Clarification on CV NAV and CV Fighter "missions"

[Secret Master]

I've been fooling around with carrier aircraft again, and I wanted to make sure I'm not missing something.

1) When based on a carrier, an aircraft with the first module being a fighter module (HMGs or whatever), the plane is now a CV fighter and can only perform carrier fighter missions when in naval combat on carrier. Even if it has a second or third module with torpedoes, during naval combat on a carrier, it should only act like a fighter. It can't multi-role in naval combat and shoot down enemy planes and bomb ships.

2) When based on a carrier, an aircraft with the first module being a torpedo, the plane is now a CV NAV and can only perform carrier NAV missions when in naval combat on a carrier. It doesn't matter if you mount HMGs on the wing modules, the plane will only try to sink ships in naval combat.

3) When specifically ordered to perform missions away from the carrier, planes can perform whatever mission they have modules for. If you manually tell a CV plane that has a torpedo module to naval strike a sea zone, it will do so even if that module isn't the first one.

The reason I'm asking is because I am noticing really odd behavior from CV NAVs that have defensive turrets or wing mounted guns. Basically, if you put any modules with air attack on a CV NAV (that has a torpedo module in the first slot), the plane will never shoot down opposing planes in naval combat. Never. It's like the defensive turrets or HMGs simply don't exist and they get butchered for free by opposing fighters. Is this intended behavior? And is it rooted in the planes being locked in their missions when operating in a naval battle from a carrier?

 

[vermicious knid]

An answer from the devs explaining exactly how this currently works would be great.

 

[bitmode]

1) When based on a carrier, an aircraft with the first module being a fighter module (HMGs or whatever), the plane is now a CV fighter and can only perform carrier fighter missions when in naval combat on carrier. Even if it has a second or third module with torpedoes, during naval combat on a carrier, it should only act like a fighter. It can't multi-role in naval combat and shoot down enemy planes and bomb ships.

Yes, CV fighter wings (only) perform the air superiority mission when scrambling.

2) When based on a carrier, an aircraft with the first module being a torpedo, the plane is now a CV NAV and can only perform carrier NAV missions when in naval combat on a carrier. It doesn't matter if you mount HMGs on the wing modules, the plane will only try to sink ships in naval combat.

Yes, any non-fighter carrier wing will (only) perform the naval strike mission, provided that's a valid mission for the wing. (If the wing can perform kamikaze and that's selected as a mission, it takes precedence. Edit: and if neither mission is available, they try to fall back to air superiority.) That being said, any active mission also takes part in air combat, both actively and passively.

3) When specifically ordered to perform missions away from the carrier, planes can perform whatever mission they have modules for. If you manually tell a CV plane that has a torpedo module to naval strike a sea zone, it will do so even if that module isn't the first one.

Yes

The reason I'm asking is because I am noticing really odd behavior from CV NAVs that have defensive turrets or wing mounted guns. Basically, if you put any modules with air attack on a CV NAV (that has a torpedo module in the first slot), the plane will never shoot down opposing planes in naval combat. Never. It's like the defensive turrets or HMGs simply don't exist and they get butchered for free by opposing fighters. Is this intended behavior? And is it rooted in the planes being locked in their missions when operating in a naval battle from a carrier?

As mentioned above, the selected mission should not stop the planes from dealing air damage. FWIW, non-BBA CV NAV do have air attack and I observe them dealing the expected air attack damage in a test battle.

EDIT: wrong! see post #20

 

[STABBY5]

The carrier planes are odd right now. They don't really work right. Take a look at this https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...planes-dont-attack-ships-1-12-1-45c2.1545256/

 

[bitmode]

The carrier planes are odd right now. They don't really work right. Take a look at this https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...planes-dont-attack-ships-1-12-1-45c2.1545256/

That bug and the QA comments there should be outdated as of 1.12.5 (Nov '22):

- Scrambled carrier airwings that can perform naval strike or kamikaze mission will prioritize them over air superiority and interception unless they are fighter or interceptor airwings.

(btw, interesting how something gets marked as "WAD" and yet appears in the bug fix section of the changelog just three weeks later)

 

[STABBY5]

That bug and the QA comments there should be outdated as of 1.12.5 (Nov '22):

(btw, interesting how something gets marked as "WAD" and yet appears in the bug fix section of the changelog just three weeks later)

Ah hadnt seen that in the change log.

 

[Secret Master]

As mentioned above, the selected mission should not stop the planes from dealing air damage. FWIW, non-BBA CV NAV do have air attack and I observe them dealing the expected air attack damage in a test battle.

I will do some more testing just to make sure I'm not screwing something up, but it's good to hear that I'm not taking crazy pills and missed something in an update.

But to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, this CV NAV...

...versus this CV fighter...

results in the CV NAVs getting wiped out with no losses on the Fulmars in naval combat. Even when the CV NAVs are outnumbered 2:1.

I know you don't have BBA, but some countries (I'm looking at you, France) literally start with a CV NAV design with a defensive turret. So, either the starting CV NAVs need to be changed, or the mechanics are messed up, or the tooltips are lying. (Or I fail at reading. Always a possibility.)

 

[Synicus]

Does this mean that the cannon on the Zero does not work being the second module/machine guns first?

 

[Secret Master]

Does this mean that the cannon on the Zero does not work being the second module/machine guns first?

No. Adding extra guns just adds firepower. It seems like the problem only comes up when you have a non-fighter module in the first slot (torpedoes, radio guided bomb, etc.).

 

[TruckerBarry65493]

CV's have been jammed out of the "meta" a bit with the new changes to navy
Still though, worth having, carrier fighters should be way way better than they currently are

 

[FocusedHope]

results in the CV NAVs getting wiped out with no losses on the Fulmars in naval combat. Even when the CV NAVs are outnumbered 2:1.

Did France actually have 50% detection in the English Channel? Did they have radar coverage of it, or something? Because one thing that comes to mind is, the number of planes that get to use their Air Attack stat is proportional to detection, and 320 non-fighter planes should give about 4% detection if I'm reading the wiki right. And that's if all 320 of them sortied every 8-hour plane combat tick; did either side in this have carrier sortie efficiency bonuses, or were they both at the base 50%?

 

[Secret Master]

Did France actually have 50% detection in the English Channel?

I made sure to put detection there.

But for the record, in naval combats with carriers, fighters shooting at each other get plenty of kills. And I want you to note that the Fulmars are getting kills against the CV NAVs. Combat is happening. It's not like the planes just can't see each other. It's just that the CV NAVs don't seem to fire their guns.

 

[vermicious knid]

I made sure to put detection there.

But for the record, in naval combats with carriers, fighters shooting at each other get plenty of kills. And I want you to note that the Fulmars are getting kills against the CV NAVs. Combat is happening. It's not like the planes just can't see each other. It's just that the CV NAVs don't seem to fire their guns.

Have you tried basing the two planes on land and recreating the experiment? I'm betting the land-based CV NAV fires the guns.

 

[Secret Master]

Have you tried basing the two planes on land and recreating the experiment? I'm betting the land-based CV NAV fires the guns.

Yes. There's no problem from land. I'm specifically looking at carrier fights. The planes seem to behave normally when on manually selected missions whether from land or carrier. i.e. telling the CV NAVs to naval strike a sea zone

 

[C0RAX]

This is working as designed right now. the op is correct in their assumptions about naval battle carrier aircraft mission selection

 

[FocusedHope]

This is working as designed right now. the op is correct in their assumptions about naval battle carrier aircraft mission selection

Is it WAD that a if a CV NAV is doing (I assume) naval strike in carrier combat, their Air Attack stat doesn't contribute to air combat? In particular, in a situation where an equivalent land-based plane doing naval strike would contribute their Air Attack stat to air combat, a carrier plane on a carrier in naval combat doesn't? Or is there some other explanation for OP's results (because detection was my best guess, and it doesn't seem to be causing this)?

And if OP's speculation (which I'm having trouble refuting) is right, are you saying that "a CV NAV's turrets are useless when on carrier missions" is WAD?

I made sure to put detection there.

But for the record, in naval combats with carriers, fighters shooting at each other get plenty of kills. And I want you to note that the Fulmars are getting kills against the CV NAVs. Combat is happening. It's not like the planes just can't see each other. It's just that the CV NAVs don't seem to fire their guns.

So as I understand detection, it's not symmetric. If UK had radar and France didn't (have either radar or other sources of detection), then UK's fighters would shoot France's NAVs but France's NAVs wouldn't shoot back at UK's fighters. But if you're saying France did have radar, then yeah there seems to be a problem.

 

[Secret Master]

So as I understand detection, it's not symmetric. If UK had radar and France didn't (have either radar or other sources of detection), then UK's fighters would shoot France's NAVs but France's NAVs wouldn't shoot back at UK's fighters.

Yeah, after rereading your post, I realized what you were actually saying. My bad for not paying attention. And yeah, plenty of RADAR on both sides of the Channel.

(For ship detection as much as plane detection. The first test I ran, I forgot to set up the RADAR. The fleets just kept sailing the Channel not finding each other.)

 

[C0RAX]

Is it WAD that a if a CV NAV is doing (I assume) naval strike in carrier combat, their Air Attack stat doesn't contribute to air combat? In particular, in a situation where an equivalent land-based plane doing naval strike would contribute their Air Attack stat to air combat, a carrier plane on a carrier in naval combat doesn't? Or is there some other explanation for OP's results (because detection was my best guess, and it doesn't seem to be causing this)?

And if OP's speculation (which I'm having trouble refuting) is right, are you saying that "a CV NAV's turrets are useless when on carrier missions" is WAD?

So as I understand detection, it's not symmetric. If UK had radar and France didn't (have either radar or other sources of detection), then UK's fighters would shoot France's NAVs but France's NAVs wouldn't shoot back at UK's fighters. But if you're saying France did have radar, then yeah there seems to be a problem.

I was responding to OP's statements more than the lack of carrier navs shooting back. navs not shooting back is odd since carrier planes should be doing their mission just like other planes. but the code is complex when it comes to combining land and carrier planes so it would need further investigation.

 

[Synicus]

Just don't mess them up over land. we're getting 7 years service out of the Zero.

 

[bitmode]

@Secret Master I ran some more tests and I have to retract some earlier statements. Seems like I can reproduce the bug now and it is not BBA specific.

That being said, any active mission also takes part in air combat, both actively and passively.

Carrier planes only take part actively in air combat (i.e. deal damage, disrupt etc.) if they scramble as a fighter mission. Taking damage and receiving disruption is independent from mission. I wrote it down back in patch 1.12.5 but must have overread it immediately as it makes so little sense. This being an explicit rule, I don't see any possible workaround as of now.

FWIW, non-BBA CV NAV do have air attack and I observe them dealing the expected air attack damage in a test battle.

I originally ran a test of 4 CV NAV and 4 CV fighter wings per side and saw 64 damage events which is only possible if everyone shoots at everyone. I can't reproduce that anymore though. It's possible I was running patch 1.11, which I often cross-reference.