mean in the general modding forum? It wouldn't work outside HIP, because, in order to prevent emperors from creating kingdoms, it relies on overwriting common/scripted_triggers/emf_title_triggers.txt, which is specific to EMF.
 
Do you mean in the general modding forum? It wouldn't work outside HIP, because, in order to prevent emperors from creating kingdoms, it relies on overwriting common/scripted_triggers/emf_title_triggers.txt, which is specific to EMF.

No I mean just for HIP.
 
No I mean just for HIP.
I doubt that it's necessary. Anyone who dislikes vassal kings enough to want to remove them will see this thread (either in the catalog of threads or by searching for "vassal king") and download it from here.

To make it simpler to find, just add a link to the bottom of the OP of this thread, leading to the mod, like this: "Edit: Here's a fix."
 
Part of the issue is that HIP has made some Kingdom titles King rank and actualy should be Petty King (Duke). Aquitaine is of them. There was never a King of Aquitaine it was always the Duc of Aquitaine. If they were Independent they called them Kings. Brittney is anther one. That Should be a Duke Rank . Austria should be Duke Rank so when Leon is Created the Austria Title is a Titular (Ducal). Historical the Austria Title became an honorary Title to the First born of the El Rey or The King.

Empires and Kingdoms
One of the issues is we dont have Archduchesses in game (Multi ducal Title) The HRE did this Historically
So really in the game when an Emperor Rank vassals a King rank That king is now a Arch-Duke not a king. (He would have rank of a King but his demise and laws are limted to a duke rank (No Crown Authority) Because the Crown Authority belongs to the Emperor. That could be just a Localization or a text fix. And Law changes(i have no Idea what you would call and Arch-Duke for the Byzantine or Persian Empires but Im sure there is an Historical rank for it.
 
Part of the issue is that HIP has made some Kingdom titles King rank and actualy should be Petty King (Duke). Aquitaine is of them. There was never a King of Aquitaine it was always the Duc of Aquitaine. If they were Independent they called them Kings. Brittney is anther one. That Should be a Duke Rank . Austria should be Duke Rank so when Leon is Created the Austria Title is a Titular (Ducal). Historical the Austria Title became an honorary Title to the First born of the El Rey or The King.

Empires and Kingdoms
One of the issues is we dont have Archduchesses in game (Multi ducal Title) The HRE did this Historically
So really in the game when an Emperor Rank vassals a King rank That king is now a Arch-Duke not a king. (He would have rank of a King but his demise and laws are limted to a duke rank (No Crown Authority) Because the Crown Authority belongs to the Emperor. That could be just a Localization or a text fix. And Law changes(i have no Idea what you would call and Arch-Duke for the Byzantine or Persian Empires but Im sure there is an Historical rank for it.
So, your suggestions are:
- Vassal kingdoms should have no Crown Authority laws; and
- Vassal kingdoms should be localized as "archduchies".

Am I understanding you correctly?