EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of September 2017

[SarumanTheWise9]

WTH!!! Pi, my tribe qahtan is not on the map !!!!. but my relative dawasir are . Good changes

 

[grand_Turk]

Any way to represent the Islamic denial of greek philosophy and Western technolog?

I don't know if you're sneakingly trying to provoke a dispute here but one thing I understand is you're good at concealing things. Here's an example of how muslims denied greek philosophy and technology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom
Muslims back then were not behind western tech to follow it up. Besides, they made a consistent endeavour for science when nobody else did.

There was a death penalty for owning a printing press in the Ottoman Empire in the 1550s.

Care to inform us of this discovery by giving sources maybe?

Observatories were also torn down in the centuries after the Islamic Golden Age. Maybe it can be addressed by a slow institution spread.

Just a few weeks after dev diary about Ulugh Beg. Anyway, you're referring to Takiyuddin's observatory I presume. Takiyuddin's observatory wasn't demolished because it was an observatory. I can tell behind the scenes for those graciously fond of history. Palace politics was one of the reasons for example...

 

[Chamboozer]

The opposition mysticism vs legalism is wrong too. Imam Malik (r) said,

Or, as the Ottoman historian Mustafa Naima (d. 1716) wrote in his famous history of the seventeenth century when introducing the Kadızadeli movement, "Let it be known that the conflict and violence between those who set out on the path of Sufism and the most outspoken Ulama is quite old."

You're right that there was not always, or even usually, an outright conflict between Sufism and legalistic Islam, indeed many of the foremost members of the Ulama were often Sufis themselves. However, these did represent two different ways of practicing the religion, and their mutual antagonism sparked debate and sometimes violence many times during the period covered by this game. Not everyone was tolerant of one another's practices, and not everyone's practices were mutually compatible.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The way I understand it, piety no longer represents how pious you are, but the type of piety you are.

This is exactly the idea

 

[SarumanTheWise9]

I don't know if you're sneakingly trying to provoke a dispute here but one thing I understand is you're good at concealing things. Here's an example of how muslims denied greek philosophy and technology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom
Muslims back then were not behind western tech to follow it up. Besides, they made a consistent endeavour for science when nobody else did.


Care to inform us of this discovery by giving sources maybe?


Just a few weeks after dev diary about Ulugh Beg. Anyway, you're referring to Takiyuddin's observatory I presume. Takiyuddin's observatory wasn't demolished because it was an observatory. I can tell behind the scenes for those graciously fond of history. Palace politics was one of the reasons for example...

Even-though i am muslim, i have never really understood the discussion about Islamic golden age. People always turn it into black and white. Either muslims were the most evil savages of the medieval times and ''stole'' the Greek books and added nothing to it, or they were the tolerant and pro science and ''invented'' algebra and the Arabic numerals .

 

[FleetingRain]

Yazidi and Druze are different religions altogether, so they shouldn't be added to Islam for sure

The Zikri branch of mysticism also goes beyond anything represented in the game, since as far as I'm aware they weren't much of a political influence (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdavia#Zikri_Mahdavis)

Problem is that Yazidi and Druze are treated as Muslim heresies in CK2/EU4, so I'd expect the devs to throw a bone at them. And thanks for the link.

 

[Koskenbleu]

Even-though i am muslim, i have never really understood the discussion about Islamic golden age. People always turn it into black and white. Either muslims were the most evil savages of the medieval times and ''stole'' the Greek books and added nothing to it, or they were the tolerant and pro science and ''invented'' algebra and the Arabic numerals .

The truth is always found somewhere in the "middle", I think it's just a case where people who feel something is being attacked want to point out different side of the spectrum, thus contributing to the polarization if the dialogue.

 

[VoodooEconomist]

Problem is that Yazidi and Druze are treated as Muslim heresies in CK2/EU4, so I'd expect the devs to throw a bone at them. And thanks for the link.

Yes, it would b great if it got changed in CK2 too, I know what you meant. But considering that CK2 is played at a more "personal" level due to character mechanics, while EU4 is about nations I see why both of those religions weren't a priority for developers.

 

[Bayes]

I am 200% impressed with this. I totally didn't expect this revamp to Islam. Now buff Buddhism pls

Also, wouldn't this be an opportunity to add those CK2 Converter heresies? Yazidi, Zikri, Druze etc. Or they wouldn't fit in the School flavor?

Buddhism already got a major buff, take a look! I cant remember when it was patched but they removed the penalties from too high/low karma and you now gain karma from converting. Especially vajrayana can be quite potent now, its one of the better religions for missionary strength and has alot of bonuses from decisions.

 

[saegoto]

there is more grain in sweden than france

 

[Roxas15]

Nice, more reasons to convert to islam. 2 new buffs in addition to the current modifiers. will we see buffs for the other religions too? i mean as a muslim u got 3 huge buffs, either high or low piety + ur school now and + the applied patron mechanic. what do u have as a protestant? 3 weak buffs which u can choose.

 

[CheesySnake]

The truth is always found somewhere in the "middle", I think it's just a case where people who feel something is being attacked want to point out different side of the spectrum, thus contributing to the polarization if the dialogue.

I find this really nicely describes the majority of arguments over the internet. I wonder how much the anonymisation a forum or social media (to a point) provides contributes to this, compared with having the same discussion face-to-face.

 

[TheDungen]

I don't know if you're sneakingly trying to provoke a dispute here but one thing I understand is you're good at concealing things. Here's an example of how muslims denied greek philosophy and technology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Wisdom
Muslims back then were not behind western tech to follow it up. Besides, they made a consistent endeavour for science when nobody else did.

That was destroyed in 1258 EU4 begins in 1444 that's almost 200 years later. And even then the muslim schoars had abandoned logic after the mystic Al-Ghazali who publiched a work called Tahāfut al-Falāsifa, The Incoherence of the Philosophers, in the 11th century. The dominant thought shcool became Ash'ari.
In 1444 Islam is very different from the religion who built the house of wisdom.

there is more grain in sweden than france

There's also more iron in England than in all of Scandinavia combined. Småland should probably have livestock too they used to smuggle it over the border and sell it in Denmark because the Danes paid better.

 

[Koskenbleu]

I find this really nicely describes the majority of arguments over the internet. I wonder how much the anonymisation a forum or social media (to a point) provides contributes to this, compared with having the same discussion face-to-face.

I'm sure it does. When you're given the anonymity to express yourself without the fear of a backslash in your social environment, it sure might feel more cathartic to express strong opinions instead of well adjusted, balanced thoughts. Also what does not help at all in platforms like Twitter for example, is the short amount of space you're given to make your statement.

 

[Chamboozer]

And even then the muslim schoars had abandoned logic after the mystic Al-Ghazali who publiched a work called Tahāfut al-Falāsifa, The Incoherence of the Philosophers in the 11th century.

No, this is a myth. First of all, Al-Ghazali wasn't opposed to logic, quite the opposite. But in addition to that:

Hostility to logic was a minority view in scholarly circles throughout this period [1500-1800]. However, many of the scholars regularly invoked earlier authorities in support of their position. It is therefore questionable whether hostility to logic was ever a predominant view amongst Sunni scholars, at least between the endorsement of the discipline by Abu Hamid al-Ghazali (d. 1111) and the rise of the Salafiyya in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

El-Rouhayeb, Khaled. “Sunni Muslim Scholars on the Status of Logic, 1500-1800.” Islamic Law and Society 11 (2004): 215.

The most famous conservative Ottoman scholar of the 16th century, Mehmed Birgivi...

...himself explicitly condoned the study of logic, dialectic, rational theology (kalam), mathematics and astronomy.

And as a 17th century commentator on his work wrote:

It [logic] is among the most noble of the divine and spiritual sciences, and some wise men have made it the chief of the rational sciences, and some religious scholars have made it an individual duty [on each and every Muslim] since on it depends knowing the necessary existent ... In sum, logic is a science of dazzling demonstration like the sun that is not hidden anywhere. No one denies its good qualities except those who are unable to know realities and see subtleties.

El-Rouhayeb, Khaled. ‘The Myth of the “Triumph of Fanaticism” in the Seventeenth-Century Ottoman Empire.” Die Welt des Islams 48 (2008): 199-200.

 

[seriousgigi]

Any way to represent the Islamic denial of greek philosophy and Western technolog? There was a death penalty for owning a printing press in the Ottoman Empire in the 1550s. Observatories were also torn down in the centuries after the Islamic Golden Age. Maybe it can be addressed by a slow institution spread.

why don't you talk about renassaince in arabian deserts before talking about printing press in majestic ottoman empire

 

[TheDungen]

No, this is a myth. First of all, Al-Ghazali wasn't opposed to logic, quite the opposite. But in addition to that:



El-Rouhayeb, Khaled. “Sunni Muslim Scholars on the Status of Logic, 1500-1800.” Islamic Law and Society 11 (2004): 215.

The most famous conservative Ottoman scholar of the 16th century, Mehmed Birgivi...



And as 17th century commentator on his work wrote:



El-Rouhayeb, Khaled. ‘The Myth of the “Triumph of Fanaticism” in the Seventeenth-Century Ottoman Empire.” Die Welt des Islams 48 (2008): 199-200.

And yet scientific research in the islamic world died out after that. Well in the western islamic world at any rate.

 

[CaptainPolyp]

There's also more iron in England than in all of Scandinavia combined. Småland should probably have livestock too they used to smuggle it over the border and sell it in Denmark because the Danes paid better.

I guess Norway (or other scandinavian tag holding Norway's provinces) will still get the event in which metals are discovered in a few provinces (this gives iron, copper, silver if I'm not mistaken).

 

[seriousgigi]

And yet scientific research in the islamic world died out after that. Well in the western islamic world at any rate.

i guess it died because islamic countries weren't that rich at those times. without money you can't research anything. (still same) ofc religious bigotry was one of the reasons though.

 

[dankmomos]

is this payed fetures are part of the free update ?