Suggestions From A Female Gamer

[child_of_air]

I'm not sure if Paradox wants to or cares about attracting female players at all, but I'm going to assume that they do. (Who doesn't want to increase their fan base?) I frequent some reddit forums and other communities for the game, and most of the other female gamers that I've been talking to agree with me about some things that we would like to see changed. I'm sure that quite a few male gamers would also get on board with these changes too, given that they would make the game more dynamic and add depth.

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Edited to add- Since writing this I think points #2 and #3 are more important. However, I think point #1 is still a very intriguing idea and I would love to see it implemented.

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing the player of events at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often gave them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

3. Spouses, and the player's relationships with them, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming expansion and I really love the game. I just think it should be expanded upon a bit to include more interesting interactions when the realm is at peace, as it sometimes is. There is a huge emphasis on family and dynasty, but that exact same family interaction falls a bit short. Thanks so much for reading this and thank you for your hard work.

 

[LughC]

I mean, they had to "consent" but that didn't mean what I think you think it means. It wasn't as simple as "nah, I don't wanna" "well drat can't be helped then".

It was more "I don't wanna" "look you're going to agree to this or things are going to get unpleasant"


This also wasn't something only women delt with, though their overall lack of power and opportunities made it much harder for them to oppose a marriage. Both sons and daughters rarely had a voice in who they were going to marry. Marriages were about diplomacy, ties, and children. Not romance and choice. It was a duty to the family.

With that said I wouldn't mind it if there were issues and conflicts that came from poor pairings or unrulily temperaments. But we don't need to go about altering actual history to justify that. Particularly in a heavily ahistorical, what if sims type game.

 

[Lorehead]

Interesting proposal. If your children don’t approve of a marriage, several things could happen—running away, elopement, resentment, forcing you to use a hook to go through with it, being too afraid or too dutiful or too conflict-averse to say no, making you promise you owe them one, taking religious vows to get out of it in a socially-approved way. And which of these happen should depend on their personalities and yours. This would add a lot to the game.

 

[Stardance]

Its purely roleplay on my end, but I tend to look at the traits of different characters as a proxy when arranging marriages. Like, if these two have personalities and traits that mesh (maybe one is a poet, and the other an accomplished musician - maybe they are both martial and athletic, etc. ) . In some cases, there are opinion modifiers attached that impact the marriage acceptance, so if things are close, certain relationships make the cut while others don’t.

This could, theoretically, form a base for elopement, rivalries (fighting over the one beauty in court), friendships and more. I’ve seen a lot of comments lately that events feel too disconnected and random, not taking into account character traits or the court composition in any meaningful way.

A DLC for court life that really expands these interactions would be welcome.

Also, I still want to be able to launch a rescue mission if the 16 year old courtier’s crush gets kidnapped by raiders. Let’s get some good story arcs going!

 

[Ntartieni]

I'm not sure if Paradox wants to or cares about attracting female players at all, but I'm going to assume that they do. (Who doesn't want to increase their fan base?) I frequent some reddit forums and other communities for the game, and most of the other female gamers that I've been talking to agree with me about some things that we would like to see changed. I'm sure that quite a few male gamers would also get on board with these changes too, given that they would make the game more dynamic and add depth.

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Please change this, if you change anything!

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing them of things at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello, would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often gave them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

3. Spouses, and the player's relationships with them, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming expansion and I really love the game. I just think it should be expanded upon a bit to include more interesting interactions when the realm is at peace, as it sometimes is. There is a huge emphasis on family and dynasty, but that exact same family interaction falls a bit short. Thanks so much for reading this and thank you for your hard work.

I agree points 2,3 but you probably studied some out of history, paradoxically sexiest, book for point 1 as children were always used as "trade goods" in order to improve more important relationships between families. Realistically speaking, hardly, you would have seen a child have their word on their future back then. Maybe in a romantic movie.

 

[child_of_air]

Interesting proposal. If your children don’t approve of a marriage, several things could happen—running away, elopement, resentment, forcing you to use a hook to go through with it, being too afraid or too dutiful or too conflict-averse to say no, making you promise you owe them one, taking religious vows to get out of it in a socially-approved way. And which of these happen should depend on their personalities and yours. This would add a lot to the game.

Absolutely!

 

[Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom!]

This fits into a broader issue of this game needed more RPG elements, like character development. I'm quite often watching a siege progress, keeping an eye on enemy army movements...and that's about it. The role play elements feel like periodic interruptions to my map painting game play rather than the core game play that they should be. A lack of agency of female characters is certainly among the issues of the character side of this game.

 

[timmak1]

1) for Noble Women: "Not only did a woman have no choice of whom she married, but once married she came under her husband’s control and she was not allowed to divorce him."

Well... Blanche of Navarra, wife of Castilian king Enrique the Impotent divorce with him, because he was an impotent and they had no sex.

 

[WeeLittleSpoon]

Even just jumping over all of the obvious, reasonable arguments you could make about inclusivity and representation and why it would be good to give female characters more purpose in this game, I think these are great mechanical ideas. As others have said, this game needs more dynamics to in-game relationships, and I think this goes in a really good direction towards that.

The idea that you must negotiate with your own dynasty to get them to do things is brilliant. I think it would go a long way in making characters in this game feel more like people if they weren’t just impersonal chits waiting to be spent, but actually provided some opposition and had intentions of their own. This also seems like an ideal use case for Hooks. I think this really goes for all characters, but I do certainly admit that women of my dynasty sometimes almost feel like they’re perilously close to being tallied in a category next to Prestige and Piety at the top of the screen.

Well... Blanche of Navarra, wife of Castilian king Enrique the Impotent divorce with him, because he was an impotent and they had no sex.

haha, thank you for this. The Wikipedia entry for Henvry IV of Castile really amused me. It isn't just that Blanche claimed he was impotent, but that after three years of being unable to consummate their marriage, Henry asked for an annulment on the grounds that he was permanently impotent due to a curse. He could still have relations with prostitutes, and would be able to do so with Joan of Portugal if he was able to marry her, but a very specific spell kept him from performing his duties with only Blanche of Navarra.

"Sorry, honey, not tonight. I have a curse." That's maybe the greatest intimacy deflection of all time.

Of course I assume the real story is much more banal than that, and that Henry really just used Blanche and then wanted to marry Joan of Portugal, but wow. What a story.

 

[Bio the Human]

I don't agree with the first suggestion because the nobility was full of unwanted marriages and sexism, and same would go for boys and I'd actually increase the malus to the ruler who appoint low marriages. Give negative points to prestige and renown per month for every low marriage connected to your heirs.
But, what you say, and I'd be happy to see it, can be implemented in the opinion paramater of our children. If we give them a really bad spouse we receive low opinion from them and so increare the schemes appeareances.

But I totally agree with your other points, they should give AI characters more life and interactions with them. As a Ruler, I never had my sons scheme to murder me (even if I killed their brothers and my primal heir had -100 opinion).
Interactions with spouses, with children and even courtiers are all needed otherwise role play will always be hard.

 

[child_of_air]

Even just jumping over all of the obvious, reasonable arguments you could make about inclusivity and representation and why it would be good to give female characters more purpose in this game, I think these are great mechanical ideas. As others have said, this game needs more dynamics to in-game relationships, and I think this goes in a really good direction towards that.

The idea that you must negotiate with your own dynasty to get them to do things is brilliant. I think it would go a long way in making characters in this game feel more like people if they weren’t just impersonal chits waiting to be spent, but actually provided some opposition and had intentions of their own. This also seems like an ideal use case for Hooks. I think this really goes for all characters, but I do certainly admit that women of my dynasty sometimes almost feel like they’re perilously close to being tallied in a category next to Prestige and Piety at the top of the screen.

Yup. For players playing in Europe, I almost wonder what the point is in educating any of the girls, since they cannot sit on my council aside from taking part in court intrigues, nor do they rarely even educate their own children through the AI. Obviously I do educate all of them, but it annoys me to no end that most of them have better stats then my male courtiers, and yet I cannot use them. Throughout history women did partake in diplomacy, so I'm not sure why that path is totally closed off to them. It's true they did not travel to other courts as a diplomat would unless they were married, but they were often the key to solving conflicts between nations. Many of them acted on the parts of their husbands , children or fathers, and played an invaluable role. It happened again and again so why is it overlooked?

 

[Lollipop_but_rock]

For players playing in Europe, I almost wonder what the point is in educating any of the girls, since they cannot sit on my council aside from taking part in court intrigues, nor do they rarely even educate their own children through the AI. Obviously I do educate all of them, but it annoys me to no end that most of them have better stats then my male courtiers, and yet I cannot use them.

It's useful if the girls are married with not landed people so they stay in your court, then they can still be used in some court position (from royal court). I often have my girls as court physician, court teacher, antiquarian... And they also makes great mentors for other children of your dynasty, who can become your knights, be landed etc... .

 

[MossyShieldMaiden]

Such interesting ideas! Thank you for sharing them with the community, I think it makes for some great discussions.

 

[mario1789]

This seems like grounds for an expansion. The game has a tension where every ruler is like a chapter in a book, but there is a lot of room for stories about siblings and so on. Some other systems don't necessarily lend themselves so well to this. Some other systems don't lend themselves so well to relationships with children right now--like granting them titles or education or the like.

I do often use daughters, though, and they have interesting lives. I may force them into a marriage that isn't a great match but then they may have a lover and that can get them killed, ruin a key alliance or expansion of the dynasty, and serve as a long term motivation for revenge. A lot of the game is writing the-what-led-up-to-that-moment after the thing happens, not as it is happening, so in my headcannon there are already lots of interesting stories (why did she get assassinated, why did she have an affair, etc.). I usually find meaning after the fact as I stitch together a narrative. But I agree that there is room for developing things here.

 

[plansburn]

I would love to see a DLC using prominent women of history like Joan of Arc, Saint Olga, Cleopatra, Boudica, etc. as inspiration as well as a general update to families. We already have shieldmaidens and matriarchy for cultures with those traditions but a lot of the comments here have hit a point I fully agree with. We need cruelty to be responded to in game. Characters without titles or positions should still contribute/plot more than murder and seduction. We need tyranny to be responded to on an individual level, not just peasant and lord revolts. An unhappy child might begin a plot to convince lords to oust their parent in exchange for favors and or gold. A lord with only a daughter and legally no valid heirs could have an event where the daughter claims her fathers title upon death if she's brave and/or ambitious. I'd like to see spiteful parent's raise their children to dislike half siblings or the other parent. Real drama brought into the game.

 

[child_of_air]

I would love to see a DLC using prominent women of history like Joan of Arc, Saint Olga, Cleopatra, Boudica, etc. as inspiration as well as a general update to families. We already have shieldmaidens and matriarchy for cultures with those traditions but a lot of the comments here have hit a point I fully agree with. We need cruelty to be responded to in game. Characters without titles or positions should still contribute/plot more than murder and seduction. We need tyranny to be responded to on an individual level, not just peasant and lord revolts. An unhappy child might begin a plot to convince lords to oust their parent in exchange for favors and or gold. A lord with only a daughter and legally no valid heirs could have an event where the daughter claims her fathers title upon death if she's brave and/or ambitious. I'd like to see spiteful parent's raise their children to dislike half siblings or the other parent. Real drama brought into the game.

Agreed. Those sounds like really good ideas to me.

 

[Lorehead]

I would love to see a DLC using prominent women of history like Joan of Arc, Saint Olga, Cleopatra, Boudica, etc. as inspiration as well as a general update to families.

Most of those are from far outside the time period, and would make a lot of sense in a CK-like Classical-era game. (Along with some others like Zenobia.) But CK2 had a character based on St. Joan (although she could be Maid of Anywhere, not just Orleans). That seems to be a good approach, for characters who aren’t historical rulers. Speaking of which, Matilda seems to be getting some more love.

 

[Stardance]

Eleanor of Aquitaine, 1122-1204, participated in the second crusade, patroness of the arts in the development of the concepts of courtly love and chivalry in French literature. These included authors like Chretian de Troyes and Andreas Cappelanus, who significantly influenced the aristocracy to regard women more as individuals and less like property.

Found this after a brief search. Honestly, that’s pretty amazing.

Here’s some others. Games ending date is 1453.

Marie de France (1160-1215), a poet
Julian of Norwich (1342-1416) author of religious literature
Christine de Pizan (1364-1430), writer and counselor of kings. Among other things, wrote a manual advising how women could handle their finances, husbands, and estates.
Margery Kempe (1373-1438)
Joan of Arc (1412-1431) guess she does count!

I’m sure there are more.

 

[Lorehead]

Keep in mind, the Devs have said they are not going to create any later starting dates or historical characters for them, because it’s a lot of work and no one was playing them. There are a few historical characters who can get created by event, like the one to create a Mongol emperor named Genghis Khan, but nobody born after 1066, male or female, is going to be added to the history files. Except in a mod.

Historical women in the time period are relevant to what the game should allow female characters to do, though. Some people make the erroneous assumption that, because the their parents’ generation were a little more sexist than them and their grandparents were a little more sexist than their parents, this was true of every generation from the Middle Ages to today. This leads some to claim, for example, that people must have been at least as opposed to women leading armies in the 11th century as they were in the 19th century, and they weren’t.

 

[child_of_air]

Keep in mind, the Devs have said they are not going to create any later starting dates or historical characters for them, because it’s a lot of work and no one was playing them. There are a few historical characters who can get created by event, like the one to create a Mongol emperor named Genghis Khan, but nobody born after 1066, male or female, is going to be added to the history files. Except in a mod.

Historical women in the time period are relevant to what the game should allow female characters to do, though. Some people make the erroneous assumption that, because the their parents’ generation were a little more sexist than them and their grandparents were a little more sexist than their parents, this was true of every generation from the Middle Ages to today. This leads some to claim, for example, that people must have been at least as opposed to women leading armies in the 11th century as they were in the 19th century, and they weren’t.

Some people did, particularly some of the clergy that felt that women shouldn't be doing anything but popping out babies, but if you were higher up on in the pecking order you could usually get away with leading an army. I have to say that there are several women though in the 1066 start that didn't get their due. They don't have the traits they would have had in real life, nor are they commanding armies despite the fact that that is exactly what they did during their lifetime. I feel like many of the women in the game are just straight up overlooked, especially in Spain. Let's hope they remedy that in the next pack.

I for one don't agree with some of the choices the Devs made. For instance, why are Harold's children "legitimized bastards"? They were never considered bastards in any references I've read. His first marriage was never considered illegitimate. I don't know where they got their information from, but as far as I can tell it's not quite accurate.

 

[child_of_air]

Such interesting ideas! Thank you for sharing them with the community, I think it makes for some great discussions.

I hope it's more than a discussion. I hope that some of my ideas get implemented into the game.