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faiuwle

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Sep 3, 2016
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In this mod, we've replaced the vanilla "African paganism" with three new real religions in their own religion group, with new mechanics: Bori in Central Africa, A Tat Roog in West Africa, and Amazigh for Berbers.

So get ready to get possessed by weird spirits, enforce the caste system just to flex on 'em casteless and restore the Carthaginian Empire to its full glory so you can burn the Pope’s house and salt the land.

(I am the one who did the technical modding, so I can answer questions about mechanics and fix bugs, but if you want to know more about the history and the religions you should ask @Atimo3. Also, if you want to help out and can make icons, let me know!)

Bori
bori.png

The term bori generally refers to a form of animism practiced among the Hausa people, although similar cults have been noted among peoples of the Lake Chad region like the Zaghawa. In short it is a religion centered on possession, in which the faithful directly seek to channel old spirits for their power. Unlike Abrahamic religions who pray to a distant god, to the believers of bori, the spirits are a part of everyday life that can be interacted with directly. The faith is traditionally organized around a hierarchized all-female priestly class with a religious head known as the Inna.

Bori is a fully organized religion with a religious head and autocephaly/pentarchy mechanics (albeit, there are only two “pentarchs”: the religious head, who has jurisdiction over Hausaland and Kanem-Bornu, and a second “pentarch” who has jurisdiction over Kanem), but it still has some paganish mechanics, such as concubines, conversion resistance, and defensive attrition. The clergy is all female, and characters with the religion effectively have all the benefits of the status of women laws at game start, including access to all gender laws (including the enatic ones). Additionally, all 769 Hausaland starts have Enatic succession. Neither kind of gavelkind is available to Bori rulers; instead, Eldership is your default succession law. Kanuri rulers have a special honorary title called Chiroma, which they can give to their intended heir, which will cause Elders to gain 40 points towards them for voting purposes, and Eldership is additionally also available (and default) for Kanuri Muslims, based on the historical succession law of Kanem. In this mod, Elders are also slightly more likely to be Pleased and less likely to be Ecstatic, so hopefully the honorary title should be more useful. There are six patron boris, which work like patron deities. There is a festival in October or later, which involves a parade and a horse race.

There are two important decisions available to Bori rulers: first, an emperor-tier Bori with a good relationship with the (king-tier) religious head can vassalize her, and second is the “Exalt the Inna” decision, which turns the Inna into a Pope-like religious head, gives her more powers, and unlocks Bori Great Holy Wars. (Known issue: the religous head UI will still look like the autocephaly UI after this decision, but there will only be the religious head and she will behave like the Pope.) We are looking at adding more bonuses following this decision in the future. There is a Bori holy order which unlocks when Kano or Djimi fall to non-Africans, when jihads unlock, or at the latest in 1066. Bori have access to county conquest and holy war CBs.

Additionally, we have fixed the history files in the 769 Hausaland starts, and created a new historical bloodline that is present in 769 Kanem. The existing historical bloodline belonging to the Chieftess of Daura in 867 (whose name was corrected to Daurama from Magajiva) has been split into two: one for her husband, Bayajidda, with the PCS, Hausa opinion, and prestige, and one for herself, with church opinion, piety, and access to Enatic-Cognatic succession. Both bloodlines are patrilineal. The result is that a) Bayajidda’s son and heir, whose mother was not Daurama, actually gets his bloodline, and b) both bloodlines survive into later start dates. Bayajidda and Daurama also both have Wikipedia links. There are also new localizations for central African councillors.

West Sahelian
ck2_532.png

The Western Sahel is home of a wide variety of religious traditions, this faith is meant to work as an umbrella for all these cults, letting the player choose which specific branch they want to focus on. It includes all the common elements of the West Sahelian religions: Fixation on the Sirius star, strict caste system and some weird myths about hermaphrodite jackals.

West Sahelian is a reformable religion in west Africa. It mostly has the qualities of a defensive pagan religion, except that vassals and councillors are not averse to higher levels of tribal organization, and it allows raiding. It uses castes, and A Tat Roog characters have caste opinions similar to Hindu rulers. (Known issue: Hindus will have opinions on A Tat Roog castes and vice versa.) Like Bori, no form of gavelkind is available and Eldership succession is the default. The A Tat Roog reformation doctrine has Eldership, Haruspicy (also with its synergies with Astrology and Bloodthirsty Gods, if either of those are chosen), Polygamy, and the unit modifiers of the Unrelenting doctrine. If you reform the religion without choosing a doctrine that allows Eldership, your succession law will default to Seniority, which is available even as tribal (and you will still have access to the other non-gavelkind successions after feudalizing). There is an A Tat Roog holy order which unlocks when Gao, Timbuktu or Wagadou fall to non-Africans, when jihads are unlocked, or at the latest in 1066. A Tat Roog have access to the county conquest CB, as well as subjugation while unreformed, and holy war after reformation. There are four branches: Serer, Dogon, Malinke, and Sarakole. There is a festival in the summer that involves sacrificing a female character to a snake god - this is mostly associated with Sarakole branch but is available to all West Sahelian characters.

Additionally, we have renamed some of the titles in west Africa, replaced the Kingdom of Mali with the Empire of Mali in the history files, and added two new historical bloodlines for the Keita dynasty (in 769 and 1234), two new bloodlines for the Cisse dynasty (in 769 and 1066) and a new bloodline in Gao in 769. We have removed the Mansa Musa bloodline, since he was not a very notable ruler to the Malians, but if you want to play Mansa Musa, he has both of the new bloodlines, and the Mari-Djata bloodline is very similar to the Mansa Musa bloodline. There are also a number of new characters added to history files related to the first bloodline, and the founder has a Wikipedia link. There are also new localizations for west African councillors.

We have other features planned for A Tat Roog in the future.

Amazigh
amazigh.png

Amazigh is the name the Berbers give themselves. It’s a meme religion, but less of a meme religion than Zunbil. While the other religions on this mod were researched from academic text made by anthropologists or at least colonial officers pretending to be anthropologists, the Amazigh religion is a collection of the various and often confusing religious practices that the Berbers had over the centuries. As such it mixes the Phoenician-Numidian faith of old Carthage as recorded by the Roman colonizers, the Medieval practices of the last North African pagan kings as witnessed by the Arab conquerors and the last surviving forms of pure paganism as seen by the Spaniards in their conquest of the Canaries.

Amazigh is a reformable Berber religion that works very similarly to an offensive pagan religion. They are somewhat feminist - there is no female ruler/heir penalty, and women can hold council positions and be commanders, but they do not get access to all gender laws. Their succession laws work like pagan succession laws - they start out in agnatic elective gavelkind and gain more succession laws after they reform and feudalize. Their reformation doctrine has prepared invasions, seafaring, and Bloodthirsty Gods mechanics. (Known issue: you can’t read the description of the reformation doctrine from the list of doctrines, but if you select the doctrine and hover the mouse over it, you can read it.) There is an Amazigh holy order that unlocks shortly after the game begins, regardless of the date. Amazigh have access to the county conquest CB, as well as subjugation before reformation and holy war afterwards. There are five patron deities. There is a festival in Ausgust similar to a summer fair.

If you are reformed Amazigh and have the Empire of Maghreb as your primary title, you can reform the Carthaginian Empire by completely controlling the duchies of Tunis, Tripolitania, Tangiers, and Sous. This gives you a bloodline and a trait, similar to the bloodline and the Augustus trait you get from reforming Rome. Reforming Carthage also gives you access to two new CBs: Imperial Reconquest, which works like the Roman one, except it targets the kingdoms of Maghreb, Africa, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, Valencia, Badajoz, and Andalusia and works versus Muslims. After exhausting this CB and completely controlling all of those kingdoms, you will get an SPQR-like event congratulating you. The second CB is a CB that you can use to invade whoever controls Rome and/or Constantinople, and salt the city afterwards, destroying most of the holdings and buildings there and damaging your opponent’s moral authority. It appears as “Salt <county>” in the declare war UI. It is an invasion CB, so although you are only guaranteed to take the target city (Rome or Constantinople) you also usurp every county you have sieged one holding in. The CB costs 1000 piety to use, and can only be used successfully for each city once per game. The emperor of any Roman successor states (the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the HRE, or the Latin Empire) will also be able to use this CB to target the current capital of Carthage (but only once successfully). Winning a war to salt a county also allows you to loot 2000 gold from the county you destroy.

Features of all three religions
The following features are common to all three religions:
  • Intermarriage with all other African religions and with Muslims (although A Tat Roog will have trouble with intermarriage due to castes)
  • GHWs - after either A Tat Roog or Amazigh has been reformed, or a Bori has used the “Exalt the Inna” decision, an event can fire to unlock GHWs for all African religions that have reformed/exalted the Inna, similar to the event for pagans. The only other requirement for the event is that Jihads must be unlocked. The event has a MTTH of ten years. There are also crusader traits for all three religions.
  • Worship the ancestors decision is available for all religions
  • Each religion has a secret society and access to the vanilla African warrior lodge
Future Features
Right now I consider the mod to be in an alpha stage, because there are many things still planned for the future, and I plan to continue to work on the mod daily. Here are the things I definitely plan to add, in more or less priority order:
  • Branches for West Sahelian [DONE]
  • Patron deities for Bori and Amazigh [DONE]
  • Festivals for all three religions [DONE]
  • Pilgrimage event chain for West Sahelian
  • Spirit possession decision for Bori
  • Wrestling tournament for Bori and West Sahelian
  • Adaptation and relocalization of rite of passage events for all three religions
  • Event chain for Bori in the 769 start mimicking Bayajidda’s arrival in Hausaland and the conversion to male succession
  • Miscellaneous flavor events
  • Adaptation of certain rare vanilla events
  • Great pillar building for tribals
  • Crown artifacts for temporal religious heads
  • Devil worshipper societies
  • Komo society for Bori
Compatibility
Due to the way the Paradox code for a lot of the things I modified here is basically all over the place, I suspect this will not be compatible with most other religion mods (unless they for example only modify localization) and is definitely not compatible with anything that changes the map or the history files in Africa. I’d be willing to help someone else make a compatible version for other mods, but I will focus on this version.

Technically, you do not need any DLC to play this mod, but it is highly recommended that you have Holy Fury, since without it you won’t get Eldership or the reformation doctrines. This is also definitely not compatible with playing the game in an alternate start with random religions, and alternate starts in general have not been tested with it and are likely to have problems.

Known Compatible Mods (to be updated)
Starts
Because there are relatively few Amazigh starts, I am listing them all here, to help you find them.

Religion map 769
ck2_519.png

769 Amazigh starts

High Chief of Fezzan
High Chief of Adrar
High Chief of Air
Chief of Tinmallal
Chief of Sous
Chief of Anfa
Chief of Taghaza
Chief of Araouane
Chief of Canarias
Chief of Warzazat

Religion map 867
ck2_520.png


867 Amazigh starts

High Chief of Fezzan
High Chief of Adrar
High Chief of Air
Chief of Sous
Chief of Taghaza
Chief of Canarias

Religion map 936

ck2_521.png


936 Amazigh starts

High Chief of Fezzan
High Chief of Adrar
High Chief of Air
Chief of Ifni
Chief of Taghaza
Chief of Canarias

Religion map 1066

ck2_522.png


1066 Amazigh starts

High Chief of Fezzan
Sheikh of Canarias (feudal)
Chief of Tagant

In addition to the starts, there are some counties in North Africa and along the Red Sea that have Amazigh religion, which you could use to secretly convert to Amazigh.

[A Tat Roog caste icon credits: Foro Jakhanke Wangara]
 
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It looks great and creative!
But why Carthaginian Empire? I 'd say that I think it's better to have an seperate phoenician religion which allows doing so. Maybe it's better for Amazighs to reform Numidia.
Or at least please make Numidia a cultural name for African. It just sounds strange for me that descendents of Masinissa would call themselves Carthage.
 
Wow! Very creative!
I like that you have divided African religion into several ones. It does add more variety to the continent which certainly deserves some more care. I especially like that you feminized the Berbers. In their societies women traditionaly had (and still have) quite strong position. Well done!

As somebody who has heavily participated on the vanilla setup, I can say that we tried to add few more religions to Africa, but due to time and other limitations, one religion with more deities was the most we could get. I'm glad that the modding community tries to expand this. Keep it up, guys! I am always glad to see mods improving Africa. Unfortunately most of mods I have seen so far use anachronistic or otherwise incorrect sources.

I have few questions, though. For most of them probably @Atimo3 would be the right person to answer...

1) May I ask which of the gods of Holy Fury setup are from outside the map? As far as I remember researching them, this was why the original gods presented in the DD were later reviewed and replaced by those, who ended up on the vanilla African paganism. Would you please care to elaborate why you think they are outside the map and which of them you mean?

2) Could you please share your knowledge about the pagan revival among the Lamtuna, which has overthrown the Almoravid rule in Adrar region? This is very interesting information I have never came across. All sources I know speak about a son of Abu Bakr returning to the south and ruling over those of Lamtuna, who prefered to stay with their traditional desert life. They all assume that they all remained muslim, like several generations before and all after them. This info would be truly revolutionary, where can I find it?

3) Also, could you please elaborete a bit more about the deities added? I don't claim to be expert on African pagan gods, I know a lot more about the Islamized Sahel. When researching for pagan gods of medieval Sahel I have somehow missed info about any of them. But I have to admit that I wasn't able to find many academic sources. Since @faiuwle mentioned that this was mainly based on them, could you please share them with me? I desperately search for more academic sources about pre-islamic Sahel.

4) I have probably missed something, but as far as I have learned so far, medieval West Africa was dominated by various Mande people - first the Soninke, later the Malinke and not the Serer, whose god you use here. Since you probably have better access to good academic sources, why didn't you base the West African religion on the Bida god of the Soninke and used a Serer deity? AFAIK it is the Serer who are outside of the game's map, while the Mande people are in. Or am I wrong?

5) Could you please explain what does Amazigh religion fo in Wadai?

Lastly, as I wrote, when researching for the vanilla setup I was able to find only very few academic sources. However I have to insist that this really has nothing to do with Black Panther film, since I have never watched it and hence it is impossible that it would inspire me. :)

I really do welcome any initiative which deepens interest in Africa, so please don't take this post too critically. If you can sense a defensive position, it is a reaction to the (IMHO unnecessary and invalid) attack against the vanilla setup, which has some downsides, but from my perspective seems still little more accurate than the one presented in this mod.
 
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5) Could you please explain what does Amazigh religion fo in Wadai?

I can't answer most of your questions, but I can answer this one. At least in the earlier start dates, the rulers of Wadai and some of the counties are Berber, and our rule of thumb was to turn African pagan Berbers into Amazigh. There is also Daju culture over there, however. This is the only east African culture to have African paganism associated with it - Atimo looked up what sort of paganism the Daju practiced and apparently it was a very different religion with very few sources available. So, instead of trying to make a fourth religion based on very little actual knowledge, we just made that area Amazigh in order to increase the number of Amazigh rulers (since there were so few anyway).
 
1) May I ask which of the gods of Holy Fury setup are from outside the map?

The big two offenders would be Dan which is a Vodun god and Anansi which is an Akan god. This would place them both in the Gulf of Guinea region, more to the south.

2) Could you please share your knowledge about the pagan revival among the Lamtuna

I actually had some trouble researching the area around Sous.

If I am remembering correctly I think the final decision came down to gameplay reasons, as to offer some Amazigh rulers on the earliest dates. Since the first start date is so close to the Kharijite Berber Revolt we prioritized the tribal rulers that vanilla does not label as part of a Kharijite cult or a Kharijite heresy. Since that little corner of the map is labeled Shia by default, it was the first one to go.

3) Also, could you please elaborete a bit more about the deities added?

For the A tat Roog the list of deities is simply a quick collection of Serer minor deities (So I didn't saw further than old editions of Britannica). Bori has a lot more involvement of the minor panteon and as such the main source was "The Ban of the Bori" by Arthur John Newman Tremearne with some cross-reference with "Man in Africa" by M. Douglas (the second source is a lot more recent but the first one provides a much more comprehensive description of the faith).

4) I have probably missed something, but as far as I have learned so far, medieval West Africa was dominated by various Mande people

The a ƭat Roog religion as it appears in the mod is not really the a ƭat Roog religion, but rather an amalgamation of various cults of the region (and that's the treatment given on the flavor text). The Serer, who had historical presence across the Gambia river and as such would at least be a minor population in the most south west part of the map, name was chosen as it offers a very generic translation as far as reigious names go ("the way to the Divine" is a very general way to call a religion all things considered). As of right now the faith is very bare bones and the long term plan is shape the mechanics after the various cults of the region; for instance the caste system right now follows the Manding naming convention rather than the Serer one.

5) Could you please explain what does Amazigh religion fo in Wadai?

Because the Daju have their own traditional religion that as far as I know doesn't resemble bori at all. Making a fourth religion for a region that I really didn't know much about and only to be used in 3 counties seemed like a bad idea, and since they are ruled by a Berber character in the first few start dates, the region just got stuck with that.

However I have to insist that this really has nothing to do with Black Panther film

Just a joke mate. The African religion is not perfect in the game but it's definitely better than that movie randomly naming Hindu gods in the middle of East Africa.
 
This is amazing! Thank you so much for making and sharing this. Africa has always needed more love, and you're really giving it the treatment it deserves. I'm definitely going to be using this mod.
 
Why can Berbers reform Carthage, Should there not be a independent Carthaginian culture and religion That can reform Carthage?

The Amazigh is by far the most meme religion of the bunch, definitely take anything you see on that one with a grain of salt (or more than one). Religion in ancient Carthage was a mixture of Phoenician and Numidian practices, with the patron goddess of the city being Tanit, which seem to be of Berber origin due to the -nit part of tha name. The worship of Tanit would continue after the fall of Carthage among the pagan Berbers, the last of which were probably the guanches who worshiped “Chaxiraxi” before the Spanish arrived.


It is very much a massive stretch of the imagination to expect the few tribal pagans to restore their goddess old Carthaginian Empire, and it’s made purposely difficult to do precisely for that reason. It is a somewhat silly thing, so feel free to threat it as such.
 
What if we had some events akin to the Roman Rennaisance events that actually did restore a Carthaginian culture that would then be required for the decision? I know you don't like the culture system at all, but the events might add some immersion.
 
This really sounds great and I'm interested in seeing the new events.
As an aside re: Black Panther iirc some writer changed their god's name from the generic "Panther God(s?)" to "Bast" which really ticked me off. I have no idea why they would do such a thing. The former may not have been in line with other African religions but to me that was the point: they had a religion that was foreign to everyone else including other Africans.
 
I can't answer most of your questions, but I can answer this one. At least in the earlier start dates, the rulers of Wadai and some of the counties are Berber, and our rule of thumb was to turn African pagan Berbers into Amazigh.
Because the Daju have their own traditional religion that as far as I know doesn't resemble bori at all. Making a fourth religion for a region that I really didn't know much about and only to be used in 3 counties seemed like a bad idea, and since they are ruled by a Berber character in the first few start dates, the region just got stuck with that.
Thank you guys.
Well, the Berber rulers were there probably because the Zaghawa people living there, were sometimes identified as Berbers. I don't know exactly, though, since I didn't do anything with this part of the map.
Now I understand. I thought you based it on some actual information about some closer relations between the Zaghawa and Berbers, but it was actually your re-interpretation of vanilla's misinterpretation, right?

Haven't you thought about making some sort of East African religion too? Which could be some sort of amalgamation of the Daju and the Beja paganism? I know that about the Beja paganism even less is known than about the Daju or Berber, but it would IMHO be little more apropriate than to have Berber paganism in East Africa, don't you think?

we just made that area Amazigh in order to increase the number of Amazigh rulers (since there were so few anyway).
Well, since you did this to increase the otherwise low number of Amazigh rulers, shoudln't you instead reconsider this religion to disappear in and after 936? As far as I have studied Berber history, there were no pagan Berbers after mid 10th century. (EDIT: well, now I remember that there might have been one Berber chieftan, who tried to return to paganism in 11th century, but he was very briefly defeated)
I do admit that even the academic sources I know all use Muslim written sources (+ archaeology and other sciences), but throughout the years of my studies of Berber history I didn't come across anything what would support pagan Berbers in second third of 10th century. And absolutely nothing to support pagan Berbers in second half of the 11th century and later.

The big two offenders would be Dan which is a Vodun god and Anansi which is an Akan god. This would place them both in the Gulf of Guinea region, more to the south.
Oh yes, these 2. I almost forgot that in the end we decided to keep them. Yes, it was gameplay and other resons - because the African religion represented amalgamtion of various cults, we wanted them to be diverse and offer various bonuses. We had few more accurate candidates, but they would have very similar bonuses, so we decided for these. And after all, as far as we interpreted the map, the Akan touch the southern border of the map somehow. Actually they are in no less than the Serer. So what's the problem with Akan deity if you name one of your 3 religions on Serer mythology anyways?

I actually had some trouble researching the area around Sous.
Eh?
What does Sous have to do with Adrar and removing its historical ruler by somebody with wrong religion?
And if you have some trouble researching, why then do you replace something what has really strong base in academic sources?
The Sous area was inhabited partly by Lamta and partly by the Gazzula tribes IIRC.

If I am remembering correctly I think the final decision came down to gameplay reasons, as to offer some Amazigh rulers on the earliest dates. Since the first start date is so close to the Kharijite Berber Revolt we prioritized the tribal rulers that vanilla does not label as part of a Kharijite cult or a Kharijite heresy. Since that little corner of the map is labeled Shia by default, it was the first one to go.
Oh yes, it is indeed one of possible interpretations that Berber Kharijism was a form of anti-muslim movement. But most academic sources now support a theory that it was rather a political oposition against harsh Arab rule, which took religious backing thanks to some Kharijite immigrants to the Maghreb. In fact Berbers accepted Islam very fast and were very dedicated in spreading it and later reforming it. Hence all the numerous reformist movements among Berbers. It had hardly anything to do with attempts to revive Paganism.

I understand that you wanted to add something interesting and you both admit that the Amazigh religion is very much a meme religion...

It just feels really weird to see my effort and hard research insulted in the OP of this thread and then read your answers in which you - point by point - admit that my academic researched work was replaced by some sort of your baseless fantasies.

For the A tat Roog the list of deities is simply a quick collection of Serer minor deities (So I didn't saw further than old editions of Britannica). Bori has a lot more involvement of the minor panteon and as such the main source was "The Ban of the Bori" by Arthur John Newman Tremearne with some cross-reference with "Man in Africa" by M. Douglas (the second source is a lot more recent but the first one provides a much more comprehensive description of the faith).
thanks

The a ƭat Roog religion as it appears in the mod is not really the a ƭat Roog religion, but rather an amalgamation of various cults of the region (and that's the treatment given on the flavor text). The Serer, who had historical presence across the Gambia river and as such would at least be a minor population in the most south west part of the map, name was chosen as it offers a very generic translation as far as reigious names go ("the way to the Divine" is a very general way to call a religion all things considered). As of right now the faith is very bare bones and the long term plan is shape the mechanics after the various cults of the region; for instance the caste system right now follows the Manding naming convention rather than the Serer one.
Thanks for explanation. I am looking forward how will this religion appear in the end.
But, since the Serer are on the map no more than the Akan, don't you think it would be a little better to base it on cults, about which we know as central for the pagan regions which are fully depicted on this map? Or at least don't name it after a cult which touched the edges of the map no more than the criticized Anansi?

I have to admit I am struggling hard. You guys are doing a wonderfull job and I'm all with you... but at the same time my blood really boils to see that my hard-researched work has been insulted (although you claim it as a joke) only to be replaced by something what either is baseless fantasy or something what is exactly the same as things I have been criticized for. But let's be constructive.

I know that Serer religion and cults are much more accessible, because - unlike the Soninke or Malinke pagan cults - it has survived long enough so we have some information about it.
But - when you criticize the vanilla for putting cults which are outside the map, why do you name one of your major religions after a cult which also comes from outside the map?
If the religion is amalgamation of Mande and other cults, why don't you base it on the cults we know and which are on the map?

Just a joke mate. The African religion is not perfect in the game but it's definitely better than that movie randomly naming Hindu gods in the middle of East Africa.
Ah, thanks for explanation. You know it is really hard to understand it as a joke when in the OP I read that my work is an insult to Africa and that it is based on Black Panther, while this mod is based on academic sources.
And then when I read your answers I realize that despite the claims in the OP... well I guess I already said what.

But despite this all, I really appreciate that you are making this mod. Just if you could please remove the insult (whether you call it a joke or not, it is insulting)... and it will be much easier for me to help you :)

Looking forward to seing more your amazing stuff!
 
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my hard-researched work has been insulted

Buddy I feel like this is the crux of the entire thing and I really want to apologize if I offended you. I was aiming for a humorous used car salesman tone when I wrote that intro and I really wasn't expecting anybody on the dev team to care or even react to it.

If it felt like a personal attack I really want to asure you that I got absolutely nothing against you as a person or a dev, and that I am very aware of how much of a pain in the ass doing research on this part of the world can be. Again, I am sorry if at any point I hurt you in any way.
 
Elvain, it was never our intention to insult your hard work, and I'm sorry that our attempt to grab some attention with the intro had that effect. I think I've removed the parts of it that were insulting.
 
Buddy I feel like this is the crux of the entire thing and I really want to apologize if I offended you. I was aiming for a humorous used car salesman tone when I wrote that intro and I really wasn't expecting anybody on the dev team to care or even react to it.

If it felt like a personal attack I really want to asure you that I got absolutely nothing against you as a person or a dev, and that I am very aware of how much of a pain in the ass doing research on this part of the world can be. Again, I am sorry if at any point I hurt you in any way.

Hehe, you are right and are not at the same time.
First of all I'm not a dev, nor nowhere near that. I'm just giving them supportive information when and where possible.

But more importantly, don't take my posts as attack against your work. I did my best (and I struggled hard) not to strike back in similar insults you used against work we did for Paradox (it was a team effort in which I was only small part). Although you probably sense the hurt feelings, all I wrote was meant to improve this mod, not to attack it. Just swallow the pill of somebody being critical about your work, like I had to. Unlike you I did what I could not to attack your work.

So now when we cleared the air and explained ourselves, let's talk without emotions and seek ways to make this mod what it wants to be - an improvement.

- Is it really necessary to have the Amazigh religion in all early start dates? Shouldn't the Pagans among the Berbers really be only in 769 and 867? Is it really necessary to replace historical characters by fantasy ones in order to have Berber pagans in period when there were none?
- When you were against gods of people not represented on the map, isn't it better to have the West African religion based on other than Serer religion? I know that sources about the Serer are easily accessible - much easier than about the Bida of the Soninke - but as you said, there is relatively enough information about other Mande societies so they would work nicely just as Mande religion. Don't you think?
- don't you want to really reconsider the addition of some sort of East African paganism for the Daju and the Beja?

I know that the Amazigh and the East African paganisms will most probably struggle with lack of characters (that's actually one of reasons why vanilla has only one religion, but at least with enough rulers)

Anyway these are all just suggestions, so if you want, you can just ignore them. I just wanted to help with some constructive points. Hope I managed it despite feeling
 
I seem to remember that at one time the Amazigh characters were mainly concentrated in the 769 and 867 starts, but then when we revisited the history files after the Iron Century update we added some more characters. I don't believe we added more characters to 1066, though, I think all those characters must have been from turning vanilla Berber/African characters into Berber/Amazigh characters (or Daju/African to Daju/Amazigh).

The main reason I wouldn't be in favor of adding a separate Daju religion is that I don't think we have enough information about it to give it interesting mechanics, and so there would just be these characters that no one would want to play, that don't really have any flavor or interesting endgame to work towards. I did think about making those characters Bori instead, since they are so far from the other Amazigh characters. But then there is the question about what to do with the Berber rulers in that area (and even in the early starts, 2/3 of those counties are Berber).
 
I seem to remember that at one time the Amazigh characters were mainly concentrated in the 769 and 867 starts, but then when we revisited the history files after the Iron Century update we added some more characters. I don't believe we added more characters to 1066, though, I think all those characters must have been from turning vanilla Berber/African characters into Berber/Amazigh characters (or Daju/African to Daju/Amazigh).
I'm almost certain that this isn't the case of rulers of c_ouadane and c_bir_um_grein in 1066, where you have different character than vanilla. So these have to be newly added characters.
As for 936 you seem to only have changed the religion of historical Lamtuna chiefs to Amazigh.
Without access to sources I don't remember when the Lamtuna converted to Islam, but I am pretty sure it was few generations before the advent of Almoravid movement, which was meant to improve Islam in the Sahara, not to spread it. I believe it was very probable that by 936 they were already muslims, but now I can't prove it.

The main reason I wouldn't be in favor of adding a separate Daju religion is that I don't think we have enough information about it to give it interesting mechanics, and so there would just be these characters that no one would want to play, that don't really have any flavor or interesting endgame to work towards. I did think about making those characters Bori instead, since they are so far from the other Amazigh characters. But then there is the question about what to do with the Berber rulers in that area (and even in the early starts, 2/3 of those counties are Berber).
As we all know, the Berber characters in the area are mis-interpretation of the relations between the Zaghawa and Berbers.
Just like you changed their religion into amazigh, you can as easily change their culture. They're fictional placeholders anyways. You can add the Zaghawa culture (IIRC it is freely available in cybrxkhan's thread of New cultures), and make them Zaghawa, or make them Daju, or try to find better ones. I think there's no reason to remove historical characters from the western parts of Sahara because of few fantasy placeholders in Wadai, don't you agree?
 
concerning addition of a new religion to East African pagans - there actually were few more pagans than just the Daju and the Beja.

If it is no problem to join Manden and Serer religions under name of Serer god, why couldn't similar thing be done to East African pagans.
But I understand the argument of very little information. There certainly isn't enough info to make separate religions for the Daju, the Beja and others (in southern Ethiopia there were also pagans IIRC all the way until 11th century, perhaps even longer), but it might be enough for them to make some joint "East African paganism". Although I know it sounds weird and wouldn't be very accurate, it's a question whether it would be better than having them follow Berber religion from the other end of Africa, or neighbouring Bori, although it was different.

That's one of reasons why vanilla has only one religion there - to prevent this kind of problems
 
I'm almost certain that this isn't the case of rulers of c_ouadane and c_bir_um_grein in 1066, where you have different character than vanilla. So these have to be newly added characters.

Oh, yes, sorry, I'd forgotten that those characters were added in 1066, as opposed to 936. Atimo said that those counties should really have been independent at that date, and since they were held by the Sultan I had to create new characters to hold them in order to make them independent. I believe we made those characters Amazigh because the provinces were Amazigh (which was because they were Berber), but he can probably tell you more about that decision.

As we all know, the Berber characters in the area are mis-interpretation of the relations between the Zaghawa and Berbers.
Just like you changed their religion into amazigh, you can as easily change their culture. They're fictional placeholders anyways. You can add the Zaghawa culture (IIRC it is freely available in cybrxkhan's thread of New cultures), and make them Zaghawa, or make them Daju, or try to find better ones. I think there's no reason to remove historical characters from the western parts of Sahara because of few fantasy placeholders in Wadai, don't you agree?

Well, Zaghawa is a vanilla culture, if it comes to that, that we should simply make them Zaghawa (and therefore Bori, since we made all central Africans Bori). But I would like to hear from Atimo first. The changes to the western Sahara starts were really unrelated to anything we did in East Africa, though.