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Okay, I'll be more blunt then. If you want to make Britain the grand enemy, final boss of the AAR, go ahead, go all out, it'll be fun. But all the constant little asides, the way you write them, don't scream "This is the perspective of the nation/Chiang". They scream "hi, my writer has an axe to grind, and he's going to make sure you know it every chance he gets".
And I'm saying this now because you're getting into that territory concerning Bose eventually, and the wider movement. I'm merely saying heed this if you don't want to write something wildly inaccurate about the feelings and such of the nation as a whole. And as for most evil empire, that's highly debatable, and is, even in India today. This isn't the place to open that, but your "topping most evil empire lists" is more indicative of where you go for information, who you listen to than anything. Now I haven't said anything before, even though I think you're not doing the Chinese view complete service either, but didn't say anything - I 'know people' too.
Again, this is your narrative, and I thus am just this once or so, pointing this out. And you're totally free to write what you want, how you want. But if you're going to blatantly politicize something and use the narrative as a vehicle to convey the author's personal biases constantly, it's going to elicit this sort of reaction no matter what. Remember, this is a story. Now of course I'll read still, but now is as good a time as any to say this.
Warning taken. And appreciated ^^
This discussion has gone into far more of my personal opinions about Bose than I'm willing to put into an AAR.
And no, I do not rely on such lists for my information. But they make easy conjectures that doesn't require me to type a research paper going down the list of British crimes (who would also break forum rules).
Oh I know I'm not doing the Chinese view complete service. It's far too complicated. Again, this is an AAR, not a history book. I keep chapter wordcounts below a certain length.
I'd challenge you to quote me a single Indian leader who actually said "the British Empire was good for us".
Interesting you think the events about UK are 'politicizing', when I've mostly been summing up a list of League of Nations events from the Indiana University, many using the list's own descriptions.
Seeing as that's the first thing I like to talk to Indians about -- how their nation manages to retain one identity despite its huge flux in cultures (3 cultural groups!) and religions and languages... you're preaching to the choir here =P
And yes, I ask Indians which part of India they're from. It's very important! Being Marathi vs being from Delhi gives huge differences in perspective.
I'm writing a AAR, not a history book. Of course it's more complicated lol!
Um, any flipping of history books mention nothing of "Bose Clique" being arrested, just "INC leaders". Comments like those are very misleading. The Quit India Movement in 1942 was organized by the Gandhi Clique, which triggered broad, sweeping arrests across the INC. That's why I say proper discussions were stymied, because even those who were against Bose's ideology but in support of Indian independence were removed. This left the British viewpoint rather unopposed, as the AIML were effectively "British collaborators" during the war.
As a Chinese historian I read once said: one must ALWAYS question who wrote history and why they wrote it the way they did. Claims alone are often enough to cast issues into doubt (the fact we lack Gaullic records to oppose the Rome perspective does not make Roman perspectives reliable, due to their known penchant for bias and exaggeration).
The prime reason I believe Bose isn't a hypocrite is provided by his own actions: despite the war, and despite help by Abwehr agents in Afghanistan, he didn't go to the Axis first. No, he went to Moscow, to seek help from Stalin (as Bose is socialist-leaning). But Stalin disappointed him. In general, I can find few modern Indian sources calling Bose a hypocrite; most of it originating from western sources instead. Even Gandhi himself would praise Bose in 1945:
"Subhas Bose has died well. He was undoubtedly a patriot, though misguided." (in the Gandhian nonviolent resistance view).
Of course I'm aware of India's own nationalistic bias, even their own revisionism xD (some of the views forwarded by Bose supporters are blatantly untrue). Since one of the things I researched was the India-Paki Partition, avoiding nationalistic rhetoric was high priority.
(next update will be later tonight... no worries )
(Side note before I actually reply to this, anyone putting Britain as "the most evil empire" better have a really good reason because I think that is the biggest load of bollocks I've ever heard.)
Fair enough, I do agree that the British view went unopposed and this was to their eyes (and I'd argue from all eyes put in their shoes) a military necessity to avoid a colonial war in the middle of the World War.
One must always question the source, and I agree about the Gallic records, but I disagree that one should disregard the only voice heard. Perhaps I'm just disagreeing with disregarding biased sources rather than interrogating them.
I'd have to disagree here, unless Bose didn't know of the Death March, Nanjing et al. then I don't think that he can be called anything other than a hypocrite. I'm not sure about the Abwehr help so I shan't assume he knew he was supported by and helping those carrying out the Holocaust but those actions by Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany do if nothing else numerically outweigh Allied crimes and thus I feel he had to have been a hypocrite or painfully unaware of the realities of his allies. I still feel that to be opposed to imperialism on principle and yet side with powers that explicitly wanted to create their own empires is hypocritical to an extent. Perhaps Bose only cared about India and not the Poles, Russians etc, which would be a very different flaw but would absolve him of betrayed ideals.
Gandhi is all well and good, but let's not forget that during WW2 he praised Hitler and his ilk so it's not like he is free of some blame here either.
I'm curious if you have any book recommendations on Bose, and if any of those include info on how he viewed his puppet masters/allies and whether or not he knew of the gravity of the crimes of Japan and Germany. Also, did he view Burma as a natural addition part of India or did he view it as an unnatural appendage?
(On your sidenote: okay that was a more incendiary statement than needed since it's off-topic. Though given lists of evidence like India's GDP drop between subjugation and independence, the direct casuasation between railroads and starvation in the Raj, the Camps of the Boer War that inspired their more famous cousin, the largest drug trafficking operation in human history, the divide-and-rule / triple overlapping promises that turned Middle East into a basketcase, the 'let them starve' policies in Irish famines... we can go on for a while.)
I'd have to disagree here, unless Bose didn't know of the Death March, Nanjing et al. then I don't think that he can be called anything other than a hypocrite. I'm not sure about the Abwehr help so I shan't assume he knew he was supported by and helping those carrying out the Holocaust but those actions by Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany do if nothing else numerically outweigh Allied crimes and thus I feel he had to have been a hypocrite or painfully unaware of the realities of his allies. I still feel that to be opposed to imperialism on principle and yet side with powers that explicitly wanted to create their own empires is hypocritical to an extent. Perhaps Bose only cared about India and not the Poles, Russians etc, which would be a very different flaw but would absolve him of betrayed ideals.
You mean like how Churchill and Roosevelt (the champion of the US Progressive movement) worked with Stalin, despite knowing of the Great Purge and... those things in Siberia?
The enemy of my enemy is still my friend.
I've encountered fairly little about Bose's attitude towards Axis crimes. As for Burma, the only mention I encountered was in the Bollywood documentary Forgotten Army, which discussed Bose working with Aung San and promising to the Burmese that India would forever be grateful... so, clearly not treating them as a part of India.
(On your sidenote: okay that was a more incendiary statement than needed since it's off-topic. Though given lists of evidence like India's GDP drop between subjugation and independence, the direct casuasation between railroads and starvation in the Raj, the C-Camps of the Boer War that inspired their more famous cousin, the largest drug trafficking operation in human history, the divide-and-conquer / triple overlapping promises that turned Middle East into a basketcase, the 'let them starve' policies in Irish famines... we can go on for a while.)
You mean like how Churchill and Roosevelt (the champion of the US Progressive movement) worked with Stalin, despite knowing of the Great Purge and... those things in Siberia?
The enemy of my enemy is still my friend.
I've encountered fairly little about Bose's attitude towards Axis crimes. As for Burma, the only mention I encountered was in the Bollywood documentary Forgotten War, which discussed Bose working with Aung San and promising to the Burmese that India would forever be grateful... so, clearly not treating them as a part of India.
Completely agree on Roosevelt and Churchill, just curious about Bose. I'd argue the situation between W-Allies and Stalin is slightly different from Bose and Imperial Japan but I'd rather not distract this further
Anyway, going back to DH, will you be puppeting India or will it be a "free" member of the Axis?
What % of the population actually crack open the books some of us read?
Modern propaganda does not use censorship but marginalization of inconvenient facts. Too many Britons still claim that India benefited from colonialism because the British gave them railroads, administration, yadda yadda, and then withdrew voluntarily, because that is how British schoolbooks try to portray it. Highlighting 'benefits' while marginalizing crimes as 'anomalies' rather than 'policy'.
Then I talk to Indians and they just smile thinly... "the British likes to pretend they gave us independence." There's a reason why BBC was promoting Gandhi while being forbade to run documentaries on Bose during the pertinent time period.
and find out what capitalism and 'free trade'truly does to the third world nations ("exploitation" and "extortion" are the nicest words to describe it)... and then realize it's not history, it's the present.
To claim that Boer War concentration camps were similar to what took place under the Nazis and Soviets is innacurate. Boer War camps were used to concentrate civilians in an area to deny guerrillas their base of support. They were not for extermination, or slave labor. Their closest analogue would probably be protection villages or whatever the Americans called them in Vietnam. The term " concentration camp" is incredibly loaded, and it should be understood that it encompasses a wide variety of different things.
TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR, what the British did in South Africa was utterly unacceptable, as was what the Americans did in Vietnam and the Phillipines. However, acting as if they were precursors to atrocities later in the century is false, especially as Alexander III had already established the labor camp system.
@HIMDogson, I wasn't commenting on anything you said, I was just pointing out you CLEARY crossed a line in what we aren't allowed to discuss on these forums.
@HIMDogson, I wasn't commenting on anything you said, I was just pointing out you CLEARY crossed a line in what we aren't allowed to discuss on these forums.
@HIMDogson
I did not equate them. I said 'inspired', which IIRC is precisely what was stated in Nuremberg. "Lies written in ink cannot disguise facts written in blood." When the results and numbers speak, everything else becomes an excuse.
I forgot which book I read this in exactly:
"South Korea has an easy way to make sure that capital does not flow out of their country. They have the death penalty."
Some degree of protectionism is essential until an economy reaches maturity, at which point they can compete on an equal playing field.
My understanding of economics is limited so I don't have any more detailed answer than that. This is also why I'm most avoiding discussion of economics in this AAR.
"The India-China intercourse began from the era of the Eastern Han Dynasty. Both interacted with each other peacefully and conducted scholarly and ideological exchanges. Both loved and admired each other; never had there been a slight clash."
- Sun Yat-Sen
As Chinese preparations for war accelerates, Chiang Kai-shek replaces the Guangxi General Chen Jitang -- who excelled at keeping the troops well-organized in peacetime -- with General Chen Cheng. The decision was not just a military move either. Chen Cheng was an excellent organizer and brave leader rapidly promoted since the Northern Expedition. But he was also one of Chiang's star pupils from the Whampoa Academy days, which made him reliable and loyal.
Furthermore, Chen Cheng was a close ally of Chiang Ching-kuo, and the brains behind one of their latest civil reforms. The 375 Rent Reduction Initiative capped rent paid by tenant farmers to landlords at 37.5% of the harvest (with Ching-kuo's socialist fervor laying down brutal punishments for those who ran afoul of this law). The decree stopped much of the extortion-like landlord behavior that has been causing unrest in the countryside and forcing impoverished farmers into banditry.
Chiang Kai-shek knew that if China declared war on the Entente and threw off the imperialistic yoke of extraterritoriality, it must immediately enact economic reforms (particularly in taxation). It was the only way for the KMT government to actually achieve the financial well-being to last a long and protracted global conflict. Otherwise, China would end up the same way as in his other world -- with the yuan worth less than toilet paper in ten years because the government's only method of balancing the budget was to keep printing money.
...And for that, Ching-kuo would benefit from having reliable allies within the army.
In the meantime, Ching-kuo was successfully ramping up one of his other reforms. What had been the 'Gannan New Deal' in an alternate world was turning into the 'China New Deal' in this timeline. After proving its success its the improverished Jiangxi prefecture, Ching-kuo began to push it into the rest of China's vast expanse:
(Custom event!)
To launch his rural campaign across China and enforce its initiatives upon factory owners and landlords alike (plus the local administrators in their pockets), Chiang Ching-kuo began a massive expansion of his paramilitary Sanmin Zhuyi Youth Corps, which soon had everything including its own cadet school. They were organized on a military basis and even carried older armaments provided by the army (through Chen Cheng).
Within the Kuomintang, the partnership between Chiang Ching-kuo and Chen Cheng was already starting to be called the 'New CC Clique', especially as the old 'CC Clique' (led by Chen Guofu and Chen Lifu) has sharply declined in recent years from the anti-corruption drives.
Chiang Kai-shek couldn't help but be a little proud. Like father, like son. Ching-kuo was paving the road to his own political ascent in the same way the older Chiang did.
-----
December 5th: China negotiates an expansion of trade with all of the oil exporters it has business relationships with. Preparations for war are hastening and one of the critical resources that China does not produce... is oil.
December 9th: Wehrmacht Captain Theodor von Hippel forms the Brandenburgers Battalion -- an elite special forces unit organized along linguistical abilities. All versed in foreign languages, the unit was trained to infiltrate, capture, and sabotage key positions behind enemy lines. The Chinese military attache in Berlin didn't know all the details, but even the rumors alone were... interesting.
December 17th: After 42 days of bitter fighting, the Russians -- having broke through the Finnish defense line at Kajaani a week ago -- sent their motorized columns in a straight dash for the Gulf of Bothnia. They captured Oulu on December 16th, effectively cutting Finland in half and forcing the Finns to surrender to Soviet demands. The lands Russia took seemed little -- Karelian Isthmus, north bank of Lake Ladoga, and the Salla strip -- but it included Finland's second largest city (Viipuri) and much of its industrialized territory.
On the same day, French agents operating in China managed to set fire to Fudan University in Shanghai, destroying valuable naval logistical research that the staff had been entrusted with. Before Dai Li's BIS/Juntong agents could apprehend them, they crossed over to the International Concessions and sought protection under its British and French garrison.
(Ugh, right where it hurts China the most: tech)
December 28th: The Soviet Union and Japan signed an accord which renewed the delegation of fishing rights in adjacent territorial waters, further improving their mutual relationship. Chiang eyed these developments with wary eyes, as a budding Russian-Japanese partnership did not bode well for China in the Far East.
January 2nd, 1940: The Wehrmacht establishes yet another elite regiment: Großdeutschland (Greater Germany). If Chiang remembered right, in a few years' time this unit's name will be instilling fear into Germany's enemies.
January 2nd again: For the abrupt change in world balance caused by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, TIME Magazine names Stalin as their Man of the (1939) Year, with a deeply disturbing image to boot.
-----
End of year industrial report.
(The original result of factories built in 1939 was a whooping 41 factories (21.7% effective IC increase), despite the military modernization. I finally had enough and did a more thorough investigation. The reason seems to be that policy slider effects affect IC growth in Darkest Hour v1.04 [I remember this wasn't the case for v1.03], which combined with high Hawk Lobby and Free Market policies allows China to construct new factories in just 244 days. As such, I finally decided to retconn China's industrial rise to as if China received a -10% IC geardown after the war with Japan. The result comes down to 30 less factories built, which was removed from the Jan-1940 save file and played from there. This reduces the annual industrial growth for China to 15.5%, still unsustainably high but more reasonable.)
1936) Base IC 114 -> 132, IC Efficiency 113% -> 103%
(114 + 132)/2 * 10% = 12.3 (IC lost from -10%) x 147.5% (IC construction speed) / 5 (IC cost) = 3.63
1937) Base IC 132 -> 158, IC Efficiency 114% -> 94% (agriculture research finishing middle of year)
(132 + 158)/2 * 10% = 14.5 + 3.63*114% (effective IC lost from previous year) = 18.64 x 147.5% / 5 = 5.50
1938) Base IC 158 -> 188, IC Efficiency 115% -> 95%
(158 + 188)/2 * 10% = 17.3 + (3.63+5.50)*115% = 27.80 x 147.5% / 5 = 8.20
1939) Base IC 188 -> 229, IC Efficiency 115% -> 95%
(188 + 229)/2 * 10% = 20.85 + (3.63+5.50+8.20)*115% = 40.78 x 147.5% / 5 = 12.03
3.63+5.50+8.20+12.03 = 29.36 > 30IC
Extra IC-days gained in 1935 will be countered by extra resource expenditures over years.
As the year 1940 begins, the Kuomintang establishes the Chung-Shan Institute of Science and Technology to serve as an official military R&D program. Returning researchers fleeing the war in Europe also brought Beijing University to a higher degree of excellence.
(Same rule as before: teams normally available 5 years post-unification)
Meanwhile, Chiang Kai-shek was still celebrating the (Christian) New Year with his family when Dai Li -- Director of the Bureau of Investigation and Statistics (Juntong) -- called in to request both his and his son Ching-kuo's presence at the Nanjing airport.
"A most prestigious guest for China has arrived," Dai simply remarked.
The two Chiangs arrived just in time as the plane from Shigatse landed. The doors opened to reveal two BIS agents, then the KMT generals Du Yuming and Li Mi, both of whom should have been at the Tibetan-Raj border. Only at last did an Indian figure emerge to descend the steps.
His image looked a bit familiar to Chiang. Though it was clear that two of them had never met.
"Headmaster," General Du Yuming began. "Allow me to introduce to you: Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose, leader of the All India Forward Bloc."
"Welcome to China," Chiang grinned as he offered his hand.
"Our agents found him under British house arrest in India," Dai Li explained. "His supporters helped him escape and we smuggled him across the Tibetan border."
"Please don't talk as if I were a crate of contraband," Bose smiled as he took Chiang's hand firmly. "I appreciate your country's help, Your Excellency. And it is an honor to meet the leader who has brought independence, sovereignty, and strength to the Chinese nation."
"The honor is mine, Mr. Bose," Chiang replied with Bose's honorific -- Respected Leader in Hindustani. "Our sovereignty is yet reclaimed. The British and French continue to dominate our major trading cities, meddle in our internal affairs, and divide our border regions as their economic influence zones. Only when all of Asia is free from the grasp of Imperialism will any of us attain true sovereignty."
"Then, I have come to the right friends of India," Bose nodded in agreement.
...
"Your Excellency," Bose began as he sat in a chair next to Chiang's in the Nanjing Presidential Palace. "The border tensions between China and the British are clear for all to see. Furthermore, China has been a close ally and long-time benefactor of Germany, Britain's chief nemesis in the west. As the fires of war grow, hostilities between China and Britain may be inevitable. And in that, I can offer China a legitimate cause -- to not only weaken the enemy, but help bring peace and stability to the future of Asia."
"Help me establish a Free Indian government," He requested. "An administration to rival Britain's colonial farce. A radio department to spread our word. Plus a military force to spearhead our liberation. We will take the fight to our joint enemy. And through it, China will have the support of the Indian people."
Chiang Kai-shek simply took his teacup and smiled.
"Mr. Bose, do you know what Dr Sun Yat-Sen, the Father of the Chinese Republic, once said about the unity of Asia?"
The question was rhetorical. Bose merely shook his head as Chiang continued.
"What problem does Pan-Asianism attempt to solve? He once asked... The problem is how to terminate the sufferings of the Asiatic peoples and how to resist the aggression of the powerful European countries. In a word, Pan-Asianism represents the cause of the oppressed Asiatic peoples."
"We must help each other," Bose nodded. "For if we do not, then no one else will."
"In general terms, I sympathize and agree," Chiang explained. "However, the reality is more complicated. China is not ready to open hostilities against the British, and to openly provide military support to the Indian independence movement is virtually a declaration of war for China's long southern border."
"Openly," Bose noted the keyword.
Chiang nodded.
"We can offer you the resources of the Bureau of Investigations and Statistics to reach out to Indians across Asia. We will give you the equipment and training needed to set up radio stations, even establish a training camp in the Himalayas to arm your recruits. But everything must be done discreetly. China cannot openly support Indian independence, nor can we allow the declaration of a provisional government for India within our borders -- at least not yet."
"But you will respect the sovereignty of the Indian people when the time comes?" Bose asked, his piercing gaze gauging Chiang's every twitch.
"Mr. Bose," Chiang smiled wryly. "China is the largest and most ancient of Asiatic countries, but it is not for us boastfully to talk of her right to a position of 'leadership' among those countries.* We've learned -- in the most painful manner -- exactly what happened when Japan tried to 'lead' us. We will not make the same mistake and force the Indians to resent us."
(*Original quote from Chiang, albeit used in different context.)
Under Chiang's direct orders, Bose would be provided with all the materiels and intelligence outreach he needed. The Azad Hind Radio was soon set up in Kunming and Shanghai, broadcasting directly into India as well as across all of Asia. Recruits began to trickle into China, some illegally crossing the borders while others arriving by ship. They were then screened by Bose's supporters, and those deemed trustworthy were sent into the Himalayan foothills where they were secretly equipped with Chinese-made German weapons.
"Friends, soldiers, let your war cry be only one! 'Dilli Chalo!' (On to Delhi) I do not know how many of us would personally survive; but I know, victory is ours. So stand up and take your arms. In India the revolutionaries have already prepared a path for you and this will lead us to Delhi!"
- Subhas Chandra Bose, addressing recruits of the Indian National Army
(Custom event! The historical INA was much larger; but they also relied heavily on recruiting from Indian PoWs, which China has 0.)
Inspired by the German Brandenburgers, the Chinese military (and its German advisors) also began training the first Indian Special Forces unit -- the "Bahadur Group".
More controversial was the fact that Bose, who completely ignored all ethnic, religious, and gender divisions in his bid for Indian independence, formed the all-women combat regiment (more like a light battalion) 'Rani of Jhansi' under Captain Lakshmi Sehgal. Even left-leaning KMT officers raised their eyebrows at that. Sure, the NRA has female auxiliary units, but a front-line infantry regiment? Crazy.
Within the month, the British would filed a protest, calling Bose a 'terrorist' who should be apprehended and repatriated at once. China replies that Bose has broken no Chinese laws and is merely exercising the 'Freedom of Speech' that the west claims to embrace.
-----
January 9th, 1939: The Bolshevik Red Army seems to have recovered from Stalin's Great Purge. Just twenty days after the Winter War, the Soviet Union begins augmenting their forces all along the Chinese border and aggressively patrolling the disputed territories. The Chinese border garrisons respond in kind. Multiple skirmishes broke out all along the front, with the heaviest fighting at Zhenbao Island in northeast Manchuria. There, the NRA demonstrated the worth of Chinese-made Pak-36s by destroying several BT-5 tanks when they crossed the frozen river and attempted to storm the island.
(Custom event! Adapted from the historic PRC vs T-62s. Returns the 10% peacetime IC geardown.)
All along the Beijing-Nanjing and Beijing-Changchun railways, trainloads of men, artillery, and other equipment could be seen being sent north. Chiang Kai-shek had ordered the Sino-Soviet border to be brought up to 72 divisions. He could only hope that the forceful presence would convince Stalin that China was no Finland. If the USSR wants a war, it had best be prepared to pay in millions of men.
Not that Stalin cared about lives. But being bogged down in Asia would certainly run against his Europe-focused strategy.
In the meantime, he made sure that Falkenhausen would send a detailed report to Germany on the pressure China now faced in the north.
-----
January 11th: One bad news follows another, as British agents -- in collusion with Tibetan dissidents -- successfully sabotaged the expansion of the Chinese ROCAF airstrip in Shigatse.
January 24th: A German plane carrying the plans for Fall Gelb (the attack on Belgium and Netherlands) crash landed in Belgium. The Belgians and Dutch recovered enough to discern an imminent German invasion. The Germans, however, called off the attack, and the Fuhrer requested a new operation plan be created. He would find it... in the proposal of General Erich von Manstein.
January 30th: German SS Sonderkommandos arrested two British SIS agents (and one Dutch intelligence officer) attempting to make contact with Anti-Nazi resistance elements in the Third Reich. Hitler claimed that this was irrefutable proof that the Dutch were blatantly violating their neutrality.
February 9th: US President Roosevelt dispatched Under Secretary of State Sumner Welles to Europe to determine determine the possibility of negotiating a just and lasting peace. The results were... clearly not positive.
February 25th: The Austrialians, no doubt prodded by their British overlords, launch a media campaign on how China is now harboring "one of the most dangerous men to peace in Asia."
(Third intel failure in under 70 days. Chiang sends Dai Li a reprimand.)
Notes:
1. Chen Cheng would eventually come up with the '375 Initiative' in Taiwan, and the law was accredited with halting the spread of Communism into the island. I couldn't figure out how to turn it into a meaningful event by DH mechanics so, no event.
2. The KMT had two major paramilitary organizations during the republican period -- the earlier, fascist-leaning Blue Shirts Society that formed much of Dai Li's BIS/Juntong, and the later, socialist-leaning Sanmin Zhuyi Youth Corps whose men Ching-kuo would tap for his own secret police in Taiwan. Power seems to work the same way no matter what ideology you follow <_<
3. I've seriously asked myself the question: would China interfere in Indian affairs (puppet them)? Well, if the PRC actually made North Korea a puppet, we might not have today's problems (although this is a dangerous path to tread). It doesn't quite seem to fit modern China's modus operandi. Furthermore, Chiang Kai-shek has lots of sins, but Imperialism is not one of them; his discussions with USA on the future of postwar Asia well documents his almost-allergic reactions towards expansion outside China. Even Barbara Tuchman, a Pro-Stilwell journalist hostile towards Chiang, wrote about Chiang Kai-shek's instantaneous "Under No Circumstances!" outburst when the Americans offered him control of French Indochine.
Question to the Readers:
Given that the China Lobby played a notable role in molding US opinions in the lead-up to World War II, what do you think would have happened in the US if China -- the country FDR openly supported (and already aided) -- ended up turning against the Allies? Will this increase US Interventionism or decrease it as they become more cynical about the British cause in the war? The US was also Pro-Indian Independence and had always been against any involvement to uphold the European Empires (President Washington specifically warned against it). Of course, being predominantly European-descent, the US will still prioritize European geopolitics.
Frankly, the US wouldn't be entering the war under these specific circumstances...
Sure, they'll continue supplying Britain for as long as possible, but they wouldn't join without official provocation, like the kind Japan pulled.
I would beware being too openly aggressive, though, otherwise American foreign policy towards China might become hardline and you can forget about having American sympathies.
Notes:
1. Chen Cheng would eventually come up with the '375 Initiative' in Taiwan, and the law was accredited with halting the spread of Communism into the island. I couldn't figure out how to turn it into a meaningful event by DH mechanics so, no event.
2. The KMT had two major paramilitary organizations during the republican period -- the earlier, fascist-leaning Blue Shirts Society that formed much of Dai Li's BIS/Juntong, and the later, socialist-leaning Sanmin Zhuyi Youth Corps whose men Ching-kuo would tap for his own secret police in Taiwan. Power seems to work the same way no matter what ideology you follow <_<
3. I'm not sure if calling Bose 'Netaji' now is accurate since the name's history is, complicated. But I couldn't figure how how else Chiang would address Bose.
4. I've seriously asked myself the question: would China interfere in Indian affairs (puppet them)? Well, if the PRC actually made North Korea a puppet, we might not have today's problems (although this is a dangerous path to tread). It doesn't quite seem to fit modern China's modus operandi. Besides, Chiang Kai-shek has lots of sins, but Imperialism is not one of them; his discussions with USA on the future of postwar Asia well documents his almost-allergic reactions towards expansion outside China.
Question to the Readers:
Given that the China Lobby played a notable role in molding US opinions in the lead-up to World War II, what do you think would have happened in the US if China -- the country FDR openly supported (and already aided) -- ended up turning against the Allies? Will this increase US Interventionism or decrease it as they become more cynical about the British cause in the war? The US was also Pro-Indian Independence and had always been against any involvement to uphold the European Empires (President Washington specifically warned against it). Of course, being predominantly European-descent, the US will still prioritize European geopolitics.
On the US, I'd argue it depends on what information flows where and some small things:
Does Japan need oil for their ships and do the US still bring about an embargo? Is Japan still attacking Indonesia etc?
With less Imperialism in the "Orient", are the jingoistic/interventionist parts of the US looking to Europe and do they uncover evidence of the Holocaust/Gulags/both.
Does the US think/try to persuade China that joining the Allies will lead to renegotiations of the Unequal Treaties and are spurned by China on this? This is a more pressing concern based off the above as FDR will likely find it hard to defend a China that is actively helping a power which seeks to commit genocide.
The US arguably needed the War to jumpstart their economy into overdrive, and thus does the US based off knowledge of the Holocaust attack the Nazis? Do they do this before China officially joins the Axis?
Does the US know about the Gulags and Ukraine? Do they decide to wage an independent crusade against Communism from Siberia West? (This is getting to be more ASB but could happen if set up slowly over time.)
Finally, does China officially join the Axis or do they do a Finland and fight the Commies/Imperialists without officially signing on with Hitler.
I'd argue the US would pressure Britain to fold in India and wider Asia for independence/treaty revisions and after trying to do that either embargo if failing or supply and support and maybe join the war against Nazism whilst trying to ignore Axis China,India etc.
One thing I'm a bit curious about with this, does Chiang gain no sympathy/respect for the British/Allies based off Burma and their support during the Second Sino-Japanese war or did he historically disregard them?
It just seems like Icon mentioned that you're just "using" Chiang as the POV character ISOTed into himself and yet he seems to ignore the help/support of the Allies during the 2nd War against the Japanese or did he see himself as having done that as a product of his previous weakness? I do feel like Chiang seems a bit too pro-German even knowing from his ISOT what Hitler did to the Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe when Chiang himself expressed some support for Zionism.
I would also have to say that Chiang claiming that allowing Bose to raise an army in broad daylight in China goes well beyond freedom of speech and for them to have such equipment means the British would know exactly what he's doing.
With Japan emascuated the USA won't be getting involved in ww2 anytime soon also if Wallace is VP in '40 like otl you'll have nothing to fear as long as you continue to have people like Chiang Ching-Kuo in government. I'm sure the two would get along fine with their similar ideologies and what not.
@alxeu@AvatarOfKhaine@germandjinn
Thanks for the feedback. I should quickly note I'm not discussing if America will join the war (the Peace Lobby in America is very powerful at this time, so powerful only Arsenal of Democracy ever managed to accurately portray it). What I mean is the Interventionism vs Isolationism slider -- which way would the USA tick when China and Britain goes to war?
One thing I'm a bit curious about with this, does Chiang gain no sympathy/respect for the British/Allies based off Burma and their support during the Second Sino-Japanese war or did he historically disregard them?
It just seems like Icon mentioned that you're just "using" Chiang as the POV character ISOTed into himself and yet he seems to ignore the help/support of the Allies during the 2nd War against the Japanese or did he see himself as having done that as a product of his previous weakness? I do feel like Chiang seems a bit too pro-German even knowing from his ISOT what Hitler did to the Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe when Chiang himself expressed some support for Zionism.
I would also have to say that Chiang claiming that allowing Bose to raise an army in broad daylight in China goes well beyond freedom of speech and for them to have such equipment means the British would know exactly what he's doing.
Actually, the Burma Campaign actually made Chiang despise the British more.
This is because during the first phase of the campaign the British retreated without telling the Chinese (they blame communication breakdown but we'll never know if that's just an excuse), which allowed the IJA to outflank the Chinese Expeditionary Army and cut its rear. Chiang was pressured by the US to send his BEST divisions into Burma only to lose much of them (including much of the aforementioned 200th Division) due to that. The KMT officer corps called the British 'treacherous' and 'using us as their sacrificial lamb' after that and would never trust them again for the remainder of the war.
Russia and America are the only ones who really helped China (the USAF simply borrowed British airfields). Chiang never made any doubt of his antagonism and distrust towards Britain and France even in our timeline (including declaring support for Indian independence during the middle of the war which really made Churchill angry).
China has a generally positive view of Jews but I have never encountered any evidence that Chiang supported Zionism, especially considering his many high-ranking Muslim commanders (giving the Holy City of Jerusalem away? Blasphemy.) As far as why Chiang is pro-German, I've already covered in previous chapters -- there is a long history of pro-German feelings in the KMT.
Oh I'm sure the British intelligence knows. But... what's the American word: "plausible deniability". Knowing and proving are different things. And the Himalayan foothills are very isolated.
Lastly... do you really think Chiang cares about the crimes in Europe? (laughs). Given the body account he himself was responsible for? And those were Chinese people, not "western imperialists"
(based on your last post... you've never read anything about China during WW2 have you? The distrust and lack of cooperation in the China-India-Burma theater is famous, so much the American COs considered it a 'career graveyard')
Personally I'd say 1 tick towards isolation due to Americans already supporting China and most not wanting to get involved in another war. Why aid Britain in a fight against your friend?
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