The Great Patriotic War

[loki100]

Too bad you are bleeding dry also.
A true war of attrition.
No decisive battles, just a long gridlock.
Me likes!

Nail-biting stuff! Seems like the Axis war machine is starting to lose a lot of it's momentum. Perhaps the turning point approaches after this new crisis is resolved?

On an AAR-related note: very hard fighting, being pushed back slowly but steadily. But hey! It's October! Any time now the mud and snow will come to your rescue, right?!?

This is the first time with HOI3 that I've seen the AI actually recover a situation. In my previous game (ok back with 1.3) once I stopped them, there was a period of stalemate, then their front buckled and that was it. Well this time the stalemate occurs, there's a juicy Soviet winter offensive to come, a back and forth set of battles all summer of 1942, and (about a year ahead), a fresh crisis brews in both the Ukraine and at Moscow.

In part I've achieved this by fiddling in the save game files to compensate for the production AI getting confused (as per the supply post above), but it does indicate just how close HOI3 is now to really living up to its potential.

Excellent stuff, very good updates, especially the one regarding the defence of Leningrad. Very bloody, intense fighting. Heartening to see such a strong showing from the USSR, hopefully you can continue to do well against the Axis advance. Oh, and...My wish is for you to send me a PM forthwith containing your bank details!

Seeing how loki100 has mentioned several times he's self-employed, and the general state of the world economy being piss-poor (not, perhaps, the best time to be self-employed), I doubt that is going to be the windfall you're hoping for.

well that was more or less the answer I was going to give - like Ireland I'd be happy to communalise my debts ... . Of course the real trade off to being self-employed is I no longer have to take part in, or any interest in, organisational game playing ... well worth the occasional cash flow crisis.

I must commend you on your selection of photos: I'm sure you put a lot of time into finding the right ones, but you make it look easy - period and story-appropriate pictures that really enhance the writing. The Tigers, the SU-76s and... Oh my God! Is that a woman straddling a soldier behind that Maxim machinegun in the last picture?!**I do apologize. I really do.

I've found a good set of sources from a Soviet perspective ... it helps if you can transliterate cyrillic (thats really all that is needed), but it means you have much more than pictures from a German viewpoint (that since their archives were captured are much more widely available). There is also a bit of fitting text to pictures as well - doing it this way does allow, shall we say, a little bit of poetic license, more than relying on in-game screenshots for the maps etc.

Best regard it as either (a) she knows I've got a major manpower shortage a brewing, so is doing her proletarian duty to produce the next generation of tank drivers or (b) and more likely - first aid? Anyway from the aforementioned site, I've got a few more to entertain you ... including different photographs of Soviet traffic policewomen (I know you like that sort of thing).

The "Battle of ..." events have definitely improved the game: those defined as 'decisive battles' by propangandists on both sides during the war had a big effect, and they had these effects exactly there as portrayed in the game: the home front. Not so much directly on the fighting capabilities.
Well done that man! (and PI)

I agree, at first they irritated me. The text had nothing to do with the game etc. Now I like them, it tends to pop at the sort of iconic battle where you can imagine the good news being trumpeted by any propoganda press (so my victory at Leningrad) or circulating by rumour and feeding into an overall feeling of low morale (loss of Odessa, the Velikie Luki battles etc). As you say its good that for the most part they are indirect, affecting the home front etc.

(playing UK atm) Mr. Churchill hope the bear and the eagle will destroy each other!

In this one, Mr Churchill is holed up in the Shetlands ... judging by today's weather in Glasgow he's running the risk of being blown across to Norway

 

[loki100]

"A Horror so refined", Bryansk - August-September 1941

The direct push at Moscow on the Smolensk-Rzev-Kalinin axis had been held off by three relatively strong armies, reinforced by the bulk of the STAVKA reserve. The Bryansk axis was held by the battered 10 Army. To make the task even harder, it lacked any armoured formations and its mobile forces consisted of the 6th Cavalry Corps.



At the start of August, the only immediate reserve was the three DNO formations raised from Moscow and Tula. They were rushed to Bryansk and reinforced by regular Red Army units under the command of 32 Corps.

Critically, this ad-hoc formation, supplemented with NKVD troops was to hold the vital road and rail junctions at Bryansk for almost a month from 14 August to 10 September.


(the DNO forces at Bryansk were raised from all sectors of Soviet life - the risk of a German breakthrough was such that anyone able to use a rifle was thrown into the battle)


This defense by 32 Corps combined with a rearguard action by 1 Corps to the north.


(elements of 1 Corp to the north of Bryansk)

By late August, the Germans everywhere held the east bank of the Dniepr. However the actions in and around Bryansk had cost them 14-15,000 dead (Soviet losses were nearly 17,000 dead).

The DNO formations were pulled back into STAVKA reserve and re-equipped and retrained as regular rifle divisions.

Not only had the German victory come at a cost in terms of lives, they had also had to draw troops away from their flanks. To the north this had allowed 13 Army to recover and mount its Rzhev counteroffensive. To the south, the North Ukrainian Front's 5 Army was able to slash at their positions around Mena and Konotop from mid August onwards.

The German problem was worsened by the effectiveness of the partisan activity around Homyel. Here the terrain favoured such actions with poor and narrow roads and the closeness of the front lines made it easy for the NKVD to reinforce the local groups. Especially to the south of Bryansk, the German spearhead stalled, frequently short of munitions, fuel and even food.

In consequence even as 1 and 32 Corps were ripped apart in the Bryansk battles, 10 Army was strengthened by drawing in additional formations from the Ukrainian Fronts. STAVKA was not only able to feed these into the front line but also build up a small operational reserve and fill out the 20th and 44th corps.

To compensate for the lack of armour, the attacking troops were heavily reinforced with artillery



including army assets such as 152mm heavy guns


and katyushas


The German's then made several errors. First, as at Rzev, they failed to press home their advantage. Second they assumed that 10 Army was a spent force and pulled troops away from Bryansk (for several days leaving the city guarded by a Hungarian HQ unit) to deflect the blows of 5 Army and 3 Army on their south and north respectively.

From mid September onwards 3 Army was brigaded with 10 Army in the renamed Bryansk Front and in combination launched an initially unsucessful offensive. This started at Barjatino, even before the Germans had finally cleared the 32nd Corp from Bryansk.



This was followed by major actions at Verkopole and of an attempt to retake Bryansk itself – only beaten off on 24 September by a hastily assembled German reserve.



However, even if they were able to fend off these initial blows the German command was forced constantly to cannibalise its own front line. On an axis where they had originally sought to envelop Moscow from the south, the Germans were badly off balance, switching their mobile forces from one defensive action to another.

As 1st and 32nd Corps recoved from their losses in August, by early October, STAVKA was able to mount a major counterattack in this sector.

Overall Summary

With the exception of the Volkhov sector to the north west, at the end of September, STAVKA was relieved that the first assaults on Moscow had been defeated. Leningrad was all but cut off and the Germans approached Vologda but on an arc from Bryansk to Kalinin the two armies had fought each other to a standstill. Soviet dead amounted to 120,594 the Germans had lost 106,816 and their allies 3,166 dead in direct combat alone.


(overall position on the Western Strategic Axis)

 

[unmerged(34917)]

In AoD I played a serious Russia 1936 game on Hard that was just awesome. I had an extremely difficult time against the Germans and they managed to overrun me everywhere, although I still held Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. But everywhere else the fighting was heavy. Only in 1943 was I able to push them back when they has lost so much manpower by attrition and combat that they were unable to restock all their divisions. I managed to push them back bit by bit and creeped towards Berlin. In April 45 I had it. It was quite historical in that sense. So cool...

This is much like it. Nice!

 

[Stuyvesant]

I've got a few more to entertain you ... including different photographs of Soviet traffic policewomen (I know you like that sort of thing).

When you put it like that... I guess I need to go have a chat with a therapist.

On to the map (I do like me a good map) and the German advances are quite impressive. That bulging frontline that hovers menacingly over Moscow... The Germans feel like a real threat and even though you pushed them off balance, it won't take much to put them back on solid footing.

I look forward to the first winter on the Eastern Front.

 

[Alfredian]

That last map really brings back into focus how BIG the USSR is. An invader can have to occupy an awful lot of nothing.

 

[morningSIDEr]

The maps really do seem to show the Axis poised to deliver a fatal blow to the USSR, but your current fighting proves otherwise. Nonetheless a few reverses and things would get even more sticky. Regardless this is what is making this AAR prove such a good read, the constant uncertainty as to whether the USSR will survive or not.

 

[Surt]

The far advance into the north east has doomed the Germans, all their supplies will be routed that way and end up in nothingness as soon as winter comes.

 

[Enewald]

The map looks so pretty.
Can I see the in-game map?

 

[Darth Moose]

Rodina Mat must be saved! Onwards!

I have seen two problems in my games:
- The production AI can get messed up pretty fast.
- The Axis nations don't seem to build convoys. I've edited my saves several times to add convoys and escorts - or my sub skippers ran out of targets and my island-hopping Marines had walk-overs. I'm not sure if this is an ICE problem.

 

[loki100]

In AoD I played a serious Russia 1936 game on Hard that was just awesome. I had an extremely difficult time against the Germans and they managed to overrun me everywhere, although I still held Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. But everywhere else the fighting was heavy. Only in 1943 was I able to push them back when they has lost so much manpower by attrition and combat that they were unable to restock all their divisions. I managed to push them back bit by bit and creeped towards Berlin. In April 45 I had it. It was quite historical in that sense. So cool...

This is much like it. Nice!

sounds a great game ... do like it when you get that feel of a long drawn out slugfest, its not that I want a game to emulate history but there were good fundamental reasons why the Great Patriotic War took the form it did, so a good simulation should tend to recreate the fundamentals.

This is definitely the best game and challenge I've had with HOI3 so far. Several times I actually thought I could lose and I still think (and I've just turned the corner into 1943) it could end in stalemate.

When you put it like that... I guess I need to go have a chat with a therapist.

On to the map (I do like me a good map) and the German advances are quite impressive. That bulging frontline that hovers menacingly over Moscow... The Germans feel like a real threat and even though you pushed them off balance, it won't take much to put them back on solid footing.

I look forward to the first winter on the Eastern Front.

That last map really brings back into focus how BIG the USSR is. An invader can have to occupy an awful lot of nothing.

Its a sort of classic glass half empty/half full map - in one sense its scary just how much I lost in 4 months (& it gets worse), on the other hand no other power, except possible the USA, could lose that much terrain and survive. In terms of grand strategy it really emphasises the mistake the Germans made not in making war on the Soviet regime but making war on the Russian people. The regime could have been toppled and some sort of Brest Litovsk+ peace extracted, but thats not what they were after.

The maps really do seem to show the Axis poised to deliver a fatal blow to the USSR, but your current fighting proves otherwise. Nonetheless a few reverses and things would get even more sticky. Regardless this is what is making this AAR prove such a good read, the constant uncertainty as to whether the USSR will survive or not.

The map looks so pretty.
Can I see the in-game map?

Here's three - the first was the cheery one that popped up every time I loaded the game, the other two show where things had got to in the NW and the Ukraine in a bit more detail.







I originally didn't use in game maps due to problems with graphic cards. One of my clients (aka the 'client from hell') unwittingly bought me a new laptop, but I'll now stick to the drawn maps for the most part for the feel and consistency.

The far advance into the north east has doomed the Germans, all their supplies will be routed that way and end up in nothingness as soon as winter comes.

It does get bad for them, esp with my logistical bombing campaign but for the most part they had few formations out of supply for a long time, just most formations with some degree of supply problems for a while. Till I manually intervened first in late Jan then in late June, they were usually managing the situation ok, but at both those stages the German production AI had gone bonkers.

Rodina Mat must be saved! Onwards!

I have seen two problems in my games:
- The production AI can get messed up pretty fast.
- The Axis nations don't seem to build convoys. I've edited my saves several times to add convoys and escorts - or my sub skippers ran out of targets and my island-hopping Marines had walk-overs. I'm not sure if this is an ICE problem.

It remains very touch and go all winter, at times I thought I really had them on the run then the AI would lash back and I'd be pushed back, so saving the Rodina this time around has been quite a challenge.

Agree with both propositions. Hopefully its this sort of retuning the production AI that Lothos has been doing for the next patch/expansion. It seems that the once its basic supply stock dips below a level then the complexity of the in/out flows confuses it. As a player I every now and then get the 'supplies will run out in 30 days' message, tend to ignore it and a few days later the supply stockpile is increasing. It also sort of needs to take account of the advantage of being on the offensive - viz: you can supplement your supplies by snaffling the enemies.

 

[Enewald]

Soviet Union winning the war after German 41 and 42 offensives was a miracle.
The mechanics do not include miracles.

That looks so sick.

 

[unmerged(34917)]

The scale of the East Front from Russian perspective is just huge. Mass armies, unending lands, huge HQ chain. It seems sometimes a nightmare to manage. I think that northern push can be counterattacked from the flanks and perhaps some Axis divisions can be caught napping.

 

[loki100]

"And all the dead, lie down": Counterstroke in the Ukraine - August 1941

By the end of July the Soviet position in the Ukraine appeared desparate, especially in the South. So far the Red Army had not been able to turn the tables at any stage. Counterattacks had been limited and sucessful defensive positions often abandoned to avoid encirclement. As on the Moscow axis, the current defense line now lay just to the front of critical industrial resources and political centres. Some means had to be found to stabilise the front.



The surprise, perhaps, was the importance of the Black Sea fleet to this solution.

Kiev

At Kiev, 5A had managed to stabilise the position along the Dniepr, in particular using 1 Tank Corps to spearhead the counterblow.


(T-34s of 1 Tank Corps taking part in the Mena offensive)

In combination with German supply problems, this allowed 5A to mount a limited counterattack (the Mena Offensive) from 14 August to 5 September. This revolved around the small town of Konotop which the Soviets finally took on 21 August



and finally lost to German counterattacks, led by 18 and 26 Panzer divisions, by 5 September.


(destroyed German Pz III at Konotop)

Overall the effect was to stall any German assault on Kursk as well as to help break up the German Bryansk-Orel offensive to the north. Again, German mobile forces had been forced to operate to prevent a Soviet breakthrough rather than spearheading their own offensive operations.

Central Ukraine

Along the central Dniepr 12A and 26A were steadily being pushed back, with a rifle division being lost in a German Kessel near Vinnytsa as the defense briefly fell apart. The respite that came from the counterblow in the south saw some change of fortunes, with significant defensive victories at Horodysche on 16 August, Domantova on 23 August



and Romny 28 August all helping to stabilise the front.



Again, well judged counterstrokes by 3rd Tank Corps helped to bolster the Soviet defense and slow any German progress.


(T-34 from 3 Tank Corps, well dug in as part of the defensive battles of 12 Army)

The Black Sea coast

It was in the south, in the sector notionally under the control of 9 Army that the most dramatic actions took place. This army, understrength and relying on cavalry for its mobile forces had been badly handled in the Bessarabian battles and in its defeat at Odessa. It was being steadily forced back towards the lower Dniepr and Kherson, opening the door to the industrial centres of South Ukraine as well as a potential threat to the naval base of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

The respite came from an unlikely source. The Black Sea fleet had established an early control over the region, sinking the small Rumanian navy in late July and beating off incursions by Italian and Greek forces. Aided by the VVS's air superiority, it was confident to seize operational control of the region at the same time as Soviet submarines were ripping apart Rumania's maritime trade. To assist this, the fleet started landing small sabotage teams to wreck Rumania's main ports at Constanta and Vylkove. This revealed a lack of any significant defensive forces along the coastal area and VVS reconnaisance indicated no meaningful forces at either Bucharest or Ploesti.


(Destroyers of the Black Sea Fleet were used to land Soviet sabotage teams as well as in the major naval actions)

In the light of this, STAVKA authorised a daring ripost to Rumania's agression. The 1st Marine Division was landed at Vylkove on 4 August


(Soviet Marines go ashore at Vylkove)

As hoped, the Rumanian high command panicked (not for the only time when faced with a major Soviet offensive). They had no strategic reserve so pulled formations out of the main front, this in turn allowed 9 Army to regain some ground and 26 Army to launch a small scale counterattack. However, Soviet reconnaisance indicated that Constanta too was undefended. Here 133 Rifle Division was landed and immediately ordered to drive inland. Bucharest was taken on 20 August, but German and Rumanian troops arrived in time to save Ploesti. The German forces included two Panzer divisions (15 and 20) hastily withdrawn from the main front.

This secured not just the vital oilfields but also the Rumanian state. By the end of August, Soviet positions in Rumania had been eliminated (1st Marine being evacuated) and 133 Rifle Division forced to surrender after a 8 day battle on 28 August.




(Elements of 133 Rifle at Bucharest)

However, in the chaos in the Western Ukraine, 9 Army had had a vital respite to reorganise and even briefly retook Odessa, though this was abandoned as the Germans moved back out of Rumania. Equally the Rumanian 1 Tank Division had been caught and destroyed completely by 26 Army.


(Rumanian armour in the Ukraine - this formation was utterly shattered in the August battles)

The delay in any further offensive action in the South Ukraine also allowed the the Theatre to start building up a small strategic reserve under the notional command of 2 Army (consisting at this stage of 6 rifle divisions, but also including a number of additional artillery and anti tank assets). September was to show whether all that had been achieved was a short delay in the Axis offensive or if the Soviet forces in the Ukraine could hold a line running roughly the length of the Dniepr. If so, the vital industrial, population and resource centres of the Eastern Ukraine would continue to support the desperate struggle by the GKO to re-equip and reinforce the battered Soviet armed forces.

Although the campaign in the Ukraine had been one of manouvre, by the end of July the front was more or less where it had been at the start of the month. To secure this relative stalemate 61,000 Soviet soldiers were killed or taken prisoner, some 39,000 Germans were killed and 6,500 of their allies (and a further 7,000 taken prisoner).

In recognition, the Soviet Black Sea Fleet became known as the 'saviours of the Dombas' and the Soviet defenders in the vital battles of the Autumn were frequently exhorted to 'remember the heroic 133rd'.


Soviet sailors of the Black Sea Fleet - a rare moment of rest given the almost continuous operations in the Summer and Autumn of 1941

 

[unmerged(34917)]

Cool update, these were some brave men to sacrifice themselves for Mother Russia.
Ah well, fortune favours the brave, so they say.

 

[Enewald]

You should try more often to send an undermanned ghost-HQ to drive to Bucharest, or Sofia.

That is so evil!

 

[Surt]

You should try more often to send an undermanned ghost-HQ to drive to Bucharest, or Sofia.

That is so evil!

Would make the game too easy as the AI can't defend itself against such tactics.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Are you planning to hold on Leningrad? I just image if Germans cut off Leningrad the Soviets would starve of supplies. You need transport planes.

 

[loki100]

Soviet Union winning the war after German 41 and 42 offensives was a miracle.
The mechanics do not include miracles.

That looks so sick.

I had to look at that (& worse) loading screens for at least a game year - I started panicking even before playing

the rest is probably a debate for elsewhere, but some more astute Wehrmacht officers reckoned they lost the war when the Soviets slipped out of encirclement in the Rostov and lower Don battles at the start of Blau. Once the Red Army learnt to conduct a fighting retreat, they were doomed.

For what little its worth - I think if Leningrad and Moscow had fallen in 1941 the regime might have collapsed, Stalin was little loved in the Red Army. Even without such catastrophic losses, the Army was de facto in control as state and party organisations had fallen apart by November 41. The new Russian Government might have taken a peace that cost them all the M-R gains and some land in Bielorussia/W Ukraine, but such a peace was not going to be offered.

The scale of the East Front from Russian perspective is just huge. Mass armies, unending lands, huge HQ chain. It seems sometimes a nightmare to manage. I think that northern push can be counterattacked from the flanks and perhaps some Axis divisions can be caught napping.

My basic approach to managing the Rodina is to make sure my army boundaries are tightly drawn (it gets a bit more complex later on when I form up Tank Armies that inevitably intermingle with the normal armies). That means I keep command ranges tight etc. I then sit down once a game month and do a clean up of the OOB (more if I've been shoving divisions up and down the front). I think if I lose the plot with the OOB it'd be hard work to sort it out again.

One of my problems in the north was that early in 1942 I had a nice juicy 6-8 rifle and cav divisions just completing production and had them earmarked for deployment in the Urals (yep it gets that bad), to take account of low German numbers that far east. I thought I'd roll up their line and generate some pockets etc. All I'll say here is I ended up *needing* them more urgently somewhere else.

Cool update, these were some brave men to sacrifice themselves for Mother Russia.
Ah well, fortune favours the brave, so they say.

Glad you'd liked it. I felt rather sad over the fate of the 133rd but they are not the last Soviet formation to meet an isolated end deep in German encirclement.

You should try more often to send an undermanned ghost-HQ to drive to Bucharest, or Sofia.

Would make the game too easy as the AI can't defend itself against such tactics.

Agree, too gamey. Its the same reason I don't add combat brigades to my HQs. The AI is still too fragile to take advantage of (although it is far more inventive now). Having said that I briefly considered splitting the division into brigades but I was really not sure how much or how fast the AI would respond (in truth massively and quickly), so decided if I got Bucharest I trashed Rumania's stockpiles at the very least. They were much more passive after that so I think I did some damage to both their immediate supply/resource situation and their medium term availability. Well worth a rifle division.

Are you planning to hold on Leningrad? I just image if Germans cut off Leningrad the Soviets would starve of supplies. You need transport planes.

As long as I held Smolensk I could use air supply (lost a transport plane doing so) but for most of late 41 - mid 42 it was in German hands. There's actually a dearth of Soviet airbases in the Kalinin-Vologda region & next time I'd build a few level 1s in that area for operational flexibility.

This is probably a good time to repeat the confession in the supply post above. I've done some twiddling to the save game file at different times. Mostly to help out the axis when the German production AI went bonkers. First time (early feb 42) I gave them a block of fuel and supplies at Minsk and a lot more at Berlin (which stabilised things), then again in July 42 I gave then a wodge in Berlin (so it still needed to brave partisans and the VVS to reach the front), again it calmed the production AI down ... and led to a rather dramatic 1942.

Now I think isolated IC if it also has resources should produce some supply. Equally Leningrad survived 3 years relatively cut off, mostly by locally produced munitions.

So what I did as a sort of balances to the above was to slot in a small batch of supplies to Leningrad. Didn't allow me to do anything, but what it did do was to stop my troops degrading to 0 org, but they had to fight with a supply malus.

Having said all which, with hindsight, I should have retreated eastwards and abandoned the city. The 20+ rifle divs in and around Leningrad would probably have stabiliised my front on the Vologda-Lake Onega front. Equally I should have abandoned Murmansk (& didin't, & ended up losing another batch of troops).

My defense, as such, is the aar isn't game play so some intervention helps keep the narrative flowing along.

 

[Stuyvesant]

My defense, as such, is the aar isn't game play so some intervention helps keep the narrative flowing along.

You're open about the changes you've made, they seem pretty balanced between what you give the Germans and yourself and, as you state yourself, you're not focusing on the gameplay to show what an awesome player you are, so I think no harm done to anyone involved.

Good actions all round. I picture the poor riflemen from the 133rd frantically looting and burning everything in sight, desparately torching yet another supply depot while the German Panzers are rolling towards Bucarest. Must've been one sucky assignment.

 

[Darth Moose]

The 133rd RF should be reconstituted as a Guards Rifle Divison, using any cadres that were evacuated out of the encirclement, or returned home wounded at the early stages of the raid.

I like the little dog serving in the Red Navy.