So, it seems the supply system is going to be changed. Opinions?

[Sinbuster]

I'm a fan of the rail system TRP has. Having said that, I feel like modders can only do so much with a flawed system. The way islands are supplied basically circumvents blockades. The War in the Atlantic isn't remotely represented. Large armies would often come to an inexplicable halt, and related concepts, like building infrastructure, were gamey a lot of the time. On top of all that, it was hard to understand where the hang ups were in the logistical chain. The armchair logisticians/crazies among us would likely prefer a system where they can find and resolve problems as they develop, but they, and we, need a system that is more transparent and understandable. I think that's what Johan meant by his comments, though take that for what's it's worth.

 

[civlibprof]

I think the question about supply comes down to infrastructure, and infrastructure needs to be retooled. Infrastructure needs to be retooled because it is a modifier for too many aspects of the game. IIRC infrastructure modifies, troop speed, supply throughput, resource gathering*, static defense ability*, IC production*, measure of strategic bombing*. The items marked with * indicate a malus due to strategic bombing. I think to get supply to work infrastructure needs to be divided into two categories, 1) transportation infrastructure and 2) production infrastructure once this is done I think the developers will find creating a supply system based on transportation infrastructure much easier than having to worry about all these other things. The static defenses AA, land coastal forts, air and naval bases should not be part of the infrastructure system. As we learned in the AIR DD bombers can focus on different targets in a province; front line troops, transportation, production, or static defenses. I hope the developers will go in this direction where a little more categorization will create a more user friendly system.

 

[Big Nev]

But the HoI III supply system was (is) simple.

It's also quite elegant.

It's just not very good at dealing with very large areas/distances.

My biggest gripe was typified by Karachi being supplied from Dalian and then switching to Vladivistok!

It proved to be impossible to maintain anything in Karachi due to the "quirks" of the system.

An even worse situation arises when Japan captures Veracruz. Congratulations, your supply base is now on the wrong bloody ocean.

Then there's the parallel to front effect where you move one province and your entire army goes OOS for a week or more and, of course, the linking of beach-heads screws-you-up effect.

I don't know what PDS has in mind, but I sincerely want:-

Supply convoys to be on the map so I, or the AI, can both escort them properly and attack them in "proper" battles.

I want units to draw their supplies from somewhere closer than at present. Somewhere in the same time zone would be nice.

If that means forward dumps for each group, army or corps, so be it.

I'd also like to see the amount of supply used during action go up drastically so you need to build-up stocks before launching an offensive. I realise this may become exploitable by players building hugely unrealistic supply dumps prior to Barbarossa (for example) but they will be discoverable & they will be destroyable. Southern England was, virtually, one big supply dump prior to Overlord but, for various reasons, Germany never tried to bomb them.

If they had, it would be unlikely that the fires could have been put out and huge quantities of stores could have been destroyed for very little effort. This would have slowed the Allied advance through France more than anything.

I also think the way infrastructure is modelled is OK. I'm disappointed that it seems railways (lothos style or similar) aren't going to be implemented. Splitting these two types of infrastructure really made a HUGE difference.

 

[Jakalak]

Supply convoys to be on the map so I, or the AI, can both escort them properly and attack them in "proper" battles.

This is something I'd be really interested in as well, especially if they added, like you said, forward dumps that could be stockpiled with resources from the 'home' theater.

For one thing, it would add a lot more importance to naval superiority in the mediterranean and control of suez, etc.

If I'm understanding you correctly.

 

[Spruce]

For me there a few matters to be checked/resolved in the new system, points coming from the HOI3 system =
1) In HOI3 there was a bug in the supply system were some routes with low infrastructure in the Donbass region would prohibit the transfer of supplies to your troops. So some divisions were out of supply and during months there was no supply transfer there, altough a province behind them there was supply transfer. The model totally ignored the transfer of supplies at some peculiar situations. And I mean zero supply and zero oil > the result was that your troops were out of action for 9 months. It was reported in the bugforum, but never got an answer on the matter.
2) Something lacking in HOI3 that could be introduced in HOI4 = Destruction or damage to stockpile of the enemy, or cut off from stockpile (how to find out how supply is traced?)
3) A big army on an embargoed coastal province remains in supply, they have a stockpile, my fleet of capital ships is guarding the port, sometimes a transport ship is intercepted, but in the end all supplies and oil keep on flowing in. This should not be possible anymore.
4) What about foraging (small units (one division)), f.e. an isolated division deprived from supplies (food and ammo) - at what point are they loosing organisation? Their ammo can be sufficient when they are not being engaged, or they can get some food at the local level (foraging).
5) In HOI3 I observed some cases were an allied partner moved trough provinces and "dragging" the supplies and oil from my stockpile along with them. I saw a Romanian army moving through my occupied provinces (I was Germany) with very poor supply and all a sudden supply patterns changed, putting my units in the red and "stealing" my supplies. The Romanians got full supply and my troops not! Reported in bug forum, didn't get feedback. So basicly your allies can screw up your supplies, even if you are alliance leader.

 

[scroggin]

But the HoI III supply system was (is) simple.

It's also quite elegant.

It's just not very good at dealing with very large areas/distances.

My biggest gripe was typified by Karachi being supplied from Dalian and then switching to Vladivistok!

It proved to be impossible to maintain anything in Karachi due to the "quirks" of the system.

Yes I agree that the HOI3 supply system is great over a short distance but terrible over long distances. The main thing it needs is to be split up into several supply zones when a large land area is covered by one supply system. Each supply zone could have a "forward supply dump" with supplies travelling from the capital supply dump to the forward supply dump, then on to the troops.

In real life the supplies were sent in anticipation of the need but in HOI3 they are sent to replace what has been drawn from the system. This works as long as the time it takes to replace the supply draw is less than the supply reserve carried by each unit
If the supplies only have to travel a short distance from the forward depot to the troops, supply will be limited by infrastructure not by the time it takes for the supply system to respond to changing supply demand.

 

[No idea]

But the HoI III supply system was (is) simple.

It's also quite elegant.

It's just not very good at dealing with very large areas/distances.

My biggest gripe was typified by Karachi being supplied from Dalian and then switching to Vladivistok!

It proved to be impossible to maintain anything in Karachi due to the "quirks" of the system.

An even worse situation arises when Japan captures Veracruz. Congratulations, your supply base is now on the wrong bloody ocean.

Then there's the parallel to front effect where you move one province and your entire army goes OOS for a week or more and, of course, the linking of beach-heads screws-you-up effect.

I don't know what PDS has in mind, but I sincerely want:-

Supply convoys to be on the map so I, or the AI, can both escort them properly and attack them in "proper" battles.

I want units to draw their supplies from somewhere closer than at present. Somewhere in the same time zone would be nice.

If that means forward dumps for each group, army or corps, so be it.

I'd also like to see the amount of supply used during action go up drastically so you need to build-up stocks before launching an offensive. I realise this may become exploitable by players building hugely unrealistic supply dumps prior to Barbarossa (for example) but they will be discoverable & they will be destroyable. Southern England was, virtually, one big supply dump prior to Overlord but, for various reasons, Germany never tried to bomb them.

If they had, it would be unlikely that the fires could have been put out and huge quantities of stores could have been destroyed for very little effort. This would have slowed the Allied advance through France more than anything.

I also think the way infrastructure is modelled is OK. I'm disappointed that it seems railways (lothos style or similar) aren't going to be implemented. Splitting these two types of infrastructure really made a HUGE difference.

I like your ideas. Especiallybeing able to actually sink supply convoys would make blockades possible. Basically, player and ai would need to control, to some extent, the sea if it wants to have their troops perfectly supplied

 

[Kovax]

I did the same thing, and I think it may even have increased the realism of the game. The HOI 3 system works fairly well for small armies close to their supply source (capital), but breaks down completely for large armies far away from the capital.

Not in my experiences. I frequently had units going in and out of supply within 10 provinces of my capital, over infrastructure of 8 or higher, even after sitting for several months in the same spot. My last frustrating attempt at the game as GER, roughly 5-10 units were stuck waiting for supplies after advancing only about 2 provinces deep into Poland against light opposition, despite having been in supply for weeks or months while awaiting the order to attack. In a previous game as HUN, I had several garrison units in northern Yugoslavia which were out of supply more often than not, even after 6 months for the supply system to adjust and settle down, and occasionally had a unit or two go out of supply temporarily while stationed within my own borders. On the other hand, I had units deep behind enemy lines, with tenuous supply connections at best, which never went out of supply. When you can't even reliably supply your army in your own territory as a modern industrial power, due entirely to the routing system, there's a serious problem with that system.

At this point, almost any change has to be an improvement.

 

[unmerged(13597)]

My last frustrating attempt at the game as GER, roughly 5-10 units were stuck waiting for supplies after advancing only about 2 provinces deep into Poland against light opposition, despite having been in supply for weeks or months while awaiting the order to attack.

5-10 divisions of the German army in Poland at any given time is not so bad, beating Poland is still very easy on any difficulty level. It may even be realistic for the logistics to be screwed up a bit like that.

But later on, when you hold France, half of Russia and maybe parts of Africa and the Middle East, the supply system really crumbles. Unless you keep your army unnaturally small, you risk having almost all your units out of supply, due to the bottleneck at/near the capital, combined with supply flowing back and forth like some kind of standing wave.

If all provinces that are within the same rail network are treated as ONE province for supply purposes, these fluctuations should be eliminated, and the coding of the algorithms should not be too difficult. (The GUI for the rail network needs to be added however). It should also help Japan in China, as long as they keep to the part of the part of China that had a rail network, while keeping Japan away from the inner parts of China, where rail did not exist. (To conquer China, Japan would need to extend the rail network to the interior of China.)

For overseas supply, each continuous rail networks should be treated as one "continent". If, for instance, Japan has holdings in Russia, China and India, all connected by land, but not by rail, there should be (at least) 3 different supply dumps.

Obviously, to compensate for the way supply is eased by (functional) railroad, overland supply tax and throughput could be a lot harsher than today, especially in regions with low road infrastructure and difficult terrain.

At this point, almost any change has to be an improvement.

While it can seem that way, you should not underestimate the number of non-functional supply systems that can be created

 

[unmerged(13597)]

If that means forward dumps for each group, army or corps, so be it.

This used to be my wish as well (dumps at all OOB levels, I mean). There is one problem though, army groups tend to be very large, so it may cause a huge bottleneck if each army group HQ (or even worse, theater HQ) had its own dump.

I did some research online, and for armies/periods where supply organizations did follow the OOB, the dumps tended to be placed only at the army level, and sometimes on the corps level.

I also think the way infrastructure is modelled is OK. I'm disappointed that it seems railways (lothos style or similar) aren't going to be implemented. Splitting these two types of infrastructure really made a HUGE difference.

I agree. I think it will be very difficult to build a semi-realistic supply system that does not separate roads from railroads, given how vital rail was for supply during both world wars. While player controlled on-map supply dumps would be a huge improvement, the transportation of supplies from the capital to the local dump would still be really hard to model without rail.

 

[Kovax]

Having two different infrastructure types might work. Building a meandering dirt or gravel road is relatively quick and easy, even with less than modern techniques, but only does so much for transporting massive quantities of goods to relatively nearby provinces. Building a multi-track rail system necessary for a large-scale military offensive over rivers, through mountains, and across other ill-suited terrain is a lot more difficult and expensive, but can support the transport of far more material over far greater distances.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I hope and suspect that HoI4 supplies will be tied in closely with the battle plan system. Or at least how we as players will interface with the system.


Each offensive plan you line out could have various requirements on recommended supplies and fuel levels needed to be stockpile before it can be fully prepared ( depending on all the usual factors as well as how far you expect forces to advance ).

As the top brass you then have to take the decision. Do I want to give the troops a go right away with bad stockpile / preparation levels, Do I wait for 1 week to allow the situation to be a bit better or Do I wait for a month to allow maximum stockpiles and increase the power of the offensive plan.

 

[Porkman]

I hope and suspect that HoI4 supplies will be tied in closely with the battle plan system. Or at least how we as players will interface with the system.


Each offensive plan you line out could have various requirements on recommended supplies and fuel levels needed to be stockpile before it can be fully prepared ( depending on all the usual factors as well as how far you expect forces to advance ).

As the top brass you then have to take the decision. Do I want to give the troops a go right away with bad stockpile / preparation levels, Do I wait for 1 week to allow the situation to be a bit better or Do I wait for a month to allow maximum stockpiles and increase the power of the offensive plan.

This sounds nice, I like it a lot. The way to put troops on offensive supply? Plan an offensive.

 

[civlibprof]

I hope and suspect that HoI4 supplies will be tied in closely with the battle plan system. Or at least how we as players will interface with the system.


Each offensive plan you line out could have various requirements on recommended supplies and fuel levels needed to be stockpile before it can be fully prepared ( depending on all the usual factors as well as how far you expect forces to advance ).

As the top brass you then have to take the decision. Do I want to give the troops a go right away with bad stockpile / preparation levels, Do I wait for 1 week to allow the situation to be a bit better or Do I wait for a month to allow maximum stockpiles and increase the power of the offensive plan.

I like this idea as well maybe supply lines will be drawn and engineers deployed to maintain improve those line.

 

[Dark Jakkaru]

One has to look historically on how rail shaped the speed and quickness of some operations like the Soviet Manchurian Campaign which was masterful and of equal scale and success to other battles on the European Front. To consider having fought a bloody conflict in Europe to turn around, ship 1/5 away from the planet, then do a giant pincer movement that was several hundred kilometers in scope, scale, and size which lead to complete and total success speaks volumes of having a good logistics set up to support battle hardened veteran troops.

 

[antey2k500]

One has to look historically on how rail shaped the speed and quickness of some operations like the Soviet Manchurian Campaign which was masterful and of equal scale and success to other battles on the European Front. To consider having fought a bloody conflict in Europe to turn around, ship 1/5 away from the planet, then do a giant pincer movement that was several hundred kilometers in scope, scale, and size which lead to complete and total success speaks volumes of having a good logistics set up to support battle hardened veteran troops.

I totally agree with you about the important of Railway transport in WWII, 2 of the many reason Barbarossa supply failed because Russia use a different railroad track parameter which do not allow German train to move on them (which they need much re-work) and the Soviet apply Scorched Earth which they destroy railroad, train station along with others infrastructure to slow down the German.

But to think about a complex supply system and allowing the player to manage supply stockpile/deport, supply truck column pour into the front line gaps for pincer movement, or big rail road construction behind the front as well as finding and destroy enemy deport (with recon plane), hit their railway... it is very very complex and it is somehow against the current HOI4 Vision.

What i can think of is a good AI assitant to do all of this which the new player do not have to worry about, but the veteran can have big rail road construction plan in Poland to prepare for Barbarossa is a great experience. Since railroad and support stockpile/truck column going to make Deep Operation and Air Supremacy Doctrine become effective in HOI4 just like they are in real life, now when i play HOI3 i can only see Blitzkrieg as most viable option.

I also have o thread here to discuss about that, please give me your opinion : http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-Deep-Operation-Air-supremacy-Doctrine-in-HOI

 

[Fawr]

To me the problem isn't really throughput, or being able to build things like railways. The stuff I hate includes:
- Why do your troops get screwed for supplies when they are in allied territory?
- Why does supply only go via one route. If I control 5 ports that should let me land more supplies than one port?
- Sometimes supplies should reach a province by sea even if there is a land connection to the capital.
- Sometimes supplies should reach a province both by sea and by land.
- Why do all supplies come from the capital?

 

[unmerged(13597)]

To me the problem isn't really throughput, or being able to build things like railways. The stuff I hate includes:
- Why do your troops get screwed for supplies when they are in allied territory?
- Why does supply only go via one route. If I control 5 ports that should let me land more supplies than one port?
- Sometimes supplies should reach a province by sea even if there is a land connection to the capital.
- Sometimes supplies should reach a province both by sea and by land.
- Why do all supplies come from the capital?

I think most people agree with your issues. But these are mostly symptoms. Then the problem becomes how to best solve these issues in a way that is robust and within the budget of Paradox to program.

Personally, I think that introducing railways, and allowing instantaneous and unlimited transfer of supplies along railroads, would solve all your issues, possibly in the cheapest way possible (except number 2, which I think you already can in HOI 3).

 

[Porkman]

I think most people agree with your issues. But these are mostly symptoms. Then the problem becomes how to best solve these issues in a way that is robust and within the budget of Paradox to program.

Personally, I think that introducing railways, and allowing instantaneous and unlimited transfer of supplies along railroads, would solve all your issues, possibly in the cheapest way possible (except number 2, which I think you already can in HOI 3).

I'm a huge advocate of the rail-road split, but "instantaneous" and "unlimited" seem like taking it too far. Rails move "lots of stuff" "quickly" but supplies going from Berlin to Kiev are still going to take longer than a day, even with a good rail connection.

 

[Kovax]

Even with rails, instantaneous unlimited transfer is a bit overkill, in my opinion. I could see having the maximum daily throughput limited by the level of rail infrastructure, where L10 rails would be pretty close to unlimited, but most of Europe would be considerably shy of that capacity. Some of it could be higher throughput than the present generic infrastructure allows, but there would be significant areas of limited rail coverage. HOI3 had to bump almost all of GER up to 10 infrastructure right from the start, just to make the system work at all. When you start at the maximum, there's no room for expansion.

Also, the tech to unlock the building of infrastructure was ridiculous. One day, I don't even know how to make gravel roads, and the next I can build multi-track high-speed rail systems and highways. Each progressive step in infrastructure should require an advancement in your Advanced Construction tech level (which should probably be renamed to something indicating roads and rails), not an "all or nothing" check-mark.