Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #8 - Institutions

[lachek]

As it's come up a few times I want to address the feedback that certain Institutions, like schools and hospitals, are more suited to being Buildings than nation-wide Institutions.

There is nothing fundamental in the game's core mechanics that prevents this. Institutions have an effect on states, and Buildings can be scripted to have the exact same effect on states. Furthermore, Buildings can take varied input goods (such as medicine for hospitals and small arms for police stations) and require varied Pop professions, such that building Hospitals could employ more Academics (Doctors) than Bureaucrats, and so on. A modder could replace any Institution in the game with the equivalent set of Buildings with no adverse side effects in a couple of hours. Buildings can require Laws in order to be constructed and have Production Methods that can only be turned on during different Laws, so all of the functionality in the current system can be ported over to the Buildings system. So why haven't we done this?

There are a number of reasons, actually. The foremost of them is that enacting a Law is a promise. If the Petit-Bourgeoisie are upset at the lack of Police and Poor Houses to keep the rabble off the streets, they'll be pleased when you enact a Law that enable these Institutions, and once enabled you have to pass a Law to abolish it to get rid of it and its administrative costs. If we instead had a Police Station building and a Poor House building then the P-Bs would be pleased once the Laws that permits you to build them are passed, but you're under no obligation to build and pay for them. This is pretty cheesy and creates a disconnect between the political gameplay and the economic gameplay.

Another, related, aspect is that Bureaucracy is intended to discourage sprawl and reward countries who choose to build tall. If you're a militaristic superpower who aggress your way across a continent, you're going to have a hard time extending all these guaranteed government services to your newly annexed lands. "Incorporation" of a state is a permanent choice of declaring a state an official core part of your nation, thereby taxing the population in exchange for extending all your Institutions to them. All this costs Bureaucracy, so smaller, tighter countries have a much easier time providing services to their population than vast empires do. Again, this dynamic doesn't work if you can just choose who gets access to how many government services and who doesn't.

The final major reason is the large amounts of frankly boring micro this would require many countries to engage in. Chances are very good that once you have a Health System you're going to want to extend its function to at least most of your states. Spamming Hospitals in every state and then keeping up on what level they are in order to ensure they provide the right amount of health care to all the people who live there sounds awesome on paper, is a terrible game experience for larger countries, and frankly isn't a very interesting choice. Now multiply this experience with all the different Institutions you'd rather have as Buildings.

Having said all this the system is very flexible, and if we find in playtest that, the above reasons notwithstanding, a certain Institution would in fact work better as a Building it is relatively easy to rework it!

 

[Wizzington]

So are unincorporated states completely useless?

They produce and consume goods in your market while costing very little to maintain, so no!

 

[lachek]

properties

Will none of these institutions cost the government money as well? For example public schools, social security, hospitals, police etc? Who is paying for all of this?

The Government Administrations that provide Bureaucracy is the cost, and it's a substantial one.

 

[Manst]

So are unincorporated states completely useless?

You get a bigger name on the map, what more would you ever want?!

 

[lachek]

That's very interesting! I'm curious, whether providing good health care will be possible in fact only for socialists like in vic2? I plan for autocratic monarchy with public schools and good health care

There are a number of different Laws that can enable the Health System Institutions, which are supported by different Interest Groups. For example, the Industrialists support a Private Health System. It's also quite common that Institutions enabled under one administration remain after that administration drastically changes, for example after an election. The new government is on the hook to support the existing Institution with its current properties, although they may be inclined to change the laws such that they operate more along their own ideology.

 

[lachek]

This comment is reserved by the Community Team for gathering Dev Responses in, for ease of reading.

Al-Khalidi said:
That's very interesting! I'm curious, whether providing good health care will be possible in fact only for socialists like in vic2? I plan for autocratic monarchy with public schools and good health care

There are a number of different Laws that can enable the Health System Institutions, which are supported by different Interest Groups. For example, the Industrialists support a Private Health System. It's also quite common that Institutions enabled under one administration remain after that administration drastically changes, for example after an election. The new government is on the hook to support the existing Institution with its current properties, although they may be inclined to change the laws such that they operate more along their own ideology.

lachek said:
properties

Palna Thoke said:
Will none of these institutions cost the government money as well? For example public schools, social security, hospitals, police etc? Who is paying for all of this?

The Government Administrations that provide Bureaucracy is the cost, and it's a substantial one.

General_WCJ said:
So are unincorporated states completely useless?

They produce and consume goods in your market while costing very little to maintain, so no!

RTCsmile said:
When I conquer a land with institutions already been established, will I be able to directly use them? Or I have to build new ones?

If you conquer land with Government Administrations, you can use these to expand your existing Institutions. But the Institutions themselves are bureaucratic and legal constructs that only make sense in the context of a particular country, so you won't be inheriting them directly by conquering land.

ImperatorLJ said:
What will modding be like for institutions? For example, can we make extra institutions to detail very specific concepts (like work safety levels for each industry)?

Yes, you can. Like Laws and Production Methods, the effects of Institutions are represented as modifiers. You can mod in more Institutions easily enough by determining what modifier effect it should have, what Laws should enable it, and what effects those Laws should have on it.

As it's come up a few times I want to address the feedback that certain Institutions, like schools and hospitals, are more suited to being Buildings than nation-wide Institutions.

There is nothing fundamental in the game's core mechanics that prevents this. Institutions have an effect on states, and Buildings can be scripted to have the exact same effect on states. Furthermore, Buildings can take varied input goods (such as medicine for hospitals and small arms for police stations) and require varied Pop professions, such that building Hospitals could employ more Academics (Doctors) than Bureaucrats, and so on. A modder could replace any Institution in the game with the equivalent set of Buildings with no adverse side effects in a couple of hours. Buildings can require Laws in order to be constructed and have Production Methods that can only be turned on during different Laws, so all of the functionality in the current system can be ported over to the Buildings system. So why haven't we done this?

There are a number of reasons, actually. The foremost of them is that enacting a Law is a promise. If the Petit-Bourgeoisie are upset at the lack of Police and Poor Houses to keep the rabble off the streets, they'll be pleased when you enact a Law that enable these Institutions, and once enabled you have to pass a Law to abolish it to get rid of it and its administrative costs. If we instead had a Police Station building and a Poor House building then the P-Bs would be pleased once the Laws that permits you to build them are passed, but you're under no obligation to build and pay for them. This is pretty cheesy and creates a disconnect between the political gameplay and the economic gameplay.

Another, related, aspect is that Bureaucracy is intended to discourage sprawl and reward countries who choose to build tall. If you're a militaristic superpower who aggress your way across a continent, you're going to have a hard time extending all these guaranteed government services to your newly annexed lands. "Incorporation" of a state is a permanent choice of declaring a state an official core part of your nation, thereby taxing the population in exchange for extending all your Institutions to them. All this costs Bureaucracy, so smaller, tighter countries have a much easier time providing services to their population than vast empires do. Again, this dynamic doesn't work if you can just choose who gets access to how many government services and who doesn't.

The final major reason is the large amounts of frankly boring micro this would require many countries to engage in. Chances are very good that once you have a Health System you're going to want to extend its function to at least most of your states. Spamming Hospitals in every state and then keeping up on what level they are in order to ensure they provide the right amount of health care to all the people who live there sounds awesome on paper, is a terrible game experience for larger countries, and frankly isn't a very interesting choice. Now multiply this experience with all the different Institutions you'd rather have as Buildings.

Having said all this the system is very flexible, and if we find in playtest that, the above reasons notwithstanding, a certain Institution would in fact work better as a Building it is relatively easy to rework it!

 

[lachek]

When I conquer a land with institutions already been established, will I be able to directly use them? Or I have to build new ones?

If you conquer land with Government Administrations, you can use these to expand your existing Institutions. But the Institutions themselves are bureaucratic and legal constructs that only make sense in the context of a particular country, so you won't be inheriting them directly by conquering land.

 

[rus-chel]

complexity breeds more complexity.
More Exel charts.
Yes, it's Vicky!

 

[David Tah]

possible release date ?

 

[Al-Khalidi]

So are unincorporated states completely useless?

You get RESOURCES I believe. Pretty useful

 

[lachek]

What will modding be like for institutions? For example, can we make extra institutions to detail very specific concepts (like work safety levels for each industry)?

Yes, you can. Like Laws and Production Methods, the effects of Institutions are represented as modifiers. You can mod in more Institutions easily enough by determining what modifier effect it should have, what Laws should enable it, and what effects those Laws should have on it.

 

[grommile]

So are unincorporated states completely useless?

You loot their resources to feed the ravening maw of your metropole like any other self-respecting imperialist.

 

[Skullt]

Will religion make more of an impact on Pops compared to Vicky2? Perhaps on assimilation?

 

[FranklyJustNess]

So if Switzerland were to pass a law that makes education public and non religious, would that change it to have a level 3 secular education?

 

[Edam42]

As it's come up a few times I want to address the feedback that certain Institutions, like schools and hospitals, are more suited to being Buildings than nation-wide Institutions.

There is nothing fundamental in the game's core mechanics that prevents this. Institutions have an effect on states, and Buildings can be scripted to have the exact same effect on states. Furthermore, Buildings can take varied input goods (such as medicine for hospitals and small arms for police stations) and require varied Pop professions, such that building Hospitals could employ more Academics (Doctors) than Bureaucrats, and so on. A modder could replace any Institution in the game with the equivalent set of Buildings with no adverse side effects in a couple of hours. Buildings can require Laws in order to be constructed and have Production Methods that can only be turned on during different Laws, so all of the functionality in the current system can be ported over to the Buildings system. So why haven't we done this?

There are a number of reasons, actually. The foremost of them is that enacting a Law is a promise. If the Petit-Bourgeoisie are upset at the lack of Police and Poor Houses to keep the rabble off the streets, they'll be pleased when you enact a Law that enable these Institutions, and once enabled you have to pass a Law to abolish it to get rid of it and its administrative costs. If we instead had a Police Station building and a Poor House building then the P-Bs would be pleased once the Laws that permits you to build them are passed, but you're under no obligation to build and pay for them. This is pretty cheesy and creates a disconnect between the political gameplay and the economic gameplay.

Another, related, aspect is that Bureaucracy is intended to discourage sprawl and reward countries who choose to build tall. If you're a militaristic superpower who aggress your way across a continent, you're going to have a hard time extending all these guaranteed government services to your newly annexed lands. "Incorporation" of a state is a permanent choice of declaring a state an official core part of your nation, thereby taxing the population in exchange for extending all your Institutions to them. All this costs Bureaucracy, so smaller, tighter countries have a much easier time providing services to their population than vast empires do. Again, this dynamic doesn't work if you can just choose who gets access to how many government services and who doesn't.

The final major reason is the large amounts of frankly boring micro this would require many countries to engage in. Chances are very good that once you have a Health System you're going to want to extend its function to at least most of your states. Spamming Hospitals in every state and then keeping up on what level they are in order to ensure they provide the right amount of health care to all the people who live there sounds awesome on paper, is a terrible game experience for larger countries, and frankly isn't a very interesting choice. Now multiply this experience with all the different Institutions you'd rather have as Buildings.

Having said all this the system is very flexible, and if we find in playtest that, the above reasons notwithstanding, a certain Institution would in fact work better as a Building it is relatively easy to rework it!

Thank you for taking the time to listen to the feedback and respond to it.

Couldn’t most of these issues be addressed simply though, such as making the buildings appear automatically in incorporated states once a law is passed, like urban centres appear after enough urbanisation is reached, and still require some bureaucracy capacity to maintain (perhaps with an inverse economy of scale to prevent sprawl). this would not require much more player involvement than the current system but allow greater discrepancy between regions and how government services can be delivered.

 

[Zalthor]

The Government Administrations that provide Bureaucracy is the cost, and it's a substantial one.

This seems very questionable. There would be additional costs with some of the institutions (such as social security, which pays a certain amount to pops that would otherwise be below the poverty line) beyond simply paying more bureaucrats to manage the new welfare system.

 

[Ololorium]

If the only cost of the Institutions is the bureaucracy costs (salary of Bureaucrats and Clerks + resources they need like paper and telephones) then I'm really confused. This makes sense for some institutions, like Conscription, but for other things like Social Security it doesn't work at all. If Social Security gives people money, the money have to come from somewhere, and it's the main cost of having Social Security, not the bureaucrat salary or paper for benefits application forms. Similarly, hospitals may need some supplies like opium, the police and the Home Affairs agents need weapons, etc. If it's not already in the game, it would be very easy to fix by assigning the new required inputs to the Administration buildings depending on the active institutions.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

I guess doctor-bureaucrats will use papers to bandage people and pens to perform surgeries, while police-bureaucrats will arrest culprits and maintain order by dropping huge rulebooks on their heads and throwing-pens as shurikens

 

[Leoreth]

Overall, I love the way this system is designed and how it integrates with the political process described in the previous DD. The political process shapes what your institutions are like, but their scale is bounded by your bureaucratic capacity, and therefore competes with the size/population of your empire and your tax income. That sounds like a compelling trade off and makes sense historically.

However, like others, I am concerned how institutions interact with the rest of your economy. The DD only states that they are "funded" with bureaucratic capacity, which has been confirmed in a dev post. I would argue to rethink this.

Now, for some cases, this makes sense: a law is passed that requires government oversight to make sure the new regulations are followed. We can imagine that bureaucrats oversee if safety regulations are followed, or that they censor the press etc. I could even operate under a broad definition of bureaucrat that includes judges etc. in such a framework, because they're all part of the administrative work.

However, some institutions clearly provide material benefits to the population, either in the form of direct transfers of money, or by establishing and running a service. Since the rest of the game simulates the economy so accurately, it would be strange if that weren't the case for government provided services.

1. We know there are institutions that provide money to some pops, such as unemployment benefits. Maybe similar transfers exist with e.g. retirement benefits etc. I don't think it's satisfying that these programs are "paid for" with their administrative costs, because where is the money being transferred coming from? You indirectly incur costs paying for the bureaucrats creating the bureaucratic capacity, but this money goes into their pockets, not the recipients of those programs. Please confirm that there is an item in your budget for the recipients of benefits like this.
2. Some institutions are carried out by professions that do not map onto "bureaucrat" at all. Your police force should require servicemen, your healthcare system should require medical professionals, and your education system should require teachers. This isn't just a concern for simulation or "realism", it has an impact on your nation and your economy as well: first of all, these positions require different qualifications than bureaucrats, and your country should be able to fill them to actually make use of the institution. Being able to employ bureaucrats does not mean you are able to employ sufficient medical doctors, and the latter was historically often the more prohibitive factor in running an expansive healthcare system. Additionally, all those jobs have the quality that they need to be local. I understand the simplification that bureaucrats can be all in the capital or wherever in your empire, but police forces and doctors and teachers have to be where they are needed. This is also important for local economies as well: it creates another source of wealth in your states that cannot be centralised away to the capital.
   Now I understand the clarification that you do not want to introduce the micro of spamming hospitals and schools in all your states, but what if those buildings were created automatically based on your institution levels? This wouldn't be a novel idea, because Urban Centers already come into existence based on external factors without any explicit decision.
3. Same with the resource consumption from some of these institutions. A nation running an expansive public healthcare system surely should create some demand? Can be modeled/solved in similar ways as described in point 2.

I think this is important specifically because right now it is unclear if a integrating institutions with the economy more tightly than described here would be possible with modding. Even if you decide against it, please make sure to provide ways for modders to make institutions cost money, resources, or require buildings to run.