Can we talk about hooks and how I find them annoying and don't really care about aquiring them?

[IanReSc]

So, pretty much what it says in the title.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of scheming, murdering people or even backmailing them, but I find that the entire process is rather tiresome and more often than not I only use hooks in order to sell them back. That is hardly as intended. Rarely do I ever tell my Spymaster do to anything else, but to chose the standard task and rarely ever do I feel the need to pressure someone. By the time I have a hook on my liege, I have won a war against him anyway. Vassal contracts? Don't really care, especially since you seem to have to alter them every time either party involved dies.

Is there something I am missing, or are hooks basically just a big money scheme? Their use seems to be very case specific. In certain cases, yes, but in that cases, when you really need one, do you have one? Can you get one in time? No.

I like the idea of being a conniving Schemer, but is it actually a game mechanic that is fun? Unless you want to go on a murder spree, I think not. Then again, the murdering spree doesn't need hooks as you rarely need them to force people into a plot.

 

[Eltener]

So, pretty much what it says in the title.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of scheming, murdering people or even backmailing them, but I find that the entire process is rather tiresome and more often than not I only use hooks in order to sell them back. That is hardly as intended. Rarely do I ever tell my Spymaster do to anything else, but to chose the standard task and rarely ever do I feel the need to pressure someone. By the time I have a hook on my liege, I have won a war against him anyway. Vassal contracts? Don't really care, especially since you seem to have to alter them every time either party involved dies.

Is there something I am missing, or are hooks basically just a big money scheme? Their use seems to be very case specific. In certain cases, yes, but in that cases, when you really need one, do you have one? Can you get one in time? No.

I like the idea of being a conniving Schemer, but is it actually a game mechanic that is fun? Unless you want to go on a murder spree, I think not. Then again, the murdering spree doesn't need hooks as you rarely need them to force people into a plot.

They're useful if you focus intrigue and can fabricate them (thus allowing you to target who you have hooks on). Vassal contract changes do still confer benefits on you, forcing through a marriage can be useful, the money can be nice too ect.

Outside of the fabricate hook interaction it does indeed seem to be way too random to use effectively. Even if you try to use find secrets you'll often either find nothing or get a hook on someone irrelevant.

 

[PDX-Trinexx]

So, pretty much what it says in the title.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of scheming, murdering people or even backmailing them, but I find that the entire process is rather tiresome and more often than not I only use hooks in order to sell them back. That is hardly as intended. Rarely do I ever tell my Spymaster do to anything else, but to chose the standard task and rarely ever do I feel the need to pressure someone. By the time I have a hook on my liege, I have won a war against him anyway. Vassal contracts? Don't really care, especially since you seem to have to alter them every time either party involved dies.

Is there something I am missing, or are hooks basically just a big money scheme? Their use seems to be very case specific. In certain cases, yes, but in that cases, when you really need one, do you have one? Can you get one in time? No.

I like the idea of being a conniving Schemer, but is it actually a game mechanic that is fun? Unless you want to go on a murder spree, I think not. Then again, the murdering spree doesn't need hooks as you rarely need them to force people into a plot.

Interesting feedback, thanks for sharing it! Out of curiosity though, what would your expectations of the hook system be? That is, if you had total creative control, what would your hook system look like?

That goes for pretty much anyone in the thread; hit me up with your ideas.

 

[tonilopez12]

Interesting feedback, thanks for sharing it! Out of curiosity though, what would your expectations of the hook system be? That is, if you had total creative control, what would your hook system look like?

That goes for pretty much anyone in the thread; hit me up with your ideas.

Not OP here, but can I slide some ideas I've had about hooks recently?

Edit: I'll add some ideas since everyone is doing it anyway.

As many below have already said, I feel there aren't that many interesting things to do with hooks at the moment, which is a shame, because I really like the concept of getting someone to do something they wouldn't do otherwise. One thing I have always thought is that hooks don't nearly affect politics as much as they should. For example, why can't I get some vassalization acceptance from hooks? Something like +5 from a weak hook, +10 from a perpetual one and +20 from a strong one could break some ties and make me care more about getting some dirt on my neighbors. On the same note, I think that maybe we could use hooks on vassals so that they swear loyalty to our heir (so that they get +20 opinion of them upon succesion), or Empire-tier lieges so that they accept our claims of kingship... It doesn't need to be about these very concrete examples, the idea is that hooks don't feel that worthwhile right now because there aren't that many actions to use them on and those actions lack a bit of weight in my opinion.

Besides, I also think acquiring hooks should feel more engaging. Until now, we could only acquire hooks via blackmailing, events, house head-acy or The Truth is Relative perk. Hostages are a significant step on the right direction, because they give us a ton of agency on who we get hooks on (I can also think of the best friend hook being this way and feeling better). However, I think more active ways of getting hooks would improve how the system feels. Maybe offering to pay a huge building of another ruler could grant a hook? Maybe an option to exchange titles for hooks hidden in a Diplomacy perk? A Buy hook interaction that only Greedy or broke characters are likely to accept? The ability to join our co-vassals, liege or neighbour wars in exchange for hooks with some sort of perk or cultural tradition? Again, methods are up to game designers, but my main concern is that we don't have enough agency on who we get hooks on.

On this same topic, some of the best additions to the game have been simple changes that allow us to interact freely with others and affect the world around us, like contract assistance/ bargain fealty in Fate of Iberia or inviting people to activities in Tours and Tournaments. Hooks could be improved in very much the same fashion, in my opinion.

 

[Trunting]

Hooks could be modified by rank. Such as the Emperor or King visits his vassal while doing a tour and then the vassal promises the liege to aid him for example in the next war. Come the next war, the hook is called in.

So hooks could be related to a certain state of the game as described above.

 

[GiantSpaceHamster]

If I can chip in, I think the problem is not with the hook system itself, but with intrigue as a whole. Hooks make sense, being able to get others to do what they wouldn't want to do otherwise because you have dirt on them is definitely one of the most basic tools of a scheming character. It's just that intrigue is so barebones that there isn't anything you want to 'spend' hooks on. Most of the time the npcs you get hooks on are unlanded courtiers, anything you might want to do with them you don't need hooks for anyway. Like OP said, even if you get a hook on an important character, most of the time it's easier to just declare war on them and take everything from them that way. I guess it's like being in a shop and having money but the shelves are empty and anything that is there you don't want to buy anyway.

 

[fodazd]

On my first ruler, I usually dip into Stewardship just to convert hooks to money. It's a good source on income in the early game, but later on I agree that there aren't many useful ways to use hooks:
-> Changing Contracts is *theoretically* good, but in practice I don't want my vassal's obligations to be too high anyway, because the opinion penalty isn't worth the gold and especially not the levies.
-> Inviting people to court *is* very useful, but unless they have been at your court previously, there usually aren't a lot of opportunities to gain hooks on them. Unless they are house head hooks.
-> Stopping Vassal wars is also useful, but only until you get CA3. However: The fact that you even *need* hooks in order to protect your landed sons from the aggression of their fellow vassals is still stupid in my opinion.
-> If you are a vassal, hooks on your liege are actually very powerful. You can change your own contract, and use them for petitions. However: I usually don't stay a vassal for very long.
-> Using hooks for marriages is *theoretically* interesting, but in practice there are usually enough good candidates who would accept anyway.
-> Using hooks to demand religious conversion is also *theoretically* interesting, but why bother when refusing to convert is a crime that allows me to imprison people and revoke their titles?
-> Hooks usually also don't make much of a difference for getting agents in murder plots in my experience. Or rather I don't usually *need* hooks for this purpose.

...So in practice, I mostly worry about hooks when my vassals get them on me, because then they force themselves on the council or do other very annoying things.


Regarding ideas to make hooks more meaningful:
-> In CK2, favors on your council members were very important for passing laws. If CK3 had a more involved system for passing laws that required you to obtain the approval of a number of other characters, hooks would potentially be much more valuable. This would be a long-term thing of course.
-> If more scheme types (particularly befriend, romance, seduce and learn language) allowed "agents" in the sense of other characters who will help you with this, hooks could be more valuable for recruiting these agents.
-> If we could ask other characters to host particular activities (particularly feasts, hunts and tournaments), hooks could be used to make them accept.
-> If elective successions were more widely available (and not bugged?), then spending hooks on elections would maybe be more of a thing?

 

[The Shacks]

Hooks are usually handy if you want to ensure a vassal goes to prison like a good boy, or someone hands over their child so you can raise them and set up their marriage as you wish.... Beside that, yes usually its about making money or getting something nice from your liege.

 

[PDX-Trinexx]

Not OP here, but can I slide some ideas I've had about hooks recently?

Absolutely!

 

[tonilopez12]

Absolutely!

Thanks, I've edited my comment above, let me know if you have and want to share any impressions about it!

 

[IanReSc]

Interesting feedback, thanks for sharing it! Out of curiosity though, what would your expectations of the hook system be? That is, if you had total creative control, what would your hook system look like?

That goes for pretty much anyone in the thread; hit me up with your ideas.

Thanks for the reply.

I think the biggest issue is, as others have said, with intrigue itself. Intrigue is nice when you want to murder someone. Once I am at king level, I don't see any reason for it. War is much easier to do. Also, I think hooks are a nice idea, but they suffer from one issue. We already know way too much about every other character in the game, regardless of where they are. What secrets could there be left?

Right now, I think hooks operate on such a low level, personal relationship level, etc that IMHO you should not be able to use them for something powerful. Nobody would grant me a county just because I know that they like to cheat on their spouse. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind that I can't use them for something powerful. I would not change that. I think that is exactly the level on which they should operate.

However, as mentioned above we know everything about everyone in the entire world at all times. Why? Use intrigue to spy on people, realms and gather information about their troop sizes, alliances, traits. Just like in the Sims, make me interact with people through events, feasts and other gatherings and based on interactions make me reveal their traits. Or, if they don't want to: force them by using hooks.

Use hooks in order to force them to reveal something of note of either themselves or other contacts. Right now there is no need for spying, since we already know everything. Imagine how the map painting would slow down, if we didn't know about our enemies troop sizes at all times. If we had to gather the information in order to not rush into a war against a much stronger opponent. Use them on the council, provided we get Council mechanics at some point.

So, in essence, just come up with some "fog of war" type mechanic regarding characters and give me a reason to spy on people. Let me interact with people in order to find the best spouse rather than going through a list and sort by inheritable traits. This where hooks make sense and where they could shine, I think.

 

[y8r4G0xz3fFkXdGXyJ4V]

My issues with hooks at the moment are:

1. Not enough ways to interact with them
2. Not impactful enough

My dream "hook" system wouldn't have the distinct Weak/Strong/etc, but rather would be "Leverage" points that could accumulate and become even more powerful than Strong hooks.

For the sake of argument, say a Weak hook = 1 Leverage, Strong hook = 2 Leverage.

Regarding #1: I want to be able to offer Leverage, not just receive it. For example, join me in this faction, I'll give you 3 Leverage. Oh you're greedy? Here's 4. Or dissuade a rebellious vassal, or tip that marriage acceptance score over the edge, or call an ally for an offensive war. Which leads to #2...

Very high Leverage should allow someone to make extreme demands. The dude who helped my claimant faction and now has 4 Leverage can demand a duchy, so I go ahead and select which one to give him. The other guy who only got 3 Leverage demands a marriage. The Current Situation dropdown should warn me of people who have high Leverage, and what they could demand.

There are loads of ways you could take it... You could have an event where a complete nobody saves your life and uses their Leverage to become a vassal. That random woman I gave Leverage to help with a murder plot is now at my court and is demanding to be looked after. You get the idea... I want them to be way more impactful and to be able to use them more creatively.

 

[Gobla]

I'd love if hooks gave you more control over character intents. Right now intrigue seems very murder focused, with a side of seduction. Allowing for a more puppet master focus would much better capture the fantasy of a scheming ruler.

Being able to send courtiers you have hooks on to rival courts and them giving negative effects or events while they're there. Like leaving the gates open for a siege, stealing money or even artifacts, riling up factions to rebel etc. At least until they're discovered...

Or being able to influence your vassals or even liege. Direct them to fabricate claims and wage war on a target you select, revoke titels from your rivals, appoint your family as councillors or even grant them titles etc.

 

[davidproxy]

Apologies if this already exists but if not could we could use hooks to get characters to intentionally throw matches in activities?

I would also be interested in using hooks to encourage characters to kill other characters outside of a murder scheme. So you could have organized murder plots where you are gathering plotters and organizing everything or you could get a character to directly handle the assassination themselves. If their prowess is high enough, maybe they might be able to pull it off themselves or maybe they create their own murder scheme where they try to achieve the goal set to them. I also think this would be a cool system to give the spymaster. If I'm an important King maybe I don't want to be bothered with the details of the murder, I just give a target and a budget and the Spymaster does their best to do the murder. Maybe if they're corrupt they leech some extra gold from the murder budget.

Could hooks be used to give a positive opinion modifier to certain types of characters? For people with a certain type of personality, if you do them a favor or you're keeping a secret for them it could make you like them a lot. Personal Annecdote of this at work - When I was at my university a long time ago I got drunk and accidentally broke a girl's door in my dormitory while playing Frisbee in the halls (this is generally frowned upon). When the dorm administrator came to figure out who broke the door, the girl covered for me and said she had no idea who did it. This greatly improved my opinion of the girl and eventually I married her.

I also personally think that secrets should be exchanged directly for services instead of secret -> hook -> service. But I imagine that having to manually decide which secret to present a character with in exchange for joining a murder plot/scheme/whatever would be cumbersome and onerous so I understand not doing it this way.

 

[apollo1989vieten]

If I got a weak hook on some who is not allied to me, maybe I could use the favor/blackmail/whatever else could have caused the hook to ask them to help me in a war. Base reluctance would be lower than allies. And the hook doesn’t necessarily mean they will join. It just gives the option to ask. A hook on an ally would mean they would have to join, regardless of whether they would not initially.

 

[Weyird]

I wish I got hooks on more meaningful characters. Whenever I need a hook I don't have one. When I have a hook there's nothing really to do with it. Granted, I've never really played the intrigue game because pay-off for investment takes too long and isn't worth it.

 

[Torredebelem]

The Anatomy of a Hook as Written on the Fly...

I would change radically how Hooks work in the game.

First, when trying to fabricate a hook a test should be passed - success depending on the intrigue of both aggressor and target characters - to advance to the next phase, meaning, a test to "plant" the hook at "quality rating X". Then, a Hook should have a "quality rating" from X to Y and when a character was successful and passed the previously mentioned test, the rating would increase ever more slower depending on the Intrigue of the character and his/her decision to improve on the hook. So, suppose X is 1 and Y is 100, it would be far faster going from 1 to 20 than from 81 to 100. Besides this way of building Hooks, there would be possibilities - through events, for instance - to gain a hook with a defined quality rating.

Failure to plant a Hook should cost PRestige for Lower tiered target characters and Renown for Higher Tier ones. So, failure on a Commoner or a Mayor should cost Prestige, while failing to get a Hook on a King or Emperor should cost not only Prestige but also Renown. It should be ever harder to be successful at fabricating the Hook the farther away both characters are. Of course, if out of Diplomatic Range, it should be impossible to fabricate a hook.

To balance things out and to make for interesting strategies, a character could only improve (raise the quality rating) one hook at a time. In this way the player would face the decision to spread several "weak" hooks (with lesser quality ratings) or make someone really entangled on the grievous plans of the character.

The Intrigue Perk that allows a character to fabricate Hooks should only count to create new Hooks. Any character should be allowed to improve the quality rating of a Hook, thus meaning that Hooks given by event (or any other means) could be improved by anyone that chose so. Choosing to improve a hook should have a cost, ideally both an opportunity one as well as through more tangible means (gold comes immediately to mind).

The Quality Rating of a Hook should decrease naturally over time. Thus, after 25 years of not caring to improve it, the original 45 quality rating hook is now valued only at 10.

A character could only demand something from a "Hooked Character" with a cooldown period. Permanent Hook should be those that reach 100 Quality Rating, these ones would never drop their quality rating by time passing (but would still drop by performing Hook Actions - upon reaching 0, no more Hook).

Finally and to bind everything together, all the actions that are presently allowed by Hooks should have a "Quality Cost" that would be immediately subtracted from the Quality Rating of the Hook. If the cost exceeds the quality of the Hook, it cannot be done. Once Hook Quality rating reaches 0, no more Hook again. To balance things and not turn hooks into cash cows, each different action that can be performed on a "Hooked Character" should only be able to be done once.


If this is mildly interesting to anyone, forgive me for my sort of scrambled text as I am a bit in a hurry but I believe an attentive reader will get the gist of it.

EDITED FOR CLARITY AND TO CLOSE SOME LOOPHOLES

 

[Toleora]

We finally need realm laws which can be manipulated by the top liege or the vassals with hooks.

Maybe bound the realm laws to the council position so that for instance you need a hook on the steward to change taxation, or a hook on the realm marshall to manipulate levie loss

 

[BlueMoon20]

As some have said, current hooks lack the possibilities you can do with them. But at the same time, they also suffer from being too universal.

As a player, hooks on you are something to be feared. That's because you never know what they will use them on.

But it shouldn't always be like that. Hooks could be used for way more.

The best friend hook for example was something of a great addition in theory, but since you never know how this "friend" will act, you never know if you should really trust them with that hook (even though you are friends).
It would be great if they could be differentiated somewhat. Like, I wouldn't mind giving my best friend a hook of: I will always come to your aid, even if I'm in 3 wars myself at the moment" or "yes, you can marry into our family". If you could decide, what you want to owe people (at least partly in which direction), you would engage with hooks way more.

Strong hooks because of blackmail are something else. Those should be terrifying. But currently, the problem is that the penalty of refusing blackmail and just coming out with the secret is usually not that bad (or at least way less taxing than giving out 10 strong hooks to random people that find out one after the other.). You leave yourself to be blackmailed precisely because you think that that would be the better option. But it's usually not at the time in the game.

Also, decisions in random events, where the price for getting something good for giving somebody a hook is usually far too good if you give a hook to a commoner. They will never use them (since they don't have anything to use them on).
They could at least demand some money after 10 years. Or a piece of land if it was something truly big. If you give out a hook, it should never actually be for free. Most hooks should be used. If they're not, you kinda forget that they even exist. Every hook should have a role.

Giving hooks to random people who are usually of a way too different standing than you usually just ends up not being used at all.

Treating all hooks as the same thing, regardless of the reason that they were given in the first place, is a huge mistake in my opinion.

 

[Dimo87]

A lot of people have already posted some great ideas. In particular, I like the suggestion of leverage to have incremental influence on someone so it's not a one size fits all kind of hook system.

My main issue is that it almost never matters that you give someone a hook on you. Most of them are unlanded or outside of your realm and you couldn't care less. Only real way to address this is to make hooks or a leverage like system more universal in what they can do and just plain making things harder so that you're forced to use things like hooks more. Do you want your 37 learning court chaplain to also be your court's tutor, but they refuse because it's too much extra work? Use a hook. Do you want a vassal to focus on building forts? Use a hook. Do you want to actually know the strength of an enemy's army, but it's hidden by default? Use a hook on someone in their court. You have a great personal chamption, but then this nobody you met on the road shows up at your court with a hook and demands to be your champion instead. Now you're stuck with this 3 prowess weakling.

Those were just a couple examples. Also, demand payments for hooks should be universal so that they are useful to anyone. Just have it give half as much as it down now and then getting the perk gives you the current full amount.