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CO Word of the Week #13

Last week we touched upon the economy in Cities: Skylines II, how it works now, and how it might be subject to change based on your feedback. This time around we’ll answer some of your questions about the citizens, education, and public transport.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

How do citizens choose which products to buy?
When a citizen goes shopping for their household, the game picks the type of goods through a weighted random check. Products that citizens should need more of or more often have a heavier weight and are roughly based on real-world consumption statistics. Additionally, each age group has certain products they “prefer” which affects the weighted check. As an example, citizens are more likely to purchase food over media, and a household of seniors is even less interested in media than the other age groups. Once the products have been purchased, they’re added to the household’s resources and eventually consumed.

How did you balance the education system?
The citizen Education system closely follows the same system we had in the original Cities: Skylines. When a citizen is educated, they will get a job with a better salary which gives them more opportunities to live in different places. While we have made some improvements to it to encourage more High School students, the Education system still needs some balancing, as we feel it’s currently not working as well as it could. For example, the number of Elementary Schools needed in the city is quite huge because the percentage of the population that goes to Elementary School is big.

The children don't have a choice between studying and working so that also raises the number of students compared to other education levels, where a portion of the eligible students will choose to work instead. The Elementary School’s student capacity has been balanced around how many students the building could reasonably hold, and while it might improve the situation, a small school building with 1000 students is quite unrealistic. Currently, we are checking the factors that need to be considered to balance this issue. This includes, for example, how long it takes to graduate from different types of schools. Additionally, each school type has its own Graduation check curve that determines the probability of graduating. Elementary School has the highest probability and University has the lowest probability.

Is there a system to “unbunch” public transportation vehicles?
Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line. We have received reports of public transportation vehicles getting stuck for too long at a stop and we are investigating what are the reasons behind this.

Feel free to send more questions our way and we’ll be answering them in future Words of the Week!

Sincerely,
Mariina
 
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Then why do we have people of “wretched” wealth living next to higher wealth levels? High land value should have a more educated/higher wealth population and vice versa.
Check real life. People of extraordinary income are able to buy more and more stuff that they want, so they can become heavily indebted and their finances will quickly become "wretched". In the game, people with more education/income will definitely tend on average to move into high land value areas (or more precisely, everybody will move to areas where the rent of the apartment matches what they want to pay compared to how much space it provides for their family).
 
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Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?
You have noticed that sometimes citizens don’t behave the way you might expect. Sometimes citizens vanish or they might stay at home for a day. So let’s talk about when that can happen and why. A citizen can despawn in some circumstances: for example, when there is a dead-lock with other agents, such as an overly long queue of cars, or there is no reasonable path to their destination. There is still the rule that a citizen cannot teleport to their destination. If they despawn, they teleport to their previous destination so they can’t just skip bad traffic by teleporting. Some of you have also noticed that when the city grows bigger there is a probability for whether or not an agent will travel to work or school. This is intended, and citizens become a bit more passive to reduce traffic, but there is no limit to the number of moving agents. This choice was made to keep traffic manageable because reducing private car ownership didn't help as city centers were filled with pedestrians. Performance gain from the reduced pathfind load was just an extra benefit.

Could you talk about how citizens are simulated in the game?

Thanks for the update. I was wondering about car use and walking distance. By this I mean that Europeans usually have cities with large pedestrian areas in the center of town and local shops near their houses further from the center of town. This limits the use of cars and many people just walk or cycle to a shop nearby for their daily things, or go to the center of town by public transport.

It seems that using a car is preferred in Cities, or is that a matter of city planning and design? Like in real life, if cims prefer to walk a bit instead of using a car, traffic should be more manageable. I haven't seen this mechanic in the game yet.
 
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Since the 1.0.19f1 update my game has been crashing regularly.
I have had some issue with loaded saves only being playable on pause (or not loading at all). I don't know what causes it, but when the simulation runs at cheetah it maxes my 3070 ti (which gets good benchmark tests) to 100% usage and then the game crashes. I'm not quite sure what I did in game because I don't use developer mode. ‍♂️♂️♂️
 
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Hello, any word about the perceived "lacking challenge" or "nothing matters" from a big part of the community and content creators?


Are there any plans to make a more challenging mode with impactful consequences in the future?
I probably watched a handful of those videos and i am seriously wondering what else you are expecting them to adress here besides what they already did.

i just checked the WotW from this year and the first 4 were detailing the road map for 2024 how and when you can expect patches and bug fixes and improvements plus where they are at with modding support and in the last 3 blogs they adressed cargo flow, then the economy and land value, now cim choices, pathfinding, education.

While keeping in mind that the next patch is scheduled for end of march, i seriously wonder what, in your opinion, CO should have said or adressed here that would instantly impact the way you can enjoy the game until the next patch actually is deployed.

And whose or which issues specifically would you have them adressed here? Biffas or CPP´s? Dianas or Imperaturs?

A couple of weeks ago, Mariina asked to send questions to them for these words of the week to answer.

Did any of those content creators submit questions to them here that werent adressed?

Should they adress feedback at all given in a video here?
 
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Can't one simply introduce a city or district ordinance to address the problem with capacity at primary schools where something like home schooling is promoted by an ordinance? So that children can also be taught from home if there is not enough capacity, perhaps with the disadvantage that school training then takes a few months longer than at a regular school.
 
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I probably watched a handful of those videos and i am seriously wondering what else you are expecting them to adress here besides what they already did.

i just checked the WotW from this year and the first 4 were detailing the road map for 2024 how and when you can expect patches and bug fixes and improvements plus where they are at with modding support and in the last 3 blogs they adressed cargo flow, then the economy and land value, now cim choices, pathfinding, education.

While keeping in mind that the next patch is scheduled for end of march, i seriously wonder what, in your opinion, CO should have said or adressed here that would instantly impact the way you can enjoy the game until the next patch actually is deployed.

And whose or which issues specifically would you have them adressed here? Biffas or CPP´s? Dianas or Imperaturs?

A couple of weeks ago, Mariina asked to send questions to them for these words of the week to answer.

Did any of those content creators submit questions to them here that werent adressed?

Should they adress feedback at all given in a video here?
Hi, I think that waiting for a patch until end of march doesn't make sense. The current state of the game is basically that of an early access game. By releasing patches regularly at least they could get immidiate feedback.

With regular patches they would also get immidiate feedback from people with different hardware.
 
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the simulation is completely faked with tons of failsafes to prevent anything from actually happening if you're not doing well. If there is somehow a traffic jam, then citizens will just start despawning instead of adding to the traffic jam, which will eventually just clear up the jam and solve your issue.

And let me get this straight, you noticed while developing that too many agents was making the game slow down, so instead of like fixing it, you just tried to take their cars away? So they wouldn't try to pathfinder and add to the simulation load? But then that didn't work so you just made them like sit at home and do nothing?? I honestly question who is making these terrible choices. None of it makes any sense in a SIMULATION game!
Nothing is faked, but the game is balanced to be easy enough to be played in a chill fashion for everyone. Still about half the people complained about not being able to make their city profitable. Traffic is actually only despawned when they are in an eternal waiting cycle. To my understanding, this is unlike in CS1 where they are despawned whenever traffic gets too heavy. It should be quite easy for people to make a hard mode for the game because now everything is actually simulated instead most of it being faked as in CS1 and most other similar games.

I think this game has the most actually simulated agents ever in a game, at least given how sophisticated they are. People are moving around somewhat less in a big city mostly not because of performance, but because the time scale means the city doesn't scale as in real life so a realistic number would just gridlock every city. But if you for example compare to CS1, it had a hard limit on how many agents can be on the move, while this game has none, and here everybody is actually simulated whatever the city size. If you have ideas on how to make a "realistic" city sim game with a time scale that is not boring but also doesn't have this problem, I'm all ears.
 
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It will show some good will, for once. And that they know they screwed up and admit to it.
They've already apologized. The problem is they don't want to spend any of our hard earned revenue to hire additional engineers to fix the problems more quickly than a normal QC patching process will allow.

The deeper issue, however, IMO, is that they need a game optimized for consoles in addition to PCs. I'd love to know how much revenue comes from console sales. If they give PCs the game they deserve, it will leave consoles and older PCs in the dust. We got that version of CS1 through free-for-all modding on Steam. But there were a different set of problems on Steam ... it's the Wild West out there. So we're waiting for a streamlined moderated modding community.


But IMO they really need to release two versions of the game designed and optimized for different types of machines.
 
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I have had some issue with loaded saves only being playable on pause (or not loading at all). I don't know what causes it, but when the simulation runs at cheetah it maxes my 3070 ti (which gets good benchmark tests) to 100% usage and then the game crashes. I'm not quite sure what I did in game because I don't use developer mode. ‍♂️♂️♂️
Yes, that's exactly my problem, that my save games no longer work, some are even grayed out and you can no longer select or load them. I could start a new city, but somehow I don't feel like starting a new city now that might not work again in a few weeks due to a new update or where the save games are broken.
 
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they apologized last week for the state the economic simulation was in during launch and now. didnt seem to make much of a difference.
Based on their pattern of behaviour they have been exhibiting since release, to me it read more as a “sorry if u are offended” apology than a genuine humble apology to the community. Neither did they answer questions wrt to how did CO claims in their lead up to launch video to understanding how simulation works and that expectations were too high to suddenly everything is not. To me, something is simply not adding up.
 
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My question is, will this information be put together into a package in the game where the user can read it while, or before playing the game? or possibly include some of this information in a tooltip hint window? Eg, the rent is high pop up, when you hover over it, it could give you a little more info about why these people are complaining and what you could do to help it. "build a different density zone" just doesn't seem to offer much insight.

these things are small QOL issues though and i feel the bigger issue is that this game needs something unique to really make people want to move from CS1 over to this game. to make them say "well now CS2 has this new system I've stopped playing CS1". Something like a multi city trading system, similar to cities XL had. a new political mechanic like Tropico. economic disasters or outside factors that could effect the economy - "the country is now at war, you'll need to up weapon productions to avoid invasion and game over"
Any one of these might just give people more reason to pick it up. Mods and DLC will add alot in time of course, but at the moment, there isn't really anything I can do in CS2 thats fundametally different to CS1. and CS1 is already fleshed out with tons of creativity available to me - the real long time draw of the game for me.

For people who have bought CS1, all its DLC, and those that play on PC and only ever played it with 100 mods minimum, which i would guess includes a good chunk of the community, that time and investment just isnt worth giving up for CS2 yet. That seems to me the most urgent problem for this game.
 
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  • It's been a couple of weeks since the last patch. You could give some insights what has been worked on. We get that you don't have a weekly update on bug fixes. But you must have made a bunch of progress since the last patch.
In several word of the week CO explained extensively why there won't be weekly patches. Read them before complaining.
 
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Yes, that's exactly my problem, that my save games no longer work, some are even grayed out and you can no longer select or load them. I could start a new city, but somehow I don't feel like starting a new city now that might not work again in a few weeks due to a new update or where the save games are broken.
I have my game set to autosave every ten minutes up to 50 saves--so at least I was able to track back through time and find a playable save. It took a couple hours.

And I have the same feeling about starting over--but CS1 is not very satisfying now having played CS2.
 
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Thank you for the update. I like the game and have high hopes for it. Will bugs still be fixed while working on DLC's? One big bug I don't like is the crime with no arrests. I want to have a prison but there is no use for having one.
 
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Public transportation vehicles can get “bunched up” due to traffic or most often when a new line is created and the vehicles spawn. We have a system that spreads out the vehicles on a singular line by extending stopping times when necessary. This helps the vehicles to move at regular intervals, so your citizens can get where they need to go and you don’t have all buses arriving in one long line, but it may take a little while for vehicles to spread out properly on a brand new line.
Could you make a system that doesn't clog the whole street and doesn't affect other lines that run on the same route? It's especially crucial with trams since busses at least can overtake, while trams cannot. Maybe they should be dispatched with an interval per line and/or sent to opposite directions of the line?
 
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Nothing is faked, but the game is balanced to be easy enough to be played in a chill fashion for everyone. Still about half the people complained about not being able to make their city profitable. Traffic is actually only despawned when they are in an eternal waiting cycle. To my understanding, this is unlike in CS1 where they are despawned whenever traffic gets too heavy. It should be quite easy for people to make a hard mode for the game because now everything is actually simulated instead most of it being faked as in CS1 and most other similar games.

I think this game has the most actually simulated agents ever in a game, at least given how sophisticated they are. People are moving around somewhat less in a big city mostly not because of performance, but because the time scale means the city doesn't scale as in real life so a realistic number would just gridlock every city. But if you for example compare to CS1, it had a hard limit on how many agents can be on the move, while this game has none, and here everybody is actually simulated whatever the city size. If you have ideas on how to make a "realistic" city sim game with a time scale that is not boring but also doesn't have this problem, I'm all ears.

It is fake though. If everything can run on their so called "failsafes" so much so that you cannot fail - in any way shape or form (because people have tried their best), then interaction from you is unnecessary and the simulation may as well just be fake. There's no point even defending this, it's downright silly.
That was unlike CS1. There were very few failsafes, in fact, if something failed in your city you had a complete wave of failures which could in severe cases cause a loss.
Their failsafes in CS1 was: Traffic Despawn & Bank Loans.
In CS2 everything has a fail safe.. Literally everything and it makes it not fun. It's that simple.

No, traffic despawn the minute that too much traffic is detected and unlike CS1 it's ANY vehicle that can despawn which tends to end up being public transport that then deposits a ton of people on the road causing.. more traffic.

And come on, let's be honest here.. It wouldn't necessarily gridlock a city.. It's all about performance.. The game is barely functional as is, to even remotely think that Cims not being simulated isn't a matter of performance----
There's nothing realistic about this city sim. If there were, you could in fact, gridlock your city with Cims.

Fact is that this game has a hard limit of how many agents can be on the move, even though it was sold as having no limits.
 
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