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Dev Diary #42 - Cultural Secessions

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Welcome back to another chapter in this rundown of features that might tear your lovely nation apart! Last week we discussed Revolutions, which is where politically engaged members of your society rise up to change your country in favor of a certain Law. Today we will discuss another type of Civil War: Cultural Secessions, which is where Pops in your nation of a certain culture demand their right to self-determination and carve out their own country from yours. These types of Civil Wars have some similarity in mechanics but ultimately serve two very different purposes.

Just like revolutions can be seen as a failure to balance the economic and political needs of different classes against each other, secessions can be seen as a failure to see to the needs of Pops of certain cultures within your borders. Often this can come about as the result of aggressive expansion or systematic oppression of Pops of certain cultures (or indeed, the religions commonly associated with those cultures). Just like revolutions there are several paths to go down in order to deal with the problems secessionists might cause.

Back in the Migration dev diary we briefly mentioned a mechanic called Turmoil. Turmoil is the effect of having too many Radicals in your country, and has effects both on the state level and on entire cultures worldwide. To understand cultural secessions we have to understand Turmoil a bit better first.

Turmoil measures social friction and conflicts between Pops. This can include crime, violence, angry protests, and more. When a substantial part of a state’s total population are made up of Radicals, Turmoil is created and negative effects start to be applied: there’s a certain amount of Tax Waste, modeling all the different costs of the types of unrest Turmoil represents; and the state’s migration attraction decreases substantially, because nobody wants to move to an area where trouble is brewing

Louisiana appears to be going through some difficulties. Could that be a slave revolt brewing?
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As you might recall from the Political Movements dev diary, Radicals can originate from a number of sources, including drops in material wealth, being below the minimum expected Standard of Living, or supporting a movement that’s not being listened to. But one additional major cause of radicalism tends to be Discrimination - particular discrimination of literate Pops.

Which begs the question, if discrimination creates radicals, and radicals lead to turmoil, and turmoil hurts your economy - why would any country discriminate against parts of their population in the first place?

First, discrimination is governed by Laws, and most countries start out with Laws that would cause certain cultures or religions to be discriminated against - even if such Pops aren’t even present in the country at game starts. You don’t pick and choose which cultures or religions to discriminate against, it’s all based on your Laws and how similar other cultures and religions are to your country’s primary culture(s) and religion. These Laws are supported by Interest Groups, so while you can try to put an end to your discriminatory practices by changing your Citizenship and Church & State Laws, certain groups might not be pleased with you if you do.

Second, discriminated Pops get paid less than their non-discriminated peers. This in turn makes ownership shareholders - and potentially all non-discriminated Pops in states where discriminated Pops live - richer, as they get a larger piece of the productivity pie. Therefore, putting an end to discrimination would hurt their personal finances, which causes them to Radicalize - and they have more Political Strength to hurt you with than the discriminated Pops do.

Third, discriminated Pops have considerably less Political Strength than their peers. If you’re worried about potential uprisings, getting rid of discriminatory practices could certainly help you in the long-term, but in the short-term it will empower the formerly discriminated to make stronger demands. It might be tempting to retain the status quo unless you’re prepared to take the fight with both the conservative elements of your society and the newly equal citizens who might want to see a few changes.

But since discrimination occurs on a cultural basis (and if not cultural then often religious, which often maps back to a certain cultures anyway), this means that even if Pops of a certain culture represents a small proportion of the population in your country, the proportion of Pops within that culture that are Radical could be very large indeed. So in addition to measuring Turmoil on the state level, we also measure it on a culture level, and on a culture-in-country level.

The Maghrebi culture might not have very high Turmoil overall because most of them live in Tunis and Morocco where they aren’t discriminated against, but within France the Turmoil among Maghrebi Pops could reach higher levels.
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As we know from the Migration diary, if a whole culture has high Turmoil, this can result in the emergence of Mass Migration targets - states across the globe that temporarily gain the ability for Pops of those cultures to mass migrate there. This is the “peaceful” resolution to Discrimination - eventually, Pops who suffer systematic discrimination and see no improvement to their material conditions to compensate will simply pack up and move to someplace where they’re accepted.

But if Pops in a country suffer high Turmoil and live on one of their Cultural Homelands, they may instead start a Secession Movement. This could be the case for the Maghrebi population of Algiers, for example: they’re not only being oppressed, but they’re being oppressed on land they feel is theirs by right, and the obvious solution is to kick the French out of there. However, an Algerian that moves to Nice after their homeland was colonized and introduced to the French market will not try to start a secession movement for a Maghrebian sovereign state in southern France.

A Secession Movement functions a lot like a Revolutionary movement. It will gradually escalate in intensity until it reaches a threshold, after which point one or several states will break off from the country to form their own, then launch a Diplomatic Play. Much like Revolutionary and Political movements, you can deal with these by trying to fix the underlying issues - whether the discrimination or the lack of material comforts - or by suppressing the troublemakers using decrees or the Home Affairs institution. If you can get the situation back under control you can dodge the secession for this time, but the movement might of course return if conditions worsen.

You can also deal with it more permanently by simply ceding the land to secessionists. In this case you would release a nation, including all Homelands of that culture in your possession. One benefit of this approach is that you can release the nation as a Subject, permitting you to still meddle in their affairs and exploit their economy even while you grant them at least some degree of self-determination. With no Homelands now left in your possession, the secessionist movement will vanish immediately.

Another option when releasing a nation is to play as them, which immediately puts you in charge of that country instead!
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But if you do not do any of these things, the secession will take place. This launches a Diplomatic Play where the country seceded from automatically gains the “Crush the Uprising” war goal, which if enforced will return the seceded states to their possession. The secessionists on the other hand only need to defend themselves! Unlike with Revolutions, a secession can (sort of by definition) result in a white peace where the seceding country is simply left to exist.

Just like in Revolutionary Plays, other countries with Interests or certain Pacts are able to intervene on behalf of either country. Most importantly, if the culture seceding is already a Primary Culture in another country - for Maghrebi, that would be Tunis - that country is automatically invited to join the Play on the defender’s side. Should they succeed to beat France, the seceding states would then become part of Tunis.

In addition, as soon as such a Secession Play has commenced, there is a chance that secessionist movements for this culture will break out in other countries, even if they don’t meet the Turmoil threshold! The classic example for this is Poland. Polish Pops live on Homelands across Prussia, Austria, and Russia. If any one of these countries mistreat the Poles to the point where they break away and form Poland, Polish pan-nationalist movements might break out in the other two countries as well. This potentially means having to fight all three countries for their independence!

Will the three Great Powers unite in crushing the Polish nationalist movement? Or perhaps one will graciously give up their parcel of land to Poland and start bankrolling them instead, hoping to weaken their rivals and maybe gain a new puppet state in the process?
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Cultural Secession and Turmoil is a pretty classic take on anti-blobbing mechanics - if you aggressively expand too quickly your new subjects will get angry, will become more of a liability than an asset to you, and may even try to take their land back. But with Victoria’s thematic focus on nation-states and pan-nationalism, these interact with the core mechanics of Pops, Cultures, Homelands, Radicals, Turmoil, and Diplomatic Plays to give you more tools to influence the situation than just pacing your conquests. Perhaps you will be a benevolent imperialist conqueror, who abhors Discrimination and Incorporates every new state to extend the benefit of your Institutions to them, convincing the newly conquered that they’re better off under your rule? Or perhaps you will exploit their natural resources but release them as a Subject nation integrated into your market as soon as they get rowdy? Or you build good relations with a neighboring power who's also oppressing this population so you have a natural ally in case you need to put down a rebellion together? Or you stay in your own lane while putting Interests all around you, so you can get involved in these conflicts when they happen to others in order to create buffer states aligned with you?

That’s all for me for a little while! Next week Ofaloaf will give us a peek at how we handle a very special butterfly of a civil war that’s not really a revolution, not really a cultural secession, but that includes elements from both: the American Civil War.
 
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> "Maghrebi culture is discriminated in France"

The somewhat more correct English formulation for this would be "is discriminated against in France". I can discriminate against you, but it's ungrammatical to say that "I discriminate you".

I'm sure someone has already made this point; if so, +1!
 
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So we can't try to decide what territory we wont to release as subject? It's either all homeland or nothing?
Tbh this is kinda disappointing then, since u might have claim to part of their territory as well and may not recognize their claim to it. This is important to cultures that are spread across many territories with multiple cultures considering as 'homeland' same territory

Yeah, seems odd to me; example off the top of my head, Transylvania and the Banat, which has overlaps for (a minimum) Magyars, Romanians, Serbs and some Germans (which probably won't be distinctly modelled, but might be).
 
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I hope you add new ways to blob in this game.

The problem with your past games is that you only blob through war with conquest or vassalization which becomes boring.

I read that you can integrate other countries into your markets which is another way to blob, and that is good. But I would also want to see ways for my political belief to blob. For example if I play communist Russia I want to make EU communist, but not necessarily vassalize other countries or integrate them. Or spread democracy in reverse.

I hope there is a way I could declare war on a country and put my political party in charge if I win the war, without conquest or vassalization. More like a sphereling.

Another way to blob would be though culture or religion,

Also hope proxy wars will be possible, or supporting rebels to flip the country politcally.
This is a MUST have. It's basically essential for any modern-day / cold war mod as well.
 
Will it be possible to support the polish uprising in Russia and Austria as Prussia/Germany in a way to say this is our land now but we are glad to help you somewhere else?
 
Will it be possible to support the polish uprising in Russia and Austria as Prussia/Germany in a way to say this is our land now but we are glad to help you somewhere else?

AFAICT you can absolutely do that as part of picking sides in a diplomatic play.

Just realize that just because you are saying 'we support a Polish state in Russian territory' doesn't mean the Poles aren't hearing 'we support a Polish state in occupied territories'.
 
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What methods do we have to prevents rebells from spawning? In EU4 there are many methods but in Victoria 2 almost none. It seems like rebels will be a focus in this game like in victoria 2 then the player needs clear tools and instructions how to deal with them.
 
What methods do we have to prevents rebells from spawning? In EU4 there are many methods but in Victoria 2 almost none. It seems like rebels will be a focus in this game like in victoria 2 then the player needs clear tools and instructions how to deal with them.

There appear to be 3 main methods.

1) Internal security systems, like a secret police force, which works against radicalizing pops to keep them from raising up in rebellion.
2) Laws in general, where cultures that aren't discriminated against generally not radicalizing as easily or readily, but having more political power that needs to be reckoned with.
3) Standard of Living, or outright bribery. So long as the standard of living improves or at least does not drop, populations are unlikely to conclude that the current government needs to be replaced in favour of one that does more for the people.
 
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There appear to be 3 main methods.

1) Internal security systems, like a secret police force, which works against radicalizing pops to keep them from raising up in rebellion.
2) Laws in general, where cultures that aren't discriminated against generally not radicalizing as easily or readily, but having more political power that needs to be reckoned with.
3) Standard of Living, or outright bribery. So long as the standard of living improves or at least does not drop, populations are unlikely to conclude that the current government needs to be replaced in favour of one that does more for the people.
Okey there should be some possibility to have fortresses and garrisons , so you can fortify your provinces to prevent rebellions. I know no units on map but such a system should be possible anyway. So you can spend money there if you dont want to have to deal with rebellions.
 
The pops of a culture willing to join in their fellow culture's secession movement lead to a question:

Will pops have an awareness of where the standard of living is highest (and discrimination the least) for their culture to refer to for where to prioritize immigration?

Will other nations (&/or their leaders) have an opinion modifier for nations that mistreat their people abroad in other countries?
 
Okey there should be some possibility to have fortresses and garrisons , so you can fortify your provinces to prevent rebellions. I know no units on map but such a system should be possible anyway. So you can spend money there if you dont want to have to deal with rebellions.

The internal security apparatus deals with most of the 'pay money to suppress rebellion' issue, but failing that, you can build barracks, recruits battalions and the generals to lead them and when the insurrection/secession play starts you can mobilize those forces and put them into play. Who knows, might be the rebels preparing for a fight take a look at the army of a 100 000 angry Germans marching up and down the streets of Posen and go 'you know what, not getting shot in a battle and war we are going to lose horribly anyway sounds like a good idea'.

The pops of a culture willing to join in their fellow culture's secession movement lead to a question:

Will pops have an awareness of where the standard of living is highest (and discrimination the least) for their culture to refer to for where to prioritize immigration?

Will other nations (&/or their leaders) have an opinion modifier for nations that mistreat their people abroad in other countries?

AFAIK pops do know where conditions are 'best' for them and when migrating are more likely to migrate to there. However, that awareness appears to be mostly 'does it pay better'.
 
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I am certain that laws to create social security will most likely raise standard of livings. So you don’t have to be a capitalist country. You can also play as an anarcho-syndicalist commune where the people take turns who is the executive-officer-for-the-week where all decisions are ratified at the bi-weekly meeting.
 
Cultural Secession and Turmoil is a pretty classic take on anti-blobbing mechanics - if you aggressively expand too quickly your new subjects will get angry, will become more of a liability than an asset to you, and may even try to take their land back. But with Victoria’s thematic focus on nation-states and pan-nationalism, these interact with the core mechanics of Pops, Cultures, Homelands, Radicals, Turmoil, and Diplomatic Plays to give you more tools to influence the situation than just pacing your conquests. Perhaps you will be a benevolent imperialist conqueror, who abhors Discrimination and Incorporates every new state to extend the benefit of your Institutions to them, convincing the newly conquered that they’re better off under your rule? Or perhaps you will exploit their natural resources but release them as a Subject nation integrated into your market as soon as they get rowdy? Or you build good relations with a neighboring power who's also oppressing this population so you have a natural ally in case you need to put down a rebellion together? Or you stay in your own lane while putting Interests all around you, so you can get involved in these conflicts when they happen to others in order to create buffer states aligned with you?

Would I be able to enforce national genocide as Russia did with Circassia?

 
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Okey there should be some possibility to have fortresses and garrisons , so you can fortify your provinces to prevent rebellions. I know no units on map but such a system should be possible anyway. So you can spend money there if you dont want to have to deal with rebellions.
Fortresses don't ever prevent rebellions, in that they don't counter the unrest that is building, their only intended use is to protect the soldiers inside a fortress. Garrisons can reduce unrest but that is modeled in the game as the Internal Security institution.

Having a larger army can still help in winning the war with the rebels but armies don't prevent rebels from uprising. Police to arrest rebel cells and laws to create political-cultural unity and better economic opportunity do this. All of this is modeled in the game.
 
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Actually as far as i know Austria supported complete polish independence in Congress of Vienna, going as far as to claiming that they are willing to give up their own polish territory.
Also neither Prussia nor Russia wanted to be multi-national empires. Both went out of their way to suppress poles and/or catholics and both promised poles 'independent Poland' during WW1, so yeah there are reasons to believe that given chance they could make buffer state.
That's a fair point on Austria but only to a point. They are definitely wanting to be a multi-national empire if just to keep Hungary after Austria-Hungary forms. Yes, Prussia and Russia did not want to "empower" minorities. But both had ambitions to conquer other peoples, which I would consider to be multi-national empires, just not egalitarian regimes.
 
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That's a fair point on Austria but only to a point. They are definitely wanting to be a multi-national empire if just to keep Hungary after Austria-Hungary forms. Yes, Prussia and Russia did not want to "empower" minorities. But both had ambitions to conquer other peoples, which I would consider to be multi-national empires, just not egalitarian regimes.
Never said Austria didn't wonted to be multi-national empire, thought I understand why u could interpret my previous comment like it.
Prussia primary goal was to grow in strength and unite Germany, after that they didn't wonted that much land for themself* (Didn't Bismarck literally said that 'Germany is complete'?)
This can be even proven by WW1, where in Brest-Litovsk treaty they created a bunch of 'independent' countries where they wonted to put in government their people.
Russia... Fair point. I have a bit different understanding of what 'multi-national empire' means.

*Obliviously this doesn't include colonies and territory they wonted to be dependable on Germany
 
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Never said Austria didn't wonted to be multi-national empire, thought I understand why u could interpret my previous comment like it.
Prussia primary goal was to grow in strength and unite Germany, after that they didn't wonted that much land for themself* (Didn't Bismarck literally said that 'Germany is complete'?)
This can be even proven by WW1, where in Brest-Litovsk treaty they created a bunch of 'independent' countries where they wonted to put in government their people.
Russia... Fair point. I have a bit different understanding of what 'multi-national empire' means.

*Obliviously this doesn't include colonies and territory they wonted to be dependable on Germany
What I meant by Prussia wanting other peoples is that while Germany was being formed (so not in 1914), the very idea of Germany was up for grabs. What if Austria had fallen apart? The Prussians would be wetting their pants to get Austria as an integrated state on the same level as Saxony subservient to the Prussian ideas of the German state. Remember that Austria joined (with force applied) Germany in the late 1930s so the idea of Austria being German was quite strong in a significant portion of the Austrian people.

If Denmark had offered to join Germany, Prussia would have been very happy to agree. Since the idea of "Germany" was amorphous and rapidly evolving and being built one piece at a time, I would argue that Prussia had a big incentive to convince or force as many peoples into the new tent as early as possible to cement the future nation-state's territories and power.

By WWI, Germany was a solid idea, a complete nation. It would be simpler to create a constellation of puppets and protectorates to defend and feed German heartlands.

Concerning Russia being a multi-national empire, I meant that in the sense that the Russian state has never reconciled the idea of popular sovereignty with the idea of what Russia is itself. All the European powers had to create a liberal constitution as a result of the 19th-century revolutions and movements, at least in theory, to give some power to the people, and reduce the clout of the monarch. Russia has never had to do this, it has never democratized since the beginning of the czars, except for very brief very fleeting moments like the few months during the October Revolution before the Soviets took full control or during the early 90s. The Soviet period itself is a very-anti democratic period that hides its authoritarian nature with egalitarian words. And even then, in the latter example, the democratic period was utterly compromised and corrupted by the oligarchies and preexisting aristocratic/elite power structures. You can see Russia's constant weakness as a unifying institution of the nation-state in the Chechen wars in the 90s. There are large chunks of territory that would fly away from Moscow if centralized power was too relaxed and diluted.

Sorry about misinterpreting your comment about Austria!
 
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