Werewolf LXXXIII: No Dice

[Calamity]

Huh. With Rysz getting hunted when he did, I was certain that Trespoe had been turned. I had given him Rysz's name right before I was doc-saved (thanks Calamity!), and when he was hunted on the next plausible hunt night, I was just sure the JL had a leak.

You pulled out of it all well, however.

The reason I tried to heal Rysz the night after you were hunted was because he was an early voter on the wolf (Racz I think?) during the day before, and I assumed he was part of the JL because of it, its possible the wolves figured the same.

You don't need to thank me when I screw up and fail to save you...

 

[trespoe]

just a quick question: why did y'all decide to lynch me? i'd gotten run up a bunch of times, including against wolves, and yet survived. that should have vetted me.

It would have cleared Tornadoli, too, which is why it was so long till he got scanned.

It was the fact you missed a vote and there was a no hunt.....

Same as von Loch Ness....

 

[trespoe]

This could have gone completely wrong at the beginning. I scanned Slinky the first night..... I needed someone to help with the JL, I have never been a Seer before, and only once in the JL (the screwed up one where I was a confused priest). I had no idea what to do, so I thought to scan Slinky and ask his help...

Thanks wolves for offing him before I screwed up....

I scanned Marty next and after that, it was a matter of who acted suspicious (vLN & Syber), and then who voted for them, who didn't vote for them, and work with the possible pack options...

After Walrus, it was a lot more difficult with the last wolf, sorry we had to lynch so many.

I really had a big leap of faith to reach out to unscanned players (OrangeYoshi & hdk) in order to get the first wolf lynched. OY was unscanned and hdk knew about me from early on.

ROLL The dice for a win!!! It was all one big gamble it seems....

 

[trespoe]

Speaking of dice rolling...

How did the new rules work?

It didn't play a part in what I did, and it seems the hunter got hunted too early. The doctor was the only one who had any use of the rules. It seems that while the doctor didn't save anyone, at least the opportunity was there.

I am not sure about how the witness works, however.

I liked the way the doctor worked, but the other roles didn't get a good workout to test them.

OH, and BTW, thanks for GMing, Arch Mede

 

[OrangeYoshi]

This could have gone completely wrong at the beginning. I scanned Slinky the first night..... I needed someone to help with the JL, I have never been a Seer before, and only once in the JL (the screwed up one where I was a confused priest). I had no idea what to do, so I thought to scan Slinky and ask his help...

Thanks wolves for offing him before I screwed up....

I scanned Marty next and after that, it was a matter of who acted suspicious (vLN & Syber), and then who voted for them, who didn't vote for them, and work with the possible pack options...

After Walrus, it was a lot more difficult with the last wolf, sorry we had to lynch so many.

I really had a big leap of faith to reach out to unscanned players (OrangeYoshi & hdk) in order to get the first wolf lynched. OY was unscanned and hdk knew about me from early on.

ROLL The dice for a win!!! It was all one big gamble it seems....

I would still like to know how you knew I was active enough to out vLN in that short amount of time you gave me. Was it just because you saw my online status?

 

[trespoe]

I would still like to know how you knew I was active enough to out vLN in that short amount of time you gave me. Was it just because you saw my online status?

yep.

It became obvious that hdk wasn't online, so I looked at the social group to see who was online, figured the odds by seeing who had voted who, and decided you couldn't be a part of vLN's pack.

You still could have been part of the other pack, however.

EDIT: that is what I meant about there being a lot of gambling on my part. Ironic in a game about casinos.

 

[Paendrag]

Good Game TAM..

Although I have an objection to letting the Apprentice's know that they are one.. 9 of 10 will always side up with the JL which give the baddies a unfair disadvantage.. I was thinking of contacting OY to tell him to have me scanned by either Goodie scanner but later decided that was to gamey..
Not that it seems to have mattered this game but it could have kept me alive..

QUOTE=The Arch Mede]You suddenly realise you are an unclaimed apprentice rather than just an ordinary villager.

(I only just realised I put it as a role rather than a trait in the rules)[/QUOTE]


Looking at the big picture I think the "No dice" rule worked out ok but then again I have no objections against the old form either..

Everyone kept saying I wasn't RP'ing as much as I usually do but I have gone through my posts and almost every single one is an RP post? The only diffrence since 6 months is that I don't have time to post so much as I used to but that's my son's fault..


Thanks again and hopefully I can participate in one of your games again...

 

[Rysz]

Huh. With Rysz getting hunted when he did, I was certain that Trespoe had been turned. I had given him Rysz's name right before I was doc-saved (thanks Calamity!), and when he was hunted on the next plausible hunt night, I was just sure the JL had a leak.

You pulled out of it all well, however.

I was afraid of a leak JL right after randakar got hunted. Before contacting any of the priest-scanned players (like OY), I tried to get information out of the thread that they were safe enough.

I trusted trespoe (who was not even scanned by randakar) even less, because we got his name only from OY.

OY however told trespoe my name when I contacted OY, even though I said he should not. When OY got down, I was surprised that trespoe contacted me directly, and I kinda attacked him in the PM about a leak JL and stuff.

The problem was that this had very easily could go wrong. No JL-member was double scanned, and at first the priest and seer did not know who the other was. BTW, when did we stop the priest from scanning the seer? That way the priest and seer can never even try (as hard as it is) to establish a double-scanned JL.

This all went well eventually, but I am amazed it did. I wouldn't have taken the risks both the seer and priest did here.

 

[randakar]

It is okay, I had a "black spot" for the human brain in seeing Tornadoli as a wolf...

Didn't I tell you in no uncertain terms to scan him?
I hate to say "I told you so.." ..

 

[the_hdk]

Yay my first win! Thanks for GMing TAM.

I would like to offer my apologies to the_hdk, I would of tried healed you the day I was AWOL, as I had done the day before, but I totally forgot, and of course that had to be the day you got hunted. o

Of course given my record for actually saving people you would of probably died anway.

ohh well that happens alot to me in big games....
you could say this was 9th time I died on the last day :rofl:

doh for some reason I knew I would get hunted....still don't know how...
I just knew...

I either have alot of luck or alot of bad luck

good well well done GM

who's doing the next?
edit: I might want to GM a big for once (havn't done one yet....) but not this one...the next one I need time to prepere

 

[randakar]

This all went well eventually, but I am amazed it did. I wouldn't have taken the risks both the seer and priest did here.

I took a chance with OY based on two things:

1) I had an apprentice, so if I died the (much more experienced and probably careful) apprentice would still be around.

I took pains to insure that your name was not known. I gave OY a password that the person who scanned the first wolf could use to contact you and a counterpassword that you could use to identify yourself with.
(This explains the weird 'Frankenstein' post OY made, btw - it was him attempting to contact the apprentice after I died.)

2) I had a feeling I would be hunted soon no matter what I did. I was certain I had two identified wolves on my suspect list (vLN before the outing, and Torn) and was openly accusing them. Not just that, I had resorted to name-calling to get them to decloak. I could not imagine the wolves would take that kindly
Therefore it made sense to try to make something of the last few moments I had in this game to either get in contact with the Seer before the JL spokesman died, or to get the name of a wolf of the opposing pack.

I am not unsatisfied with my decisions during this game. In hindsight calling the wolves names might not have been the smartest thing to do, but other than that I don't think I made any really big mistakes. Other than being a pain in the arse for the wolves

 

[Slinky]

At least that was all your pack missed. The other pack could have had three more hunts, a brutalisation and a leader lynch.

I am now glad that I was hunted the first night. Infiltrating the JL would be fun, but if the wolves would not be able to make use of it, it's a bit pointless. I am also amazed at how long the JL actually survived this game.

 

[randakar]

At least that was all your pack missed. The other pack could have had three more hunts, a brutalisation and a leader lynch.

It's not your fault AM but I've seen better play from wolf packs. Before the first JL outing my suspect list was basically Torn, vLN, Racz, Calamity, and Snow White. 4 out of 5 turned out to be wolves.


I was scanning people who got run up in the first two days based on the theory that those people were more likely to be non-wolves, therefore I had a higher chance of catching cultists and sorcerers in there - and people who got cleared of cultistness that way had a higher chance of being goodies. I scanned Kriszo, Muttoneer and Rysz the first 3 days (which netted me the apprentice).

Then when Johho posted his "randakar is not a wolf because of the trouble he had getting out of getting lynched of day one, and the same theory clears me of being a wolf too" thing I just thought "good point" and proceeded to scan him. The rest of that is history


Why was I hunted btw? Anyone care to tell me?


Can we see some of these ND rules back in (one of) the next games?

Speaking of which: My thoughts on that subject:

- I kind of liked the timeslot idea for witnessing. It means that a smart witness might be able to carefully time his witness order to catch wolves earlier. I'm not sure what the witness trait did for the wolves though - could they catch scanners with it?

- I didn't like not being certain about what pack hunted in what order. What determined which pack hunted? Were there No Dice rules in play for that as well? If there were, I'd rather not see that back I think.

- I honestly don't think having just a 50% chance to save a patient is good. No Dice rules or not. It's hard enough to guess what target the wolves will pick next, it would be nice if being right actually helps the village.

 

[johho888]

who's doing the next?
edit: I might want to GM a big for once (havn't done one yet....) but not this one...the next one I need time to prepere

I am. There is a queue for hosting big games, you can find it at the first page of the social group, just ask EURO to add you to the list.

Speaking of which:

****** New game is up ******​

 

[Rysz]

I took a chance with OY based on two things:

1) I had an apprentice, so if I died the (much more experienced and probably careful) apprentice would still be around.

I took pains to insure that your name was not known. I gave OY a password that the person who scanned the first wolf could use to contact you and a counterpassword that you could use to identify yourself with.
(This explains the weird 'Frankenstein' post OY made, btw - it was him attempting to contact the apprentice after I died.)

2) I had a feeling I would be hunted soon no matter what I did. I was certain I had two identified wolves on my suspect list (vLN before the outing, and Torn) and was openly accusing them. Not just that, I had resorted to name-calling to get them to decloak. I could not imagine the wolves would take that kindly
Therefore it made sense to try to make something of the last few moments I had in this game to either get in contact with the Seer before the JL spokesman died, or to get the name of a wolf of the opposing pack.

I am not unsatisfied with my decisions during this game. In hindsight calling the wolves names might not have been the smartest thing to do, but other than that I don't think I made any really big mistakes. Other than being a pain in the arse for the wolves

Yes, the risk you took was less than the risk trespoe took, because of you having an apprentice, and making those votecounts made you a likely target anyway. Also you were moving fast into the "unlynchable" role, so smart wolves would hunt you sooner or later.

You did well with the way you gave OY not too much information. This way the apprentice (me) could choose for himself when to start trusting OY. Only too bad that he gave my name to trespoe so quickly. (as far as I was concerned, because I hadn't scanned trespoe yet)

 

[Kriszo]

Wow, I won again, I can't believe it

Thanks for The Arch Mede for GMing.

Thanks for trespoe for a wonderful seer play.

And thanks for the wolves that they didn't hunt me, as it appears I was cursed

Actually, I think my awful voting record saved me, as I had to be scanned by both priest and seer, I almost looked like a wolf to myself.

 

[TheArchMede]

Time window rules post mortem
The witness rules hardly got used. OY tried to use his witness ability to catch wolfs reacting to his outings. The others either didn't use it, or got killed early. Choosing the time window for them was tricky. I definitely gave the cultists too narrow a window, though johho got lucky and it didn't actually impede the cultists. The time window based rules need an experienced GM to set the windows, and I would only recommend trying them again with a time themed game. What I would do for the no dice witness (and I would have done it in this game if I had thought of it before the game) is to base it on the last digit of their order and the hunt order. i.e hunt at xx:y3 and witness at ww:z8, 3+8 mod 10 = 1 and a successful witness on a chance of 20% or more. This is similar to how I was choosing the wolf for the patient to remember. The patient has to guess the minute of the hunt, then it gets added to the actual minute of the hunt.

No dice rules post mortem
Players almost completely ignored the no dice rules. Neither wolf pack, nor the hunter varied from their default. The doctor did a couple of switches, but changed to the wrong method just as she started to guess the hunt right. What this meant in practice was that the GM set the result of the interactions before the game started, rather than by die rolling during the game. I much prefer this.

The amount of extra record keeping for the no dice rules is trivial, though anyone trying the time window type of rule needs to think about the amount of PMs that could be generated, and how to deal with it. That does have the potential to become non-trivial. I think I got the limts right, but because no-one tried to make much use of the rules, my PM box was never close to being in danger of overfilling.

Doing votecounts is not trivial. After writing the RP pieces, by far the greatest proportion of my time was spent doing votecounts even though I didn't do many of them.

@Paendrag
On the apprentice, I agree the players should not be told (which I why I didn't tell them originally), but that means making it a trait in the setup. It was my mistake putting them in as a role rather than a trait. When I realised it, Euro wasn't around so I couldn't check with him how he had intended it, and I felt I had to go with the rules as written. I thought the setup was biassed to the wolves in other ways (the wolves missed 6 kills by not sending in orders, and Tornadoli still would have been in a good position to win if he had hunted Trespoe again after hunting the bless off him) so that might have been part of the way Euro balanced it.

@randakar
only 3 of those 5 were wolfs. Trespoe was doing better than that. He had 4 wolfs in at least one of his scan orders.

the packs were hunting on an ABBA pattern

the patient sees a wolf if they survive. Thats what makes the doc different from a GA and why it cant be certain. Just think how much of a slaughter it would have been if OY had woken up and said "Tornadoli is a wolf"

 

[trespoe]

Time window rules post mortem
The witness rules hardly got used. OY tried to use his witness ability to catch wolfs reacting to his outings. The others either didn't use it, or got killed early. Choosing the time window for them was tricky. I definitely gave the cultists too narrow a window, though johho got lucky and it didn't actually impede the cultists. The time window based rules need an experienced GM to set the windows, and I would only recommend trying them again with a time themed game. What I would do for the no dice witness (and I would have done it in this game if I had thought of it before the game) is to base it on the last digit of their order and the hunt order. i.e hunt at xx:y3 and witness at ww:z8, 3+8 mod 10 = 1 and a successful witness on a chance of 20% or more. This is similar to how I was choosing the wolf for the patient to remember. The patient has to guess the minute of the hunt, then it gets added to the actual minute of the hunt.

No dice rules post mortem
Players almost completely ignored the no dice rules. Neither wolf pack, nor the hunter varied from their default. The doctor did a couple of switches, but changed to the wrong method just as she started to guess the hunt right. What this meant in practice was that the GM set the result of the interactions before the game started, rather than by die rolling during the game. I much prefer this.

I would have liked to see the roles used more. To me, it seems luck real luck for a cultist or witness to see anything, but it really wasn't tested this game.

The amount of extra record keeping for the no dice rules is trivial, though anyone trying the time window type of rule needs to think about the amount of PMs that could be generated, and how to deal with it. That does have the potential to become non-trivial. I think I got the limts right, but because no-one tried to make much use of the rules, my PM box was never close to being in danger of overfilling.

mine was. Randakar and OY really know how to spam. I had to call my wife from work to get online, download the PMs, and clear out the inbox. I realized my scan order would get lost otherwise.

Doing votecounts is not trivial. After writing the RP pieces, by far the greatest proportion of my time was spent doing votecounts even though I didn't do many of them.

@Paendrag
On the apprentice, I agree the players should not be told (which I why I didn't tell them originally), but that means making it a trait in the setup. It was my mistake putting them in as a role rather than a trait. When I realised it, Euro wasn't around so I couldn't check with him how he had intended it, and I felt I had to go with the rules as written. I thought the setup was biassed to the wolves in other ways (the wolves missed 6 kills by not sending in orders, and Tornadoli still would have been in a good position to win if he had hunted Trespoe again after hunting the bless off him) so that might have been part of the way Euro balanced it.

@randakar
only 3 of those 5 were wolfs. Trespoe was doing better than that. He had 4 wolfs in at least one of his scan orders.

the packs were hunting on an ABBA pattern

the patient sees a wolf if they survive. Thats what makes the doc different from a GA and why it cant be certain. Just think how much of a slaughter it would have been if OY had woken up and said "Tornadoli is a wolf"

I was hoping OY or Rysz would wake up and give us that last name...

 

[OrangeYoshi]

All-in-all it was a really good setup and game, TAM. I'd like to suggest making the early witness time windows bigger while making the cap lower. Either that or just make it a one-off ability instead of a two-timer. The second time you use it, you'll only have a real short window with the current rules, and the game may not even last long enough to get it back up to a plausible window.

I realize that may be the point of it, but the second one seems almost useless as it is now.

 

[johho888]

I think the hunter and doc no dice rules were good and could well be used again, however I see no real problem with using a dice for this.

The time window rules I think is probably more work than they are worth and the modulo operations for last time digits seems even more complicated. I don't really see the benefit compared to the dice here (except for the pure no GM interventionalists ).