Clarification on CV NAV and CV Fighter "missions"

[Secret Master]

To clarify the bug:

When flying from land, the CV NAVs are killing enemy fighters.

They are on naval strike in the Channel flying from land bases. The 2000 CV NAVs aren't doing a great job of bombing ships (they are getting disrupted), but they are certainly shooting back at the Fulmars.

I've updated the bug report in the bug forum.

 

[Ferrous Will]

The fundamental problem here is that plane combat is split across air-to-air, land, and naval combat and it seems the devs have trouble making all these tidbits of plane combat reach parity. CV-Navs don't shoot back because the shooting back is simulated in one of the phases during air-to-air combat, and has no equivalent in naval combat, which is where you observed this behavior.

IIRC However, perhaps problematically, this does not even matter all that much because in naval combat CV-fighters do not seem to even defend against opposing CV-navs, and if they do, definitely not noticibly. (Most, if not all, downed CV-Navs comes from ship anti-air)

The disruption mechanic was a pretty smart inclusion in the Avalanche patch but I think someone forgot to add the mechanic into naval battles (or something similar at least)

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

CV-Navs don't shoot back because the shooting back is simulated in one of the phases during air-to-air combat, and has no equivalent in naval combat, which is where you observed this behavior

But there is air-to-air combat in naval battles: that's what fighters do, as does every plane during night phase (when they can't carry out their other missions and thus default to fighters).

IIRC However, perhaps problematically, this does not even matter all that much because in naval combat CV-fighters do not seem to even defend against opposing CV-navs, and if they do, definitely not noticibly. (Most, if not all, downed CV-Navs comes from ship anti-air)

Before BBA (when I tried original navy challenge) fighters might have taken their time to shot down CV NAVs, but disruption effect was quite noticeable. If CV FTRs fail at their job now, it definitely a case for a bugreport.

 

[Ferrous Will]

But there is air-to-air combat in naval battles: that's what fighters do, as does every plane during night phase (when they can't carry out their other missions and thus default to fighters).

I think you missed my point entirely, I was speculating why this part of the game is buggy from a development perspective. "air-to-air combat" is reported in the air region infobox, whereas naval battle is reported in the naval battle infobox.

 

[The Colonel]

I looked at defines in another post related to this. Compared to the naval strike and air attack multipliers CV planes get (1000% and 500%), disruption is only increased by 50%.

Air Combat Tests for 1.12.10

Here are some fresh air combat tests, primarily involving heavy fighters. Since air combat has been discussed a lot recently and a lot of questions have been asked about good plane designs, I thought I would do some more tests and post them in...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[bitmode]

I looked at defines in another post related to this. Compared to the naval strike and air attack multipliers CV planes get (1000% and 500%), disruption is only increased by 50%.

That's what the defines say, but it does not seem to be working (anymore). I'm observing zero disruption damage penalty in a CV NAV vs CV fighter combat.

The disruption mechanic was a pretty smart inclusion in the Avalanche patch but I think someone forgot to add the mechanic into naval battles (or something similar at least)

Disruption existed long before 1.12 (DISRUPTION_FACTOR_CARRIER was added in 1.6); looks more like recent patches regressed in this regard.

 

[Ferrous Will]

Disruption existed long before 1.12 (DISRUPTION_FACTOR_CARRIER was added in 1.6); looks more like recent patches regressed in this regard.

How recent are we talking about here, because even in a 6 month old video by @pro.gamer.69 this lack of disruption caused by CV-fighter seems to already be a thing

 

[The Colonel]

That's what the defines say, but it does not seem to be working (anymore). I'm observing zero disruption damage penalty in a CV NAV vs CV fighter combat.

Even better lol

 

[Secret Master]

IIRC However, perhaps problematically, this does not even matter all that much because in naval combat CV-fighters do not seem to even defend against opposing CV-navs, and if they do, definitely not noticibly. (Most, if not all, downed CV-Navs comes from ship anti-air)

When I was testing, I was getting plenty of kills with CV fighters killing CV NAVs. You can even see it in one of my screenshots in this thread. 76 modern CV NAVs with jet engines and ton of defensive armament were shot down by Fulmars (1940 airframes with tier 3 engines and plenty of HMGs).

More air to air kills in that one naval battle than AA kills, and I put tier 3 AA on those ships.

 

[bitmode]

How recent are we talking about here, because even in a 6 month old video by @pro.gamer.69 this lack of disruption caused by CV-fighter seems to already be a thing

Not that recent. I haven't fully bisected it yet, but afaict it was working in 1.10.5 (April '21) and is broken in 1.11.12 (June '22).

Edit: 1.11.1 (Nov '21); I don't see anything air related in that patch log, much less carrier related

 

[pro.gamer.69]

How recent are we talking about here, because even in a 6 month old video by @pro.gamer.69 this lack of disruption caused by CV-fighter seems to already be a thing

lol i'm not 71cloak, his account here is @Cloak71
my other big profile was mmmmmmtoes over on the subreddit, back before i was permabanned, mods stopped updating the current metas threads and there was still some meaningful discussion there too (not that i'm bitter or anything)
speaking of which i just noticed a few other players active here also have youtubes - https://www.youtube.com/@counterfactualgaming, https://www.youtube.com/@sneakystrats, they're great too and worth trying to pump up in the algo

 

[Ferrous Will]

lol i'm not 71cloak, his account here is @Cloak71

Whoops, lol

 

[sm0ek]

CVs in this game just suck in general. There was a brief period after "By Blood Alone" where they were actually strong, as they should be! But now, even without all the bugs, they're useless again.

Carriers literally redefined naval combat irl, but in HoI4 for no reason at all, you can't even have more then 4 in a task-force. Port & Naval strikes take months just to kill a single BB...