Caucasian War: Caucasus in Victoria 3

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It is relatively pointless to argue about specific numbers. Yes, according to today's assessment it was a genocide and yes, other countries have done it too. And yes, the victims weren't angels.

For the game it is only interesting to what extent something like this is implemented in the game. The developers have to decide that themselves. It just shouldn't be that the people don't show up in the game at all. And theoretically, the events must also appear in some form, because otherwise it also falsifies the historical picture. If you don't want to have manual eviction, a decision in the form of an event would be good. Whereupon the Ottoman Empire also gets a decision triggered, whether and to what extent to allow it to accept the Circassians.
 
I'll give you a hint with a map of cossack population distribution:
1920px-%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2.jpg

Can you see a pattern?
Yes?
 
...and sacrificed newborns to Great Satan. Seriously, noone even considered using people in scientific experiments during Caucasus War period.Also, you seem to downplaythe actions of Ottoman Empire, who demanded to relocate Circassians and sent emissaries to various auls, preaching how relocating to Turkey would be better than staying under Imperial Russia rule.
I am not downplaying what Turkey did, I literally quoted a person saying that Turkish migrant camps were worse than being sent to Siberia.

As for the rest, here is a direct quote from a contemporary individual, the quote itself taken from a book in Circassia:
"Zass, near his encampment, on top of a specially perpered small hil, fixed Circassian heads on top of lances, whith their beards flying in the air. It was very disturbing to see this scene. One day, Zass agreed to remove the heads from the lances after a request of a guest lady. We were also his guests at the time. When I entered the study room of the general, I was struck by a strong, disgusting smell. Smilling, Zass told us that there wer boxes in which the heads were placed under his bed. Then he pulled a big box in which there were a couple big eyed, horribly looking heads. I asked them why he keeps them there. He replied: "I boil them, clean them and send them to my professor driends in Berlin to study anatomy""
So at least one notable Russian general did indeed consider using circassian bodies for expiriments.

Anyways, I wont be replying to this forum again, I have already commited enough damage to this forum. Just google the events if you dont believe me no need to take my word for it. The wikipedia article on the matter is a good place to start and it has a lot of sources which you can go to for further reading on the matter.

One last edit: I am not trying to demonise the Russians, nor do I believe that the Circassians did nothing wrong and where all just innocent angels. After all a group of people being oppressed doesnt mean they were better people, just that they were opressed. However both from a gameplay and a flavour standpoint it was something that yes, did factually happen and that should be included in the game, if not for any other reason, for the reason of historical accuracy. Devs could even implement ways to stop it or make it worse or whatever, it could give the player a choice on the matter. I know I am sounding like whiny bitch "omg looooook they had it sooo bad the russian are evil coloniseeeeers 1!1!1!" but I dont want to pass moral judgement with these comments. (And I obviously dont believe that "Russians" or any other people group is responsible for the crimes of some soldiers 200 years ago). I just want an event that did factually happen to at least have a possibility of happening in a historical game. As much as we like to pretend war crimes werent a part of history, they were, and they were very intertwined with other historicall events which the game does cover, like population distribution, economy, unrest factors, jingoism and nationalism, crime etc.
 
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Anyways, I wont be replying to this forum again, I have already commited enough damage to this forum.

This is okay. We all get feisty about things we care about and such.

What matters is that we want this game, Victoria 3, to be immersive and fun, and feature things that we are interested in. Don't leave just because of a few replies you think are bad or damaging. Happens to the best of us, but we just move on, try again and become better :)

You shouldn't leave and you should participate as long as you feel interested about it.
 
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t's important to read about Georgian Military Road too as it was the main and really one of few routes through the mountains; it was strategic to the whole war effort.
UPDATE: after reading up a bit more I must correct that Russian Empire did have a full control over it, which was strategic to dividing Caucasian war into two parts.


I found an image that illustrates it well why it was important - basically it went along the Terek among high mountains and, outside of near-sea connection, it is the only one way from South Caucasus to North Caucasus, even up to this day it is the only major highway:

1628408104352.png
 
In Victoria 2 there was one heavily overlooked region that was in anticolonial war and struggle, with a brutal half-a-century long war being conducted there against the native population.
That region is Caucasus.

What is Caucasus?

Caucasus is a region that often is commonly overlooked or looked up only for the Great Armenia memes.

Caucasus isn't just Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan either as quite a few people unacquintanced with the subject may think. It's also a lot of smaller nations that lie not just on Southern side of Caucasian mountains, as the today independent states are, but also a lot of North Caucasian nations - Chechens, Osetians, Avars, Dagestanis, Cercessians and others (and they are divided into many sub-ethnic groups too). Prior to XIX century, these lands weren't populated by Russians at all... until the Russian Empire started to annex Caucasus and the Caucasian War happened.

What is the Caucasian War?

Caucasian War is a group of conflicts tied to the Russian Imperial expansion into Caucasus and annexation of the subjects it controlled. During nearly all it's duration it faced insurrections, local conflicts. An oppression against the natives occured and, in the final stages of the war, an ugly ethnic cleansing.

The war started with establishing control over things which Victoria 3 would define as Unrecognized States - different smaller Caucasian states, where Russian Empire became their overlord. It is similar to what happened in another ethnically diverse and heavily fractured region, India. The Russian Empire then proceeded to take control of this region more directly. In 1801 was annexed the main Georgian state, Kingdom of Kartli-Kaheti. The other annexations of smaller realms then followed.

The establishment of the Imperial Rule, however, was met negatively by the native population. Unlike in the case of India or Georgia, where many local feudal lords were integrated in the systems of colonial rule, it didn't happen to other Caucasian nations, primarily the North Caucasus. This escalated... and the religious and feudal elites supported the anti-colonial war against the Russian Empire.

The campaigns of the Caucasian War were brutal. Many Russian Intelligentsia took part in it as well because the dekabrists were forced to serve in Caucasus; quite a few other reknown Russian writers took part in it (directly or were in Caucasus at the time) - Mikhail Lermontov, Alexandr Griboyedov and Leo Tolstoy; Pushkin was writing about the Caucasian War as well, making it an important public affair. The Caucasian War saw participation of Polish fighters, who were inspired by the anti-colonial struggle and united in desire to end the Russian Empire.

Caucasian War in 1836

1836 starts right during the 2nd period of the war, right before Imam Shamil started to organize his actions and "his" period of this war. Imam Shamil is the most reknown leader of this war and one who had an immense influence on the following history of the Caucasus. It's the most important part of the Caucasian War and it's subconflict, the Murid War, that had the lasting impact on the region. The year 1836 presents many opportunities for this war and allows some divergence in outcomes, as well as making the player pay attention.

How do I suggest to model this conflict in Victoria 3 and why do I think it would work out better than in Victoria II?

Right now, from few small glimpses into the teasers, we know that Victoria 3 has new special mechanics to represent not "civilized" nations - Unrecognized States and Decentralized States.

In my humble opinion, the best way to represent this is to represent the Caucasian States as the Decentralized States that are actively hostile to the attempts of colonization by the Russian Empire. They require a number of military action to be performed, but at the same time they will conduct warfare during the occupations or have "raids" performed on them. Perhaps a minor form of partisan conflict will be implemented to represent it (similar to what happened in Americas, African colonies including the British expeditions in South Africa, etc) which could also perfectly work for the representation of the Caucasian resistance.

Of course, North Caucasian societies weren't as tribal as Amazonian ones or some African ones and were certainly more developed. They were in fact sufficiently centralized. However, such form of representation as a territory that should be "properly colonized" rather than taken in a single short war could be a far better representation for them. To amend their status, the North Caucasian tags could get a special condition for getting Recognized and transferring from getting Decentralized to, well, Normal. It is all assuming that the colonization of the Unrecognized states happens as a result of short wars. Also, have you been in Caucasus and seen how many hardly accessible mountains are there? With hostile natives it's not easier than with malaria.

Why Caucasus region is important?

Because Caucasus holds the strategic defense for the Russian Empire from the South.
Caucasus is instrumental in Russian access to Persia; the Central Asian route can't really substitute it.
A lot of local historical trade routes passed through Caucasus.
And of course, it is a region that is quite contested by Turkey, Russia and Iran. It has a major geopolitical value regionally, controlling the mountains and influence there would mean having an edge over the other local players.

Why it is important to represent Caucasus region?

Because the history of Caucasus is sadly often forgotten by the common public. It's often neglected as the colonial expansion of Russia.

After all, we can clearly see the coloniasm (in XIX century) portrayed as American expansion to the West and fighting Natives, African colonization, Oceania colonization and the subjugation of the Unrecognized States (in new Victoria 3 terms) by the Recognized States and European nations. Even Central Asia is seen as a colonization and represented as such in Victoria II.

However, Russian conquest of Caucasus isn't perceived as such.

Russian society of the XIX century largely percepted it as the colonial war and the colonization of the Caucasus. As noted above, intelligentsia and the famous writers wrote about it as such. It doesn't mean that they saw it as unjustified, as XIX century didn't have the negative attitude to the colonialism yet, and even today the historians in Russia consider it to be justified (akin to the American expansion to the West against Natives). The Caucasian War in essence was the colonial conflict and aimed to subjugate the local nations; it was a colonial conflict and perceived as such in XIX century; it was a bloody war in 1800s-1860s.

Victoria 3 will do it's best to represent the colonization against the Natives and it won't shy away from the dark pages from history. However, while countless historians in Youtube and other popular platforms talk about coloniation in America, Africa and in particular colonization against the Natives in USA, absolute majority of them neglect to mention Caucasus at all, which was in most ways the same conquest and colonization... and ironically it ended in similar way, with an ethnic cleansing of natives by forcing them to relocate to Kuban' and Anatolia away from homes.

It's a quite important story. It made a big point for Russia, tied it's hands in the terms of colonial expansions (as it was represented in Victoria 3 to be not tied to such things which wasn't true) that had a strategic meaning (no rush to Africa, Central Asia or Far East to paint Japan or China before everyone) and made it want to retain control over the region firmly against the enemies - Persia and Ottoman Empire.

It's because of this I would love to hope that @Wizzington and his team are going to do justice to Caucasus and represent it no worse than American Natives, making the principal decision to represent Caucasusian anticolonial struggles. It may be abstracted at first, with certain generalizations, but the core decision about representing it should be made.

About few minor details and Unrecognized Nations

One of most interesting ones that tend to be overlooked are in Caucasus - Megrelia, Abkhazia and Svaneti were annexed around 1860s. They weren't the autonomies like Finland; in fact, they were Unrecognized States and Protectorates of the Russian Empire. In general terms they had a function similar to the Indian dependancies of the British crown. And unlike the rest of Georgia and Armenia with Azerbaijan, these principalities remained as protectorates. It was partially related to the unrest in Caucasus and the Caucasian war - the stability of the sea regions was seen as crucial and Russian Empire delayed annexation in order to buy loyalty and stability from locals.

In the context of the larger colonization of Caucasus, representing these protectorates could further remind us of the colonial nature of the Russian expansion in Caucasus and give more possibilities for the Caucasian states that are still not absorbed in 1836 to attempt to win the anticolonial struggles - most likely with the foreign help of course, historically Crimean War came close to becoming such an event but Russian didn't lose war in Caucasus.

Conclusion

A proper representation of colonialism and anticolonial struggles in XIX century is impossible without representing Caucasus.
In Russian culture, the wars in Caucasus and it's subjugation left a lasting impact on the culture and public perception of XIX century.
It is no less important settling the faraway Oceania provinces, Africa, and other places.
It's not just a minor region that can be added with modes, it is a core part of the Russian expansion history and Middle East influence, including the next influence on Ottomans and Persia.
I'd love if they portrayed huge migration of Circassian refugees into Ottoman Empire, they played a huge role in its history.
 
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I'd love if they portrayed huge migration of Circassian refugees into Ottoman Empire, they played a huge role in its history.

I am rather clueless about their role in Ottoman Empire, can you tell more about it?

For now we don't even know if we will have Circassians and others or "North Caucasian" :(
 
I am rather clueless about their role in Ottoman Empire, can you tell more about it?

For now we don't even know if we will have Circassians and others or "North Caucasian" :(
Became part of military, settled near borders to strenghthen them, fought in Ottoman wars... Basically Circassians survived as a nation in Ottoman territories, rn there is couple of millions of them in Turkey. As Ottoman Empire I would like to cause migration of many serbs, bulgars and greeks from Balkans to russia and replace them with Circassians, Tatars, Azeris and Jews escaping from russia.
 
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Became part of military, settled near borders to strenghthen them, fought in Ottoman wars... Basically Circassians survived as a nation in Ottoman territories, rn there is couple of millions of them in Turkey. As Ottoman Empire I would like to cause migration of many serbs, bulgars and greeks from Balkans to russia and replace them with Circassians, Tatars, Azeris and Jews escaping from russia.

While it is downvoted and probably not liked by some (for understandable reasons) there actually are interesting precedents:
1) Bessarabian Bulgarians
2) Slavo-Serbia and New Serbia

I do think that it belongs to Balkan Megathread however.

I hoped you would actually tell more about how Circassians affected Ottoman Empire and Anatolia socially and politically.

After all, focus in this thread is on Caucasus and, predominantly, Northern Caucasus.
 
While it is downvoted and probably not liked by some (for understandable reasons) there actually are interesting precedents:
1) Bessarabian Bulgarians
2) Slavo-Serbia and New Serbia

I do think that it belongs to Balkan Megathread however.

I hoped you would actually tell more about how Circassians affected Ottoman Empire and Anatolia socially and politically.

After all, focus in this thread is on Caucasus and, predominantly, Northern Caucasus.
I don't think that downvote is in any way important :) what is important that such pattern (of replacing population) was used by russia for multiple times against Muslim minorities: especially Tatars and Circassians (and other Caucasian nations).
I didin't explain more bcz don't exactly know what You need. There are entire books about Circassians in Ottoman Empire. One such is here: https://www.amazon.com/Circassians-Turkey-Violence-Nationalism-Ottomans/dp/1788314476
It can be summed up as mostly serving in military, as Circassians were extremely brave warriors. Their role wasn't just positive though - some of Circassian bashibazouks radicalized after suffering from russian genocide committed atrocities against orthodox population of the Empire, making it easier for russia to attack it (1877 war)
 
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Became part of military, settled near borders to strenghthen them, fought in Ottoman wars... Basically Circassians survived as a nation in Ottoman territories, rn there is couple of millions of them in Turkey. As Ottoman Empire I would like to cause migration of many serbs, bulgars and greeks from Balkans to russia and replace them with Circassians, Tatars, Azeris and Jews escaping from russia.
Genuine question: Why would Greeks and Serbs flee to Russia when they have independent culturally similar nations nearby?
 
Genuine question: Why would Greeks and Serbs flee to Russia when they have independent culturally similar nations nearby?
There were no such countries. In addition, two factors took hold: the wars between Russia and the Ottoman Empire were mostly fought on the Omani terretorium. Towards the end of the war, many people went to Russia with the tsarist troops for fear of revenge. Plus, Russia simply offered the same opportunities as the US, if you were lucky enough to get the land.
 
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Genuine question: Why would Greeks and Serbs flee to Russia when they have independent culturally similar nations nearby?
I think many of them would prefer to live in orthodox, culturally similar country than under Ottoman rule. What other culturally similar nations You mean? (I meant after reconquering kingdom of Greece and principality of serbia as Ottomans).
I always thought such exchange of culturally and religioysly affiliated people between russia and Ottomans would do good to everyone interested and help avoid wars and genocides (maybe)
 
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Now, of course, you have to say that it was not mass migration, but refugee movements and targeted settlements. There were uprisings in the Ottoman Empire. Russia then interfered. When the Russian army advanced, the local Christian population made a pact with the Russians. But many of these wars did not end with great terretorial changes. Which for Bulgarians who fought for the Russians at the end of the war meant a mortal danger.

These people were settled in "New Russia" or in the Caucasus. The descendants still live in Russia or Ukraine today. Most of the time there is only the last name a sign of it. The language is no longer spoken.


And even when countries like Romania or Greece emerged, it was less rational for a Bugaren to flee to Greece than to Russia. Greece didn't offer that many options.


For the game, however, it is relatively easy to simulate. Possibilities + distance + cultural proximity. Migration is not the same as flight.
 
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You have to see the whole thing from several points of view. The peoples living on the border between two empires are inevitably under the influence of one of the empires. Like the Crimean Tatars, the Circassians were economically tied to the Ottoman Empire. Which in the situation meant the delivery of slaves to Istanbul. Which, to say the least, did not make them particularly popular and was used as a justification for carrying out ethnic purges later.

When the Russians conquered the territories, it was in the Age of Enlightenment. That meant a technical approach to the conquest: settlement of loyal populations and deportation of the non-loyal peoples. Some of the settlers also came from the Balkans and brought their hatred with them. Both empires and the British distributed weapons to the useful groups and supported them financially.

Conversely, the Muslim curse movements radicalized the situation in the Ottoman Empire. The refugees often only had the army as an option and wanted revenge again.

The spiral can be observed right into the Russian civil war.
 
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Since we do know quite a bit about war, we can definitely tell that Caucasian war can be implemented in Victoria 3.

The valid complaints of old system that you can't fight back are now not as important - you will be able to fight back! The logistics is there, warfare assymetry is well-presented in DDs and so on.

The issue, however, is that so far we DID not see any Caucasian states - either vassals or the rebellious mountain people.

I believe that they are no less important that Boer Republics, African states or American Natives. They don't need to be playable (as far as I recall many won't be playable at start)... but they should be represented.

Cheers and hope to see Caucasus in the game :)
 
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