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Dev Diary #42 - Cultural Secessions

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Welcome back to another chapter in this rundown of features that might tear your lovely nation apart! Last week we discussed Revolutions, which is where politically engaged members of your society rise up to change your country in favor of a certain Law. Today we will discuss another type of Civil War: Cultural Secessions, which is where Pops in your nation of a certain culture demand their right to self-determination and carve out their own country from yours. These types of Civil Wars have some similarity in mechanics but ultimately serve two very different purposes.

Just like revolutions can be seen as a failure to balance the economic and political needs of different classes against each other, secessions can be seen as a failure to see to the needs of Pops of certain cultures within your borders. Often this can come about as the result of aggressive expansion or systematic oppression of Pops of certain cultures (or indeed, the religions commonly associated with those cultures). Just like revolutions there are several paths to go down in order to deal with the problems secessionists might cause.

Back in the Migration dev diary we briefly mentioned a mechanic called Turmoil. Turmoil is the effect of having too many Radicals in your country, and has effects both on the state level and on entire cultures worldwide. To understand cultural secessions we have to understand Turmoil a bit better first.

Turmoil measures social friction and conflicts between Pops. This can include crime, violence, angry protests, and more. When a substantial part of a state’s total population are made up of Radicals, Turmoil is created and negative effects start to be applied: there’s a certain amount of Tax Waste, modeling all the different costs of the types of unrest Turmoil represents; and the state’s migration attraction decreases substantially, because nobody wants to move to an area where trouble is brewing

Louisiana appears to be going through some difficulties. Could that be a slave revolt brewing?
DD42 01.png

As you might recall from the Political Movements dev diary, Radicals can originate from a number of sources, including drops in material wealth, being below the minimum expected Standard of Living, or supporting a movement that’s not being listened to. But one additional major cause of radicalism tends to be Discrimination - particular discrimination of literate Pops.

Which begs the question, if discrimination creates radicals, and radicals lead to turmoil, and turmoil hurts your economy - why would any country discriminate against parts of their population in the first place?

First, discrimination is governed by Laws, and most countries start out with Laws that would cause certain cultures or religions to be discriminated against - even if such Pops aren’t even present in the country at game starts. You don’t pick and choose which cultures or religions to discriminate against, it’s all based on your Laws and how similar other cultures and religions are to your country’s primary culture(s) and religion. These Laws are supported by Interest Groups, so while you can try to put an end to your discriminatory practices by changing your Citizenship and Church & State Laws, certain groups might not be pleased with you if you do.

Second, discriminated Pops get paid less than their non-discriminated peers. This in turn makes ownership shareholders - and potentially all non-discriminated Pops in states where discriminated Pops live - richer, as they get a larger piece of the productivity pie. Therefore, putting an end to discrimination would hurt their personal finances, which causes them to Radicalize - and they have more Political Strength to hurt you with than the discriminated Pops do.

Third, discriminated Pops have considerably less Political Strength than their peers. If you’re worried about potential uprisings, getting rid of discriminatory practices could certainly help you in the long-term, but in the short-term it will empower the formerly discriminated to make stronger demands. It might be tempting to retain the status quo unless you’re prepared to take the fight with both the conservative elements of your society and the newly equal citizens who might want to see a few changes.

But since discrimination occurs on a cultural basis (and if not cultural then often religious, which often maps back to a certain cultures anyway), this means that even if Pops of a certain culture represents a small proportion of the population in your country, the proportion of Pops within that culture that are Radical could be very large indeed. So in addition to measuring Turmoil on the state level, we also measure it on a culture level, and on a culture-in-country level.

The Maghrebi culture might not have very high Turmoil overall because most of them live in Tunis and Morocco where they aren’t discriminated against, but within France the Turmoil among Maghrebi Pops could reach higher levels.
DD42 02.png

As we know from the Migration diary, if a whole culture has high Turmoil, this can result in the emergence of Mass Migration targets - states across the globe that temporarily gain the ability for Pops of those cultures to mass migrate there. This is the “peaceful” resolution to Discrimination - eventually, Pops who suffer systematic discrimination and see no improvement to their material conditions to compensate will simply pack up and move to someplace where they’re accepted.

But if Pops in a country suffer high Turmoil and live on one of their Cultural Homelands, they may instead start a Secession Movement. This could be the case for the Maghrebi population of Algiers, for example: they’re not only being oppressed, but they’re being oppressed on land they feel is theirs by right, and the obvious solution is to kick the French out of there. However, an Algerian that moves to Nice after their homeland was colonized and introduced to the French market will not try to start a secession movement for a Maghrebian sovereign state in southern France.

A Secession Movement functions a lot like a Revolutionary movement. It will gradually escalate in intensity until it reaches a threshold, after which point one or several states will break off from the country to form their own, then launch a Diplomatic Play. Much like Revolutionary and Political movements, you can deal with these by trying to fix the underlying issues - whether the discrimination or the lack of material comforts - or by suppressing the troublemakers using decrees or the Home Affairs institution. If you can get the situation back under control you can dodge the secession for this time, but the movement might of course return if conditions worsen.

You can also deal with it more permanently by simply ceding the land to secessionists. In this case you would release a nation, including all Homelands of that culture in your possession. One benefit of this approach is that you can release the nation as a Subject, permitting you to still meddle in their affairs and exploit their economy even while you grant them at least some degree of self-determination. With no Homelands now left in your possession, the secessionist movement will vanish immediately.

Another option when releasing a nation is to play as them, which immediately puts you in charge of that country instead!
DD42 03.png

But if you do not do any of these things, the secession will take place. This launches a Diplomatic Play where the country seceded from automatically gains the “Crush the Uprising” war goal, which if enforced will return the seceded states to their possession. The secessionists on the other hand only need to defend themselves! Unlike with Revolutions, a secession can (sort of by definition) result in a white peace where the seceding country is simply left to exist.

Just like in Revolutionary Plays, other countries with Interests or certain Pacts are able to intervene on behalf of either country. Most importantly, if the culture seceding is already a Primary Culture in another country - for Maghrebi, that would be Tunis - that country is automatically invited to join the Play on the defender’s side. Should they succeed to beat France, the seceding states would then become part of Tunis.

In addition, as soon as such a Secession Play has commenced, there is a chance that secessionist movements for this culture will break out in other countries, even if they don’t meet the Turmoil threshold! The classic example for this is Poland. Polish Pops live on Homelands across Prussia, Austria, and Russia. If any one of these countries mistreat the Poles to the point where they break away and form Poland, Polish pan-nationalist movements might break out in the other two countries as well. This potentially means having to fight all three countries for their independence!

Will the three Great Powers unite in crushing the Polish nationalist movement? Or perhaps one will graciously give up their parcel of land to Poland and start bankrolling them instead, hoping to weaken their rivals and maybe gain a new puppet state in the process?
DD42 04 v1.png

Cultural Secession and Turmoil is a pretty classic take on anti-blobbing mechanics - if you aggressively expand too quickly your new subjects will get angry, will become more of a liability than an asset to you, and may even try to take their land back. But with Victoria’s thematic focus on nation-states and pan-nationalism, these interact with the core mechanics of Pops, Cultures, Homelands, Radicals, Turmoil, and Diplomatic Plays to give you more tools to influence the situation than just pacing your conquests. Perhaps you will be a benevolent imperialist conqueror, who abhors Discrimination and Incorporates every new state to extend the benefit of your Institutions to them, convincing the newly conquered that they’re better off under your rule? Or perhaps you will exploit their natural resources but release them as a Subject nation integrated into your market as soon as they get rowdy? Or you build good relations with a neighboring power who's also oppressing this population so you have a natural ally in case you need to put down a rebellion together? Or you stay in your own lane while putting Interests all around you, so you can get involved in these conflicts when they happen to others in order to create buffer states aligned with you?

That’s all for me for a little while! Next week Ofaloaf will give us a peek at how we handle a very special butterfly of a civil war that’s not really a revolution, not really a cultural secession, but that includes elements from both: the American Civil War.
 
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Testeria

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Concerning Russia being a multi-national empire, I meant that in the sense that the Russian state has never reconciled the idea of popular sovereignty with the idea of what Russia is itself.

Russia had the idea to create monolithic nation-state encompassing all Slavs and Orthodox land - and it was doing it by forced russification, destruction of cultural artifacts, forced colonization of Siberia by "criminal" Slavs, forced movements of ethnic elements to other territory, and genocide where necessary (esp. Muslims from Circassia).

You can see Russia's constant weakness as a unifying institution of the nation-state in the Chechen wars in the 90s. There are large chunks of territory that would fly away from Moscow if centralized power was too relaxed and diluted.

Actually during CCCP times Russia stopped russification process and even officially recognized ethnic element that both previous and later Russian governments denied existence (like Ukrainian or Tatar).
 

Papar

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What I meant by Prussia wanting other peoples is that while Germany was being formed (so not in 1914), the very idea of Germany was up for grabs. What if Austria had fallen apart? The Prussians would be wetting their pants to get Austria as an integrated state on the same level as Saxony subservient to the Prussian ideas of the German state. Remember that Austria joined (with force applied) Germany in the late 1930s so the idea of Austria being German was quite strong in a significant portion of the Austrian people.
Pan-germanizm made quite a distinction on what lands are german and what are not. Austria (and Bohemia) were considered a part of this. Some of Switzerland was considered a part of it, rarely Benelux was considered as part of it. I would argue that all this wouldn't create multi-national empire, bcs the entire idea of pan-germanizm is based on the premise that germans create 1 nation.
If Denmark had offered to join Germany, Prussia would have been very happy to agree. Since the idea of "Germany" was amorphous and rapidly evolving and being built one piece at a time, I would argue that Prussia had a big incentive to convince or force as many peoples into the new tent as early as possible to cement the future nation-state's territories and power.
I am rather clueless on pan-germanic stance on Denmark. Also if Denmark asked to join Germany on the same conditions as all other germanic states, I would assume that danes would join 'germans' not as separate nation joining multi-national empire similar to Habsburg Empire, but as germans joining other germans.
By WWI, Germany was a solid idea, a complete nation. It would be simpler to create a constellation of puppets and protectorates to defend and feed German heartlands.
Once again i think by the end of 1st half of 19th century I think Germany was pretty solid idea already. I heard there was little effort to annex new land that didn't already belong to 'german sphere'. Also by WW1 Germany wasn't de facto complete. After WW1 Germany and Austria wonted to unite. As a matter of fact democratic anschluss would have huge chance to win, as majority of austrian society supported it, but not that many austrians wonted to join Hitler's Germany.
Concerning Russia being a multi-national empire, I meant that in the sense that the Russian state has never reconciled the idea of popular sovereignty with the idea of what Russia is itself. All the European powers had to create a liberal constitution as a result of the 19th-century revolutions and movements, at least in theory, to give some power to the people, and reduce the clout of the monarch. Russia has never had to do this, it has never democratized since the beginning of the czars, except for very brief very fleeting moments like the few months during the October Revolution before the Soviets took full control or during the early 90s. The Soviet period itself is a very-anti democratic period that hides its authoritarian nature with egalitarian words. And even then, in the latter example, the democratic period was utterly compromised and corrupted by the oligarchies and preexisting aristocratic/elite power structures. You can see Russia's constant weakness as a unifying institution of the nation-state in the Chechen wars in the 90s. There are large chunks of territory that would fly away from Moscow if centralized power was too relaxed and diluted.
I don't consider Russia multi-national empire for similar reasons I don't consider Germany as one. They also had their pan-slavic idea, where evry slav was supposed to join 1 giant slavic empire. Unlike germans tho, they were much less successful.
Sorry about misinterpreting your comment about Austria!
No problem, It's my fault that I sometimes forget to clarify something
 

watschu99

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Can you do different state specific actions? For example in the picture with Prussia and Poland you can see polish secession in Posen and Danzig. Could you acquiese the movement in Posen and hand it over to Poland and Crush them in Danzig, or can you only do one action for the entire movement?
 

Te. Kenzo

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Hi, what is the cultural composition of Corsica in this game? I imagine a "Corse" culture is not going to be there, especially if V3 inherit the same cultural philosophy of the previous game. But it is 100% French? In my opinion if it so it's not right, also because we need to undestand if culture mean "State-Nation belonging" or a more general "Cultural Koiné", because probably in a game is difficult to define this, but for example Italian culture is more extended of than the borders of the Italian Nation-State and being part of the Italian Culture doesn't mean automatically that you are going to be part or you want to be part of the Italian Nation-State (Just see San Marino or the Italian Switzerland). Said so, Corsica being 100% French seems somewhat "Wrong", not only because the Island have an ancient tradition of desire for indipendence, but because in these games alter-history is possible. The fact that historically Italy expansionism was actued only toward the eastern borders of the nations doesn't mean that Corsica was out of the views of someone about Italian unification, the only reason that this direction of expansion was not supported was basically for the lack of political, diplomatic opportunity and economic desire and the fact that more land with a more active pan-italian nationalism were to be taken in the east. This adding the fact that linguistically the Corsican language is perfectly understandable by Italians and viceversa and the fact that cultural and social ties still exist for geographical vicinity. Napoleonic events usually made us forget that Corsica was not a part of France just just some decade before this game start. So if the Corse culture is not present in the game, I think that Corsica should be rapresented with an high percentage of "North Italian" culture and maybe a little bit of "South Italian" in the south of the Island to rapresent the link with the near Sardinia (that to be honest, deserve also it's own culture). Off course it should mean also a tag for Corsica, because to really do justice to the historical depiction of the island, you don't have only to give it a proper culture only for the sake of a "Pan-Italian" alter-history but especially for an "Indipendence path" that probably was even more strong. Basically depicting Corsica as 100% French is like depicting South Tyrol as 100% Italian after 1918. In other games seems that you are adding "linguistic traits" I think they could be useful also for Pops in these games.

P.S: I'm also curious about how you managed to rapresent both a strong Swiss identity and the linguistic differences in a way that can be satisfactory. Surely everything could be better than just rapresent it a monolithic swiss.
 
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Testeria

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Hi, what is the cultural composition of Corsica in this game? I imagine a "Corse" culture is not going to be there, especially if V3 inherit the same cultural philosophy of the previous game. But it is 100% French? In my opinion if it so it's not right, also because we need to undestand if culture mean "State-Nation belonging" or a more general "Cultural Koiné", because probably in a game is difficult to define this, but for example Italian culture is more extended of than the borders of the Italian Nation-State and being part of the Italian Culture doesn't mean automatically that you are going to be part or you want to be part of the Italian Nation-State (Just see San Marino or the Italian Switzerland). Said so, Corsica being 100% French seems somewhat "Wrong", not only because the Island have an ancient tradition of desire for indipendence, but because in these games alter-history is possible. The fact that historically Italy expansionism was actued only toward the eastern borders of the nations doesn't mean that Corsica was out of the views of someone about Italian unification, the only reason that this direction of expansion was not supported was basically for the lack of political, diplomatic opportunity and economic desire and the fact that more land with a more active pan-italian nationalism were to be taken in the east. This adding the fact that linguistically the Corsican language is perfectly understandable by Italians and viceversa and the fact that cultural and social ties still exist for geographical vicinity. Napoleonic events usually made us forget that Corsica was not a part of France just just some decade before this game start. So if the Corse culture is not present in the game, I think that Corsica should be rapresented with an high percentage of "North Italian" culture and maybe a little bit of "South Italian" in the south of the Island to rapresent the link with the near Sardinia (that to be honest, deserve also it's own culture). Off course it should mean also a tag for Corsica, because to really do justice to the historical depiction of the island, you don't have only to give it a proper culture only for the sake of a "Pan-Italian" alter-history but especially for an "Indipendence path" that probably was even more strong. Basically depicting Corsica as 100% French is like depicting South Tyrol as 100% Italian after 1918. In other games seems that you are adding "linguistic traits" I think they could be useful also for Pops in these games.

P.S: I'm also curious about how you managed to rapresent both a strong Swiss identity and the linguistic differences in a way that can be satisfactory. Surely everything could be better than just rapresent it a monolithic swiss.

When the game begins half of France is not even speaking the french language. But I do not believe this kind of thing to be present in the VIC game - PDX games are extremely ahistorical in this context, so for example we have "polish" culture and language in the VIII century in CK3.
 
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luxfelix

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Hi, what is the cultural composition of Corsica in this game? I imagine a "Corse" culture is not going to be there, especially if V3 inherit the same cultural philosophy of the previous game. But it is 100% French? In my opinion if it so it's not right, also because we need to undestand if culture mean "State-Nation belonging" or a more general "Cultural Koiné", because probably in a game is difficult to define this, but for example Italian culture is more extended of than the borders of the Italian Nation-State and being part of the Italian Culture doesn't mean automatically that you are going to be part or you want to be part of the Italian Nation-State (Just see San Marino or the Italian Switzerland). Said so, Corsica being 100% French seems somewhat "Wrong", not only because the Island have an ancient tradition of desire for indipendence, but because in these games alter-history is possible. The fact that historically Italy expansionism was actued only toward the eastern borders of the nations doesn't mean that Corsica was out of the views of someone about Italian unification, the only reason that this direction of expansion was not supported was basically for the lack of political, diplomatic opportunity and economic desire and the fact that more land with a more active pan-italian nationalism were to be taken in the east. This adding the fact that linguistically the Corsican language is perfectly understandable by Italians and viceversa and the fact that cultural and social ties still exist for geographical vicinity. Napoleonic events usually made us forget that Corsica was not a part of France just just some decade before this game start. So if the Corse culture is not present in the game, I think that Corsica should be rapresented with an high percentage of "North Italian" culture and maybe a little bit of "South Italian" in the south of the Island to rapresent the link with the near Sardinia (that to be honest, deserve also it's own culture). Off course it should mean also a tag for Corsica, because to really do justice to the historical depiction of the island, you don't have only to give it a proper culture only for the sake of a "Pan-Italian" alter-history but especially for an "Indipendence path" that probably was even more strong. Basically depicting Corsica as 100% French is like depicting South Tyrol as 100% Italian after 1918. In other games seems that you are adding "linguistic traits" I think they could be useful also for Pops in these games.

P.S: I'm also curious about how you managed to rapresent both a strong Swiss identity and the linguistic differences in a way that can be satisfactory. Surely everything could be better than just rapresent it a monolithic swiss.

Will Corsica be excluded from French home land at least?
 

Papar

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Will Corsica be excluded from French home land at least?
According to earlier DDs 'homeland' is determined on basis on what a people of particular culture perceives to be their homeland, so by that principle i'm pretty sure that Corsica will be both french and italian homeland
 
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mPne

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Jun 9, 2021
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it be so good if ye do the vistula and curonian lagoon and koningsberg well placed
map, or rather miniature, needs work both in orography and hydrography and in doing well the ends of islands and continents and in placing well cities (and lessening their size overwhelming the land and nearing or feeling other cities and towns)